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	<title>Beside the Point: The Blog by Patrick McManamon &#187; Cliff Lee</title>
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	<link>http://www.ohiomm.com/blogs/mcmanamon</link>
	<description>Musings on the world of sports</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Sun, 31 Jan 2010 22:41:58 +0000</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>Nobody says it better</title>
		<link>http://www.ohiomm.com/blogs/mcmanamon/2009/10/29/nobody-says-it-better/</link>
		<comments>http://www.ohiomm.com/blogs/mcmanamon/2009/10/29/nobody-says-it-better/#comments</comments>
		<pubDate>Thu, 29 Oct 2009 17:58:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<dc:creator>Pat McManamon</dc:creator>
				<category><![CDATA[Cliff Lee]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[McManamon]]></category>

		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ohiomm.com/blogs/mcmanamon/?p=4623</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Just re-read Posnanski, and you have to love this quote from Charlie Manuel about Cliff Lee. It is classic Manuel, no?
&#034;Most of the time when he starts a game, and he&#039;s in control of the game, and everything around it he&#039;s controlling &#8212; he&#039;s throwing strikes and he&#039;s getting the ball, what I call he [...]]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p></p><p>Just re-read Posnanski, and you have to love this quote from Charlie Manuel about Cliff Lee. It is classic Manuel, no?</p>
<blockquote><p>&#034;Most of the time when he starts a game, and he&#039;s in control of the game, and everything around it he&#039;s controlling &#8212; he&#039;s throwing strikes and he&#039;s getting the ball, what I call he handles the flow of the game, if you know what I mean. Everybody about it. The flow of the game, the way the game goes.</p>
<p>&#034;Not only does he have command of the game, but he has the flow of the game. To me he sets the tone by his rhythm, getting the ball back, and he knows what he&#039;s going to throw. I like the way he pitches. I like everything about how he goes about it. But that&#039;s part of his success, too, is the fact that&#039;s how he handles the game.&#034;</p></blockquote>
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		<slash:comments>11</slash:comments>
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		<title>Cliff Lee&#039;s oblivious to it all</title>
		<link>http://www.ohiomm.com/blogs/mcmanamon/2009/10/29/cliff-lees-obvlivious-to-it-all/</link>
		<comments>http://www.ohiomm.com/blogs/mcmanamon/2009/10/29/cliff-lees-obvlivious-to-it-all/#comments</comments>
		<pubDate>Thu, 29 Oct 2009 17:34:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<dc:creator>Pat McManamon</dc:creator>
				<category><![CDATA[Adriana Lima]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Cliff Lee]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Indians]]></category>

		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ohiomm.com/blogs/mcmanamon/?p=4620</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[OK … so Cliff Lee won the first game of the World Series and looked pretty good doing it.
OK … he looked great doing it.
OK … he dominated. I mean &#8230; 10 strikeouts &#8230; a complete game, the first in a World Series since 1995. Pretty good.
And … yes … he used to pitch for [...]]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p></p><p>OK … so Cliff Lee won the first game of the World Series and looked pretty good doing it.</p>
<p>OK … he looked great doing it.</p>
<p>OK … he dominated. I mean &#8230; 10 strikeouts &#8230; a complete game, the first in a World Series since 1995. Pretty good.</p>
<p>And … yes … he used to pitch for the Indians.</p>
<p>And yes, the Indians might have gift-wrapped the Phillies their second World Series title in a row (though they do have some other good players and a pretty good mana … umm … never mind).</p>
<p>But while <a href="http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2009/writers/joe_posnanski/10/29/cliff.lee/index.html?eref=sihp">Joe Posnanski marvels at Lee&#039;s lack of nerves,</a> we in Cleveland understand what we saw. Because we know that Lee is just &#034;out there&#034; enough to be able to shrug off nerves in his first World Series game.</p>
<p>It&#039;s what he does.</p>
<p>At least it&#039;s what he&#039;s done the last two seasons.</p>
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		<slash:comments>2</slash:comments>
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		<title>The new Steve Carlton used to pitch in Cleveland</title>
		<link>http://www.ohiomm.com/blogs/mcmanamon/2009/10/19/the-new-steve-carlton-used-to-pitch-in-cleveland/</link>
		<comments>http://www.ohiomm.com/blogs/mcmanamon/2009/10/19/the-new-steve-carlton-used-to-pitch-in-cleveland/#comments</comments>
		<pubDate>Mon, 19 Oct 2009 18:30:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<dc:creator>Pat McManamon</dc:creator>
				<category><![CDATA[Carlos Carrasco]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Cliff Lee]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Indians]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[McManamon]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Cleveland Indians]]></category>

		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ohiomm.com/blogs/mcmanamon/?p=4533</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[That guy who pitched the shutout for the Philadelphia Phillies last night was some guy named Lee. Said Pedro Martinez of him: “Cliff is some kind of phenom.  It’s just something beautiful to watch. From the outside, especially, when you can see the little details. See, pitching is like an art. And Cliff is actually [...]]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p></p><p>That guy who pitched the shutout for the Philadelphia Phillies last night was some guy named Lee. Said Pedro Martinez of him: “Cliff is some kind of phenom.  It’s just something beautiful to watch. From the outside, especially, when you can see the little details. <a href="http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/news;_ylt=Ao_Fz4KRYREFc4wTAk5oQc45nYcB?slug=jp-lee101909&amp;prov=yhoo&amp;type=lgns">See, pitching is like an art. And Cliff is actually doing that like one of the best.”</a><br />
Carlos Carrasco better be able to pitch.</p>
<p>How good was Lee? Here&#039;s his pitch chart (thanks to <a href="http://www.brooksbaseball.net/index.php?content=home">brooksbaseball.net</a>):</p>
<p><img class="aligncenter size-full wp-image-4534" title="cliff lee 1" src="http://www.ohiomm.com/blogs/mcmanamon/wp-content/uploads/2009/10/cliff-lee-1.bmp" alt="cliff lee 1" /></p>
<p>And here&#039;s another chart showing how he changed speeds:</p>
<p><img title="cliff lee 2" src="http://www.ohiomm.com/blogs/mcmanamon/wp-content/uploads/2009/10/cliff-lee-2.bmp" alt="cliff lee 2" /></p>
<p>Yes, he was pretty good.</p>
<p>Here’s <a href="http://www.brooksbaseball.net/pfx/index.php?month=10&amp;day=18&amp;year=2009&amp;game=gid_2009_10_18_lanmlb_phimlb_1%2F&amp;pitchSel=424324.xml&amp;prevGame=gid_2009_10_18_lanmlb_phimlb_1%2F&amp;prevDate=1018">a whole page of kind of cool charts and things about Lee’s game,</a> thanks to PitchFX and Brooks.</p>
<p>Carlos Carrasco best be able to pitch.</p>
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		<slash:comments>15</slash:comments>
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		<title>You might have heard of these guys</title>
		<link>http://www.ohiomm.com/blogs/mcmanamon/2009/10/08/you-might-have-heard-of-these-guys/</link>
		<comments>http://www.ohiomm.com/blogs/mcmanamon/2009/10/08/you-might-have-heard-of-these-guys/#comments</comments>
		<pubDate>Thu, 08 Oct 2009 15:36:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<dc:creator>Pat McManamon</dc:creator>
				<category><![CDATA[Braylon Edwards]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Browns]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[CC Sabathia]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Cliff Lee]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Indians]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[MLB]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[McManamon]]></category>

		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ohiomm.com/blogs/mcmanamon/?p=4414</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[CC Sabathia wins the first game for the Yankees. Cliff Lee pitches a complete game for Philadelphia. Braylon Edwards heads to the Jets. Only from Cleveland.
]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p></p><p>CC Sabathia wins the first game for the Yankees. Cliff Lee pitches a complete game for Philadelphia. Braylon Edwards heads to the Jets. Only from Cleveland.</p>
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		<slash:comments>2</slash:comments>
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		<title>Some numbers related to the Indians</title>
		<link>http://www.ohiomm.com/blogs/mcmanamon/2009/08/27/some-numbers-related-to-the-indians/</link>
		<comments>http://www.ohiomm.com/blogs/mcmanamon/2009/08/27/some-numbers-related-to-the-indians/#comments</comments>
		<pubDate>Thu, 27 Aug 2009 16:28:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<dc:creator>Pat McManamon</dc:creator>
				<category><![CDATA[Carlos Carrasco]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Cliff Lee]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Indians]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[McManamon]]></category>

		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ohiomm.com/blogs/mcmanamon/?p=4038</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Carlos Carrasco is 4-1 with a 3.57 ERA with Columbus since he was acquired in the Cliff Lee trade. Carrasco has six walks and 33 strikeouts in 35 1/3 innings, and opponents are hitting .205 against him.  This sounds like the work of a future ace. Only problem is the ace the Indians traded – [...]]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p></p><p>Carlos Carrasco is 4-1 with a 3.57 ERA with Columbus since he was acquired in the Cliff Lee trade. Carrasco has six walks and 33 strikeouts in 35 1/3 innings, and opponents are hitting .205 against him.  This sounds like the work of a future ace. Only problem is the ace the Indians traded – Cliff Lee – is 5-0 with a 0.68 ERA for Philadelphia since he was acquired for Carrasco (and others). The Indians traded an ace in the hole in hopes that they’ll pull an ace off the stack. Maybe it’ll work. Carrasco has done extremely well since he joined Columbus.</p>
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		<slash:comments>0</slash:comments>
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		<title>One team is happy with the trade</title>
		<link>http://www.ohiomm.com/blogs/mcmanamon/2009/08/20/one-team-is-happy-with-the-trade/</link>
		<comments>http://www.ohiomm.com/blogs/mcmanamon/2009/08/20/one-team-is-happy-with-the-trade/#comments</comments>
		<pubDate>Thu, 20 Aug 2009 16:57:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<dc:creator>Pat McManamon</dc:creator>
				<category><![CDATA[Cliff Lee]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Indians]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[McManamon]]></category>

		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ohiomm.com/blogs/mcmanamon/?p=3926</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Cliff Lee has had four starts in Philadelphia. He’s thrown two complete games, pitched seven innings in one game and eight in the other two. In going 4-0 for the Phillies on Wednesday, Lee threw 106 pitches, 81 strikes, and struck out a career-high 11.
These guys the Indians acquired best pan out.
]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p></p><p>Cliff Lee has had four starts in Philadelphia. He’s thrown two complete games, pitched seven innings in one game and eight in the other two. In going 4-0 for the Phillies on Wednesday, Lee threw 106 pitches, 81 strikes, and struck out a career-high 11.</p>
<p>These guys the Indians acquired best pan out.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<slash:comments>3</slash:comments>
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		<title>Key to Indians moves with Lee and (possibly) Martinez? Follow the money</title>
		<link>http://www.ohiomm.com/blogs/mcmanamon/2009/07/31/key-to-indians-moves-with-lee-and-possibly-martinez-follow-the-money/</link>
		<comments>http://www.ohiomm.com/blogs/mcmanamon/2009/07/31/key-to-indians-moves-with-lee-and-possibly-martinez-follow-the-money/#comments</comments>
		<pubDate>Fri, 31 Jul 2009 05:15:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<dc:creator>Pat McManamon</dc:creator>
				<category><![CDATA[Cliff Lee]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Indians]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[McManamon]]></category>

		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ohiomm.com/blogs/mcmanamon/?p=3713</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Peter Gammons wrote about the possible Victor Martinez trade in his Insider column for ESPN, and he wrote as if it was a fait accompli. Gammons also examined the Cliff Lee trade, and when Gammons examines a trade it&#039;s worth listening because he is the premier baseball writer of our generation. I&#039;ll link to it [...]]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p></p><p>Peter Gammons wrote about the possible Victor Martinez trade in his Insider column for ESPN, and he wrote as if it was a fait accompli. Gammons also examined the Cliff Lee trade, and when Gammons examines a trade it&#039;s worth listening because he is the premier baseball writer of our generation. I&#039;ll link to it <a href="http://insider.espn.go.com/espn/blog/index?name=gammons_peter">here,</a> but  remember it&#039;s an item that requires a cash payment.</p>
<p>In his assessment, Gammons writes that the teams with the highest payrolls in each division now lead each division. He said (as I did <a href="http://www.ohio.com/sports/52030472.html">in Thursday&#039;s Beacon Journal)</a> that the Indians weren&#039;t ordered to dump payroll, but they can see what the payroll will be and acted accordingly. Without getting rid of salaries, they would not have been able to supplement next season&#039;s roster. At. All.</p>
<p>He points out the Indians are down about 6,000 per game in attendance. Do the math. Six thousand times 81 games times (let&#039;s guess) $20 per ticket = lost revenue of $9.72 million. That&#039;s without taking into account lost concessions, lost marketing deals, lost sponsorships, etc. If the ticket drop alone is almost $10 million, what is the real loss for this season? And … next season is expected to be tougher.</p>
<p>Sports leagues rode the gravy train for a while. Now the recession is hitting them. Hard. </p>
<p>Gammons&#039; conclusion is that teams like the Yankees and Red Sox, because of their revenues, can always think of next year. When you&#039;re the Indians or Rays, you think (Gammons&#039; words) &#034;next window.&#034;</p>
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		<slash:comments>13</slash:comments>
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		<title>How did the Cliff Lee trade play in Peoria</title>
		<link>http://www.ohiomm.com/blogs/mcmanamon/2009/07/30/how-did-the-cliff-lee-trade-play-in-peoria/</link>
		<comments>http://www.ohiomm.com/blogs/mcmanamon/2009/07/30/how-did-the-cliff-lee-trade-play-in-peoria/#comments</comments>
		<pubDate>Thu, 30 Jul 2009 16:00:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<dc:creator>Pat McManamon</dc:creator>
				<category><![CDATA[Cliff Lee]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Indians]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Mark Shapiro]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[McManamon]]></category>

		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ohiomm.com/blogs/mcmanamon/?p=3707</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Here&#039;s some national takes on the Indians trade of Cliff Lee.
General consensus is that though the Indians got some talent, they didn&#039;t get enough for the reigning Cy Young winner, whom they traded for the second year in a row.  Ahem.
SI was positive about the trade. &#034;Those four players should quickly help the depleted Indians [...]]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p></p><p>Here&#039;s some national takes on the Indians trade of Cliff Lee.</p>
<p>General consensus is that though the Indians got some talent, they didn&#039;t get enough for the reigning Cy Young winner, whom they traded for the second year in a row.  Ahem.</p>
<p>SI was positive about the trade. <a href="http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2009/writers/ted_keith/07/29/lee.phillies/index.html#?eref=T1">&#034;Those four players should quickly help the depleted Indians retool in what has been, along with the NL West, the most mediocre division in baseball in recent years (both of those divisions have placed four different teams in the postseason over the past three years).&#034; </a></p>
<p>ESPN&#039;s Jayson Stark said the Phillies did not even ask about Lee until this week and were surprised at the Indians interest in trading him. That is quite a change from the previous statements that the Indians had to be bowled over to make a trade.  Wrote Stark: &#034;The Indians have done extensive studies of deals like this and found that teams which concentrate on &#039;big league-ready&#039; prospects as the centerpieces of these trades often make out the worst. <a href="http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/columns/story?columnist=stark_jayson&amp;id=4364642">Cleveland aims for upside &#8212; and it ranked 18-year-old smokeballer Jason Knapp as having the highest ceiling of any arm in the Phillies&#039; system, including (Kyle) Drabek&#039;s.&#034;</a></p>
<p>Meanwhile, the Phillies players <a href="http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/news;_ylt=AmX9Ws3lO54yn8ELywC.LP8RvLYF?slug=ap-phillies-indianstrade&amp;prov=ap&amp;type=lgns">gave their General Manager a standing ovation </a>when he walked into the clubhouse Wednesday night.</p>
<p>Fox&#039;s Gerry Fraley, one of the best baseball writers in the country, wrote: <a href="http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/9869240/Phillies-make-the-right-deal-in-trading-for-Lee">&#034;Ruben Amaro Jr., Philadelphia&#039;s rookie general manager, earned the National League executive-of-the-year award Wednesday.&#034; </a>He adds: &#034;For Cleveland, Knapp is the key to the deal. Knapp has unharnessed power, but he is also 18 years old and in the low Class A South Atlantic League. Many potential pitfalls await in his development.&#034;</p>
<p>And letsgotribe.com offers this about these kind of trades that we in Cleveland have become all too accustomed to seeing: <a href="http://www.letsgotribe.com/2009/7/29/968364/trading-cliff-lee-and-other">&#034;They work, and nobody in the business does them better than Shapiro.</a>  The Indians have problems, maybe systemic failures, maybe incurable incompetencies.  But this isn&#039;t one of them.  There is no question that deals like this have been highly effective for the Indians, even if little else has gone right.&#034;</p>
<p>Finally, fangraphs.com states simply: <a href="http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/cliff-lee-to-philadelphia">&#034;Sorry Cleveland &#8211; you got hosed here.</a> This is just not a good deal for the Indians in any way, shape, or form. Ruben Amaro just cleaned Mark Shapiro’s clock on this trade.&#034;</p>
<p>For crying out loud.</p>
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		<slash:comments>23</slash:comments>
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		<item>
		<title>Will they or won&#039;t they?</title>
		<link>http://www.ohiomm.com/blogs/mcmanamon/2009/07/29/will-they-or-wont-they/</link>
		<comments>http://www.ohiomm.com/blogs/mcmanamon/2009/07/29/will-they-or-wont-they/#comments</comments>
		<pubDate>Wed, 29 Jul 2009 16:08:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<dc:creator>Pat McManamon</dc:creator>
				<category><![CDATA[Cliff Lee]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Indians]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[McManamon]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Victor Martinez]]></category>

		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ohiomm.com/blogs/mcmanamon/?p=3690</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Will they make a trade or won&#039;t they? Various reports have the Indians all over the board in possibly dealing Cliff Lee or Victor Martinez. ESPN said the Indians have been very &#034;aggressive&#034; in trade talks about the two. SI says the chances for trading Lee and Victor Martinez have risen. Others have the Indians [...]]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p></p><p>Will they make a trade or won&#039;t they? Various reports have the Indians all over the board in possibly dealing Cliff Lee or Victor Martinez. <a href="http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=4362115">ESPN said </a>the Indians have been very &#034;aggressive&#034; in trade talks about the two. <a href="http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2009/writers/jon_heyman/07/29/trade.talk/1.html">SI says </a>the chances for trading Lee and Victor Martinez have risen. Others have the Indians probably not doing a deal. <a href="http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2009/baseball/mlb/07/29/phillies.lee.ap/index.html">The Associated Press reports </a>that the Phillies have made an offer for Lee (but it doesn&#039;t include Kyle Drabek, which would be my starting point).</p>
<p>The more I ponder, the more I think trading Lee would not be the best course of action. Yes, it can bring some young talent in return. But pitchers like Lee &#8212; and he&#039;s been incredibly effective &#8212; do not come around. He has raised his skills to be among the elite in the game, and he can anchor a rotation.</p>
<p>When the season started, I didn&#039;t think he could do that two years in a row. He has. His numbers this season are almost every bit as good as last &#8212; except for the won-lost record, which is largely a product of run support. All those facts could in fact be an argument for trading him, that his value will never be higher. I get that.</p>
<p>But Lee is under the Indians control next season, with a contract worth $9 million. Yes, the Indians are going to take a financial hit this season. But that hit should not be enough to trade an ace. Never say never of course. The Indians attitude seems to be that they&#039;d have to be bowled over to make a trade, and that&#039;s the right one.</p>
<p>It just seems that if their hopes are to compete in 2010, then Lee would and should be part of the puzzle.</p>
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		<slash:comments>5</slash:comments>
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		<title>Lot of smoke regarding possible trades of Lee and Martinez</title>
		<link>http://www.ohiomm.com/blogs/mcmanamon/2009/07/23/lot-of-smoke-regarding-possible-trades-of-lee-and-martinez/</link>
		<comments>http://www.ohiomm.com/blogs/mcmanamon/2009/07/23/lot-of-smoke-regarding-possible-trades-of-lee-and-martinez/#comments</comments>
		<pubDate>Thu, 23 Jul 2009 16:00:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<dc:creator>Pat McManamon</dc:creator>
				<category><![CDATA[Cliff Lee]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Indians]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[McManamon]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Victor Martinez]]></category>

		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ohiomm.com/blogs/mcmanamon/?p=3627</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Has anyone noticed that Pittsburgh has become a farm team for the Boston Red Sox? Jason Bay went there last year, this season it’s Adam LaRoche. Next season who will it be?
Meanwhile, there&#039;s a lot of smoke out there about the Indians, which means there might be a fire somewhere. FOX points out the Indians [...]]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p></p><p>Has anyone noticed that Pittsburgh has become a farm team for the Boston Red Sox? Jason Bay went there last year, this season it’s Adam LaRoche. Next season who will it be?</p>
<p>Meanwhile, there&#039;s a lot of smoke out there about the Indians, which means there might be a fire somewhere. FOX points out <a href="http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/9839180/MLB-buzz:-News-and-notes-from-the-trade-market">the Indians thinking is changing,</a> which indicates they might be losing their reluctance to make a trade. it lists several teams pursuing Cliff Lee.</p>
<p>Boston <a href="http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/news;_ylt=AvodKtyUuUQDa_8BviFep9gRvLYF?slug=ge-redsoxdeals072209&amp;prov=yhoo&amp;type=lgns">apparently is still pursuing </a>Victor Martinez, though nothing seems imminent. There’s also a hint in Gordon Edes’ story on Yahoo that Tampa Bay is “working on” acquiring Lee.</p>
<p>Do the Indians want to be a farm team for all of Major League Baseball? They won’t be if they get a group of legitimate players in return, some of whom can play in the majors right away. Lee <a href="http://www.ohio.com/sports/51429357.html">has been too good </a>to trade him for prospects.</p>
<p>The same seems true of Martinez. If the Indians do trade Martinez they’d best receive some true, major-league-ready talent in return. Because trading two of the team’s legitimate players will not do much to bolster the team’s standing with its fans.</p>
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