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	<title>Comments on: Tribe gets pitcher to complete Shoppach trade</title>
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	<link>http://www.ohiomm.com/blogs/tribe_matters/2009/12/21/tribe-gets-pitcher-to-complete-shoppach-trade/</link>
	<description>Indians, Aeros and Major League Baseball</description>
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		<title>By: BTL</title>
		<link>http://www.ohiomm.com/blogs/tribe_matters/2009/12/21/tribe-gets-pitcher-to-complete-shoppach-trade/comment-page-1/#comment-1359</link>
		<dc:creator>BTL</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 12 Jan 2010 03:59:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ohiomm.com/blogs/tribe_matters/?p=2683#comment-1359</guid>
		<description>What do I think of Talbot for Shoppach? I&#039;m suddenly getting very sleepy.

The time to trade him was a year ago. Someone would&#039;ve been dumb enough to trade a true prospect for him. We knew he wasn&#039;t the long term guy. That&#039;s Santana. We already had an all star back there part time in Martinez. It was suicide by stupidity not to realize that 2008 was Kelly&#039;s career year. Any guy who fans that much, walks that little, is not going to sustain. It just doesn&#039;t happen.  They dumped Russell Branyan in a minute and he&#039;s twice the hitter Shoppach will ever be.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What do I think of Talbot for Shoppach? I&#8217;m suddenly getting very sleepy.</p>
<p>The time to trade him was a year ago. Someone would&#8217;ve been dumb enough to trade a true prospect for him. We knew he wasn&#8217;t the long term guy. That&#8217;s Santana. We already had an all star back there part time in Martinez. It was suicide by stupidity not to realize that 2008 was Kelly&#8217;s career year. Any guy who fans that much, walks that little, is not going to sustain. It just doesn&#8217;t happen.  They dumped Russell Branyan in a minute and he&#8217;s twice the hitter Shoppach will ever be.</p>
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		<title>By: BTL</title>
		<link>http://www.ohiomm.com/blogs/tribe_matters/2009/12/21/tribe-gets-pitcher-to-complete-shoppach-trade/comment-page-1/#comment-1358</link>
		<dc:creator>BTL</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 12 Jan 2010 03:54:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ohiomm.com/blogs/tribe_matters/?p=2683#comment-1358</guid>
		<description>Mr. True Fan....I&#039;m gonna figure you aren&#039;t too familiar with the minor league guys.  The Phillies got two healthy, top shelf pitching prospects for Lee. in Phillippe Aumont and Juan Ramirez. The guy the Tribe got for Lee (Knapp) may indeed have better stuff, but that&#039;s pretty irrelevant since the arm in question is expected to fall off soon. Seriously, the kid&#039;s dynamite but his arm health is a bigger question mark than the national healthcare bill. The other guys the Indians picked up are a dime a dozen. Not dogging them mind you. I like Lou Marson just fine as a part time catcher, but the take just isn&#039;t good enough for Cliff Lee, ESPECIALLY when you trade him in the middle of a pennant race. 
Sure, the Jays got more for Halladay, as they should. We needed to be good enough to in negotiation to get just one of the guys who ended up in THAT deal for Lee (Taylor or Drabek).
But we&#039;re weren&#039;t, so what we&#039;ll have is another &quot;coulda shoulda woulda&quot; in Knapp, and 2 or 3 more Ben Francisco types in Marson, etc.

Bad management. Not from the dugout. From the front office.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Mr. True Fan&#8230;.I&#8217;m gonna figure you aren&#8217;t too familiar with the minor league guys.  The Phillies got two healthy, top shelf pitching prospects for Lee. in Phillippe Aumont and Juan Ramirez. The guy the Tribe got for Lee (Knapp) may indeed have better stuff, but that&#8217;s pretty irrelevant since the arm in question is expected to fall off soon. Seriously, the kid&#8217;s dynamite but his arm health is a bigger question mark than the national healthcare bill. The other guys the Indians picked up are a dime a dozen. Not dogging them mind you. I like Lou Marson just fine as a part time catcher, but the take just isn&#8217;t good enough for Cliff Lee, ESPECIALLY when you trade him in the middle of a pennant race.<br />
Sure, the Jays got more for Halladay, as they should. We needed to be good enough to in negotiation to get just one of the guys who ended up in THAT deal for Lee (Taylor or Drabek).<br />
But we&#8217;re weren&#8217;t, so what we&#8217;ll have is another &#8220;coulda shoulda woulda&#8221; in Knapp, and 2 or 3 more Ben Francisco types in Marson, etc.</p>
<p>Bad management. Not from the dugout. From the front office.</p>
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		<title>By: Mark Tafel</title>
		<link>http://www.ohiomm.com/blogs/tribe_matters/2009/12/21/tribe-gets-pitcher-to-complete-shoppach-trade/comment-page-1/#comment-1344</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark Tafel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 25 Dec 2009 15:38:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ohiomm.com/blogs/tribe_matters/?p=2683#comment-1344</guid>
		<description>I have decided to become a relentless pursuer of equality in Major League Baseball.  I have delayed my mission because I have been optimistic about the Tribe&#039;s chances to make it to the World Series for many years now.  The current owners delivered on their promise, 8 years ago, to put a competitive team on the field that the fans could watch develop into a contender -- Sizemore, Hafner, Martinez, Sabbathia, Lee, Carmona, Blake led the charge and we were up 3-1 against the Red Sox in the ALCS when the roof fell in.  That was fine, as it was.  But the recent dismantling of the team does not appear to have netted the same caliber player as the former round, and it seems clear to me that finally, the run that began with the Jacobs in the early &#039;90&#039;s, a beautifully,entertaining and thrilling run, is over.  Done.  Buried.  Tribe fans will now have to succumb to the witnessing  the mediocrity that is second-tier MLB whose major purpose is develop talent for the first-tier MLB - namely the Yankees, Red Sox, Angels, Mets, and Dodgers (Chicago Cubs should be in this group, but that is a subject to another editorial).  

As we head for January, which teams are dominating the off-season headlines?  The first-tier group.  Which teams were in the post-season and will continue to be in post-season play for years to come?  The first-tier group.  What are the Tribe&#039;s chances for joining this group anytime soon? Zero. Shutout. Rainout. 

Somehow, through the guidance of Mark Shapiro and staff, the Indians, up until now, have been able to stave off mediocrity -- but now, I am afraid, we are heading back to the Indians of my childhood and beyond, 1959-1992.  This return to mediocrity was revealed to me when I went to the Metrodome in September to see my Tribe.  I felt so disengaged throughout the game, and later I  identified the cause of why.  I had come to see the Indians play the Twins, but  I did not recognize my team at all -- all of the Indian starters, with the exceptions of Jhonny Peralta and Shin Soo Choo, were just names to me, players filling a roster and debuting for next season.  No one besides La Porta had been heralded as the next possible  future Hall of Famer.  And the Twins chances for post-season play were, at the time, very slim at best.  It struck me during a late Gomez at bat that it was Tori Hunter&#039;s flight to free agency that made Gomez&#039;s opportunity possible, and I missed Tori Hunter and his zeal for the game. Last night&#039;s game for me was like attending a class reunion and you spend all of the time in a phone booth calling all of the people who you truly miss and didn&#039;t bother to show up.
     
It was a mid-September game, and I was overwhelmed by a sense of futility over the activity on the field, too. Sure, there were enough &quot;major league&quot; put outs and at bats to feel glad and almost privledged that you came.  But the futility struck me hard. Mourneau out, and even the AAA replacement can&#039;t make it out of batting practice without an injury.  It was as though the war had stopped, treaties had been signed, yet unconsequential squirmishes were taking place like the one in the Metrodome because no one bothered to tell the combatants that everything had been settled without them.  As a fan, there was nothing worth getting slightly obnoxious about.  The usual impulses to scream something rousing were squelched by their failing to pass the so, what? test.  Twin fans last night could not possibly be on edge about a pennant race.  No thunderous moans were heard when the scoreboard reported the Tigers come-from-behind victory. And I have been in the Metrodome in late September when the AL Central crown was within reach and the atmosphere was electric.

Both teams are condemned to mediocrity by the way MLB is set up.  MLB has lost a fan (me), a long-time fan who bawled like a twelve year old when the Indians traded Lee and Martinez at the end of July.  All we want is a legitimate basis to dream of post season play within a two to three year period.  MLB has made this impossible.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I have decided to become a relentless pursuer of equality in Major League Baseball.  I have delayed my mission because I have been optimistic about the Tribe&#8217;s chances to make it to the World Series for many years now.  The current owners delivered on their promise, 8 years ago, to put a competitive team on the field that the fans could watch develop into a contender &#8212; Sizemore, Hafner, Martinez, Sabbathia, Lee, Carmona, Blake led the charge and we were up 3-1 against the Red Sox in the ALCS when the roof fell in.  That was fine, as it was.  But the recent dismantling of the team does not appear to have netted the same caliber player as the former round, and it seems clear to me that finally, the run that began with the Jacobs in the early &#8217;90&#8242;s, a beautifully,entertaining and thrilling run, is over.  Done.  Buried.  Tribe fans will now have to succumb to the witnessing  the mediocrity that is second-tier MLB whose major purpose is develop talent for the first-tier MLB &#8211; namely the Yankees, Red Sox, Angels, Mets, and Dodgers (Chicago Cubs should be in this group, but that is a subject to another editorial).  </p>
<p>As we head for January, which teams are dominating the off-season headlines?  The first-tier group.  Which teams were in the post-season and will continue to be in post-season play for years to come?  The first-tier group.  What are the Tribe&#8217;s chances for joining this group anytime soon? Zero. Shutout. Rainout. </p>
<p>Somehow, through the guidance of Mark Shapiro and staff, the Indians, up until now, have been able to stave off mediocrity &#8212; but now, I am afraid, we are heading back to the Indians of my childhood and beyond, 1959-1992.  This return to mediocrity was revealed to me when I went to the Metrodome in September to see my Tribe.  I felt so disengaged throughout the game, and later I  identified the cause of why.  I had come to see the Indians play the Twins, but  I did not recognize my team at all &#8212; all of the Indian starters, with the exceptions of Jhonny Peralta and Shin Soo Choo, were just names to me, players filling a roster and debuting for next season.  No one besides La Porta had been heralded as the next possible  future Hall of Famer.  And the Twins chances for post-season play were, at the time, very slim at best.  It struck me during a late Gomez at bat that it was Tori Hunter&#8217;s flight to free agency that made Gomez&#8217;s opportunity possible, and I missed Tori Hunter and his zeal for the game. Last night&#8217;s game for me was like attending a class reunion and you spend all of the time in a phone booth calling all of the people who you truly miss and didn&#8217;t bother to show up.</p>
<p>It was a mid-September game, and I was overwhelmed by a sense of futility over the activity on the field, too. Sure, there were enough &#8220;major league&#8221; put outs and at bats to feel glad and almost privledged that you came.  But the futility struck me hard. Mourneau out, and even the AAA replacement can&#8217;t make it out of batting practice without an injury.  It was as though the war had stopped, treaties had been signed, yet unconsequential squirmishes were taking place like the one in the Metrodome because no one bothered to tell the combatants that everything had been settled without them.  As a fan, there was nothing worth getting slightly obnoxious about.  The usual impulses to scream something rousing were squelched by their failing to pass the so, what? test.  Twin fans last night could not possibly be on edge about a pennant race.  No thunderous moans were heard when the scoreboard reported the Tigers come-from-behind victory. And I have been in the Metrodome in late September when the AL Central crown was within reach and the atmosphere was electric.</p>
<p>Both teams are condemned to mediocrity by the way MLB is set up.  MLB has lost a fan (me), a long-time fan who bawled like a twelve year old when the Indians traded Lee and Martinez at the end of July.  All we want is a legitimate basis to dream of post season play within a two to three year period.  MLB has made this impossible.</p>
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		<title>By: True Fan</title>
		<link>http://www.ohiomm.com/blogs/tribe_matters/2009/12/21/tribe-gets-pitcher-to-complete-shoppach-trade/comment-page-1/#comment-1340</link>
		<dc:creator>True Fan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 22 Dec 2009 17:41:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ohiomm.com/blogs/tribe_matters/?p=2683#comment-1340</guid>
		<description>BTL - are you kidding - Philly got three A ball pitchers only 1 of which is considered a true prospect, in the bullpen at that - Toronto got something, Philly did not.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>BTL &#8211; are you kidding &#8211; Philly got three A ball pitchers only 1 of which is considered a true prospect, in the bullpen at that &#8211; Toronto got something, Philly did not.</p>
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		<title>By: canton  terrier</title>
		<link>http://www.ohiomm.com/blogs/tribe_matters/2009/12/21/tribe-gets-pitcher-to-complete-shoppach-trade/comment-page-1/#comment-1339</link>
		<dc:creator>canton  terrier</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 22 Dec 2009 14:04:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ohiomm.com/blogs/tribe_matters/?p=2683#comment-1339</guid>
		<description>What did you think of the return for Kelly Shoppach, Mitch Talbot?
He’s been spotty over his minor league career, and at age 27 next season, he’s not exactly a phenom.
That said, he’s been a solid ground-ball pitcher, with a 1.50 ratio. With Cabrera and Valbuena up the middle, that’s not a bad thing to be. Tribe management would do well to assemble a stable of grounder-hurlers now that it has removed the heavy legs from short and second.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What did you think of the return for Kelly Shoppach, Mitch Talbot?<br />
He’s been spotty over his minor league career, and at age 27 next season, he’s not exactly a phenom.<br />
That said, he’s been a solid ground-ball pitcher, with a 1.50 ratio. With Cabrera and Valbuena up the middle, that’s not a bad thing to be. Tribe management would do well to assemble a stable of grounder-hurlers now that it has removed the heavy legs from short and second.</p>
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		<title>By: BTL</title>
		<link>http://www.ohiomm.com/blogs/tribe_matters/2009/12/21/tribe-gets-pitcher-to-complete-shoppach-trade/comment-page-1/#comment-1337</link>
		<dc:creator>BTL</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 22 Dec 2009 04:31:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ohiomm.com/blogs/tribe_matters/?p=2683#comment-1337</guid>
		<description>Too bad the front office figured out what Shoppach was about a year too late. Speaking of mismanagement of personnel, did anyone notice how much the Phillies got for Cliff Lee? A true blue chip pitching prospect (with a healthy arm even, unlike the low A ball lefty we got).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Too bad the front office figured out what Shoppach was about a year too late. Speaking of mismanagement of personnel, did anyone notice how much the Phillies got for Cliff Lee? A true blue chip pitching prospect (with a healthy arm even, unlike the low A ball lefty we got).</p>
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