"That's the first thought, yes," Holmgren said.

That's not good. Lisfranc is a serious injury to the middle of the foot that can involve dislocation and/or fracture.

The American Academy of Orthopaedic Surgeons web site offers this analysis of the injury, and describes treatment this way:

"Treatment for a Lisfranc injury depends on the severity of the injury. If the bones have not been forced out of position, you will probably have to wear a cast and refrain from putting weight on the foot for about six weeks. When the cast is removed, you may have to wear a rigid arch support. Your orthopaedist will also recommend foot exercises to build strength and help restore full range of motion.

"Often, operative treatment is needed to stabilize the bones and hold them in place until healing is complete. Pins, wires or screws may be used. Afterwards, you will have to wear a cast and limit weightbearing on the foot for six to eight weeks. A walking brace may be prescribed when the fixation devices are removed. You may also have to wear an arch support and a rigid soled shoe until all symptoms have disappeared. In some cases, if arthritis develops in these joints, the bones may have to be fused together."

Holmgren said Quinn should not need surgery, but would need time..

The recovery seems to be dependent on the severity of the injury. But … it's probably too early to guess how serious Quinn's injury is. Hopefully Holmgren and new GM Tom Heckert will address this issue Tuesday at a Browns news conference.

In my years covering the NFL, I can't remember a quarterback getting Lisfranc. Courtney Brown had it, and it sidelined him for the better part of a season. Errict Rhett had it and it effectively ended his career, though he was getting up there in years. Philadelphia's Brian Westbrook had it and came back very well, as did Colts defensive end Dwight Freeney. Dolphins running back Ronnie Brown had surgery to repair a Lisfranc injury in November.

How this injury would affect a quarterback is open to speculation. The left foot is the foot Quinn steps into when he throws. If this situation is serious, it could affect him. Which could affect the Browns offseason thinking and planning. Because if Quinn is iffy in terms of when and how he returns, and if he needs surgery … the Browns may need an alternate plan. Then again, Quinn could be fine. Just fine.

It's all pretty much guessing at this point, though the one certainty is no player wants to hear the word Lisfranc about an injury to his foot.

By the way, it's called Lisfranc after the French surgeon who discovered the injury in Napoleanic times. This is the truth. It could be why the injury fascinates me so much. Lisfranc saw a lot of French soliders hurt their foot while fighting for Napolean.

Tomorrow's lesson: Cooking with Plato.

Clearly there are things Quinn has to do better. No starting NFL quarterback remains the starter completing 53.1 percent of his passes. And a 5.2-yard average per attempt is way low.

Eight quarterbacks are over 8 yards per attempt, and five are below 6.

Twenty-one (including Alex Smith) are over 60 percent completions, and the only starter worse than Quinn in both categories is Oakland's JaMarcus Russell (Shame they couldn't play each other this Sunday).

This has to improve.

But … I really don't think we know anymore about Quinn today than we did when training camp started. Because the way things were run with Quinn at quarterback told us little.

There were so many games when all Quinn was asked to do was throw underneath, play carefully and not try to mess up.

He was basically handcuffed.

Or at least that's how it looked.

The two games when the shackles came off — even if for brief periods of time — were Detroit and San Diego, and he threw for 304 and 271 yards.

But in three of his last four games, Quinn threw for 100 (at Cincinnati), 90 (in horrific weather against Pittsburgh) and 66 yards (at Kansas City, when Jerome Harrison ran for 286 yards).

As a wise man once said: Aiyee.

I felt about a month ago that Quinn had earned another shot next training camp, but I'll be fascinated to see how Mike Holmgren and the GM he hires and the coach he chooses proceed.

Quinn has many of the hallmarks of a West Coast quarterback. He throws short, he can get rid of the ball and he can throw on the move. Too, he went to Notre Dame, which really has nothing to do with it except that Joe Montana — the ultimate West Coast quarterback — also went to Notre Dame. So you'd like to think there's a connection.

Holmgren has never been known to have weight-lifters as quarterbacks. Brett Favre has a gun, but he also has touch. Matt Hasselbeck is a touch passer who can throw downfield.

I honestly don't know if Quinn fits the profile Holmgren might want because I don't think we know yet what kind of NFL quarterback Quinn is.

The problem is that if Quinn doesn't fit, then who does, and where do the Browns turn?

Derek Anderson seems to be playing his last two games for the Browns these final two weeks.

The ex-Jet fascination should end after this season, which doesn't help Brett Ratliff.

Which leaves a free agent or a drafted player.

Nobody knows what will happen to free agency because nobody knows if a new CBA will be ratified by the end of February. If it's not, a whole new set of rules applies to players and free agency.

A preliminary list of free agents at this point includes guys like Jason Campbell, Tarvaris Jackson, Kellen Clemens, Kyle Boller and Rex Grossman.

Not a lot to do jumping jacks over there.

The draft list will have some strong quarterbacks, but the Browns needs are so deep it almost seems silly to consider a quarterback first — except that Holmgren has done so well developing them. That happened when he was a coach, though, so this situation is a little different.

Holmgren could always make a trade with all his extra draft picks, but the list of free agent candidates makes me think that bringing back Quinn and strengthening the position the best way possible (via trade, free agency or the draft) is the smartest way to go.

Presuming, of course, this foot injury that has sidelined Quinn isn't the dreaded LisFranc injury. If that's true, a lot of plans can change (No, I have no idea if that's the injury; I just know no details were provided, and I wonder about that dreaded problem every time I hear the words "foot" and "injury" together.)

Presuming Quinn is healthy by July … perhaps next season will be a little calmer, a little more "normal."

Which means that giving him another chance will enable the Browns to learn a little bit more about him.

And maybe along the way the Browns can actually win some games.

As for Holmgren …

2)      Sea legs. That's the image I keep coming up with when I think of his addition as president. He gives the Browns their sea legs. This team has had leaders, but none came from the football end. None brought the depth of experience on the football end that Holmgren has. He's coached, been involved in building teams, he's smart and he's worked with and presumably learned from smart people. He can address issues, ask "why" and help the team ride out the little crises every team experiences without them becoming traumatic or overly dramatic. He gives the Browns their sea legs to get through the waves and — hopefully — to calmer water.

3)      The General Manager will be a very, very important hire. I throw out some these names: Tom Heckert Jr. of the Philadelphia Eagles and Eric DeCosta of the Baltimore Ravens. Heckert would be outstanding, but it will be very tough to get him out of Philadelphia. DeCosta knows the division, but I would imagine if the Browns call Ozzie Newsome one more time to ask for permission to interview one of his guys he might go hide in Edgar Allen Poe's grave. This will be fascinating to see how Holmgren proceeds on the GM.

4)      It will also be interesting to see if he keeps Eric Mangini. Mangini was not his hire. He does not run the West Coast offense that Holmgren loves. Mangini's style with the media, though very cordial, is not the same as Holmgren's. Their cultures are much different. That being said, Holmgren was a coach, and he knows that it's not entirely fair to give a guy one year. But he also has to know that George Kokinis has filed an arbitration case against the Browns, claiming Mangini did not let him do his job. This seems like a very tenuous situation for the coach.

5)      It seems to me we might be looking at this the wrong way. Mangini came to Cleveland with what he perceived as a lot of power. He re-arranged the building, spent a ton of money, had a mural of Hall of Famers removed (it never returned) and acted like the king of the mountain. Like most kids, though, he has learned he can be pushed off the mountain. I wonder this: Does Mangini want to be part of a team where he has to surrender power and work for a guy who didn't hire him? Because if he stays, the perception will be that he's on a one-year tryout.

6)      If there is going to be a change, it almost seems like the best thing for Mangini and the Browns is to do it quickly and with dignity the day after the season. Make the move, thank Mangini for his work and simply state that the new president would like to hire his coach. That's the fairest approach to a difficult situation for Mangini. It's also fair to the team, the organization, and fair to the fans. Whether Mangini stays or goes, this team is starting over — from the bottom of the pack.

7)      As for that win over Kansas City … exciting … interesting … bizarre in some ways … entertaining. Any win is a good win, and two in a row is better.

8)      It's predictable, though. In fact it was predictable back in October when the Browns were losing. The December portion of the schedule had some games against teams struggling as badly as the Browns. Kansas City, Oakland, those kind of teams. If the Browns didn't compete against them, we'd have known the bottom truly had dropped out. They beat Pittsburgh impressively, and followed with a good win against Kansas City. It's good, but it doesn't suddenly mean that everything that happened earlier doesn't matter. Let's keep in mind that in every win this season the Browns quarterback threw for less than 100 yards. It all matters, the losses as well as the wins. But let's not do back flips. It's not justified to put extra meaning on a meaningless December game against a team with three wins. It is, as Bill Clinton might say, what it is.

9)      Jerome Harrison gains 286 yards rushing, prompting football types everywhere to say: Where did THAT come from? Harrison goes from ineffective to the Hall of Fame in about three weeks. He has games where you think he'll never make it to a game where you think he should be the featured back. No doubt Harrison was helped by the fact that the Chiefs were without two starting linemen, but 286 yards goes beyond any injury or injuries. It's special. (By the by … fullback Lawrence Vickers? A football player.) Now it's up to Harrison to prove he's the real deal and not the second coming of Lee Suggs.

10)   Josh Cribbs has overtaken Joe Thomas for my personal Player of the Year choice. Talk about an amazing player. Two kickoff returns in one game? Simply defies any and all odds. This proves a few things to me. Cribbs is one special player when used properly, and for him being used properly means as a returner and out of the backfield running the ball. A receiver he's not. Second, it's not surprising in one way. The Browns have a lot of good special teams players on the roster and they were facing a team that does not have a great roster, which means their special teams are not strong. If a standout can have a big game, it would be against a special teams group like Kansas City's. Finally, Cribbs is one special, special player — worth every penny he's going to be paid. Cribbs is a guy who might benefit from Holmgren's presence. A number of years back, the Packers had a tight end named Mark Chmura, who was pretty good. They traded for Keith Jackson from Miami, and he was pretty good. Once Jackson joined the team, Holmgren used both tight ends with two wide receivers. He lined them up alongside each other. Teams didn't know who to cover, and it was very effective. Holmgren is the kind of guy who might come up with some new ways to use Cribbs in the offense.

And … because it's the Browns … a bonus 11 …

11)   One other fallout from the hiring of Holmgren will be the positive reaction among players around the league. The impression of the team a week ago was not positive, and it would have made it more difficult to sign a free agent. Holmgren's credibility might open some possibilities that did previously did not exist. Which is a good thing. I know he has to prove himself in the new job, but he sure brings a lot of positives.

Three and Out

Dear Pat,

If I'm Mike Holmgren, I would tell Eric Mangini I want him to come to my home in Seattle the day after the season ends to discuss his future … then hand him a Cleveland-to-Seattle Greyhound bus ticket.

Don't you think we should withhold judgment on Holmgren for a month or two to see if he holds the door for Ahtyba Rubin at the local Panera, or gives Jim Brown's executive parking space at Berea to Jerome Harrison?

Brian D.

Twinsburg

Dear Brian,

I was all set for a "let me guess … you're here all week" response.

But you brought up holding the door at Panera. Have I told anyone that Brady Quinn once held the door for me at Panera? He didn't have to, but he did. He was walking in as I was walking out, and he stopped and held the door so I could go first.

These are the moments we need to recall during the holidays.

Dear Pat,

I just spent the better part of the morning reading the Seattle Times sports blogs and my conclusion is the majority of their fans are not happy Holmgren is leaving Seattle. Some astute fans even put out facts showing how good a GM he was by pointing out the players he signed, the fact that the offensive rankings of the team are all very high, and the fun fact that he is loved in the area.

Wow. I hope this works out.

It's also interesting is how many posts said how the Browns have real fans who will appreciate a great football mind and wished him well.

Maybe a red carpet World B Free coming-to-town party is required here.

Jeffrey B. Lucas

Dear Jeffrey B.,

Perspective is everything. To be honest, I'd have to say that Holmgren's tenure as GM was not great, but the team he coached did reach the Super Bowl so something was going right. I know this has yet to prove itself to be a wise move in Cleveland. I know he's never been a team president. But I also know that there are many reasons to believe it can work — as the fans in Seattle pointed out.

Dear Pat,

Landing Holmgren (is) awesome. But as a Browns fan you have to approach everything with some skepticism or even cynicism. Otherwise your heart turns to mush too quickly.  I know you can relate.

I see that many post blogs about your articles being too cynical blah blah blah. Hey, this is the Browns. No other team has put its fans through such heartbreak. So some cynicism is called for.

So that is why I am writing about Holmgren. So many positives are being reported about the meetings he has had with the Browns.

You know what this reminds me of?  A girl about to get dumped. "Sweetheart, it´s not you, it´s me." … "You´re a beautiful girl … Everything I could ask for … But I just feel … Ehh … Like I have to move on and focus on myself for a while … I love you … But I´m just not IN love with you …"

We shall see. But those are my impressions from the seats located in section "C"ynical.

Reed Dustin

Fresno, CA

Dear Reed,

Excuse my cynicism, but I'm not quite following the girlfriend thinking. Did you heist that Bailey's I was looking for last night?

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And they did it by playing hard-nosed, physical football against a team known for hard-nosed, physical football.

Pittsburgh seems to have lost its heart, its iron will that allowed them to win these kinds of games.

This season the Steelers have lost to Kansas City, Oakland and the Browns.

Those three teams have won a combined total of nine games (and lost 28). Three of those wins are over the defending Super Bowl champion Steelers.

Amazing.

What is equally amazing is that the Browns defense has lost its three interior starters, and it's playing better than it has all season. Rob Ryan's group sacked Ben Roethlisberger eight times, and many of them were caused by Roethlisberger looking confused and unsure where to throw the ball.

The Browns defense also stopped the run, limiting the Steelers to 75 yards rushing on 22 carries.

These are numbers never worthy of the Steelers, especially when it comes to facing the Browns.

The Browns offense produced a rushing touchdown and had the incomparable Josh Cribbs doing just about everything possible to get his team a win.

Cribbs averaged 10.9 yards per carry running from the Wildcat, and he brought back a punt 32 yards to set up a field goal.

Brady Quinn wasn't sharp, but the wind was howling and he's now beaten the Steelers, something a lot of other Browns quarterbacks cannot say.

Pittsburgh left town in a way it has not in years. It left with its head down, with talk of being embarrassed at its five-game losing streak and at losing to the Browns.

The Browns left the stadium proud.

Every player, coach, and employee can and should enjoy every moment of the win.

Including Eric Mangini, who has been beleaguered all season long. Finally, something went right for him. He should enjoy the night as well.

I still don't think it's going to affect his future with the team one way or the other. Not because the win wasn't meaningful, but because the new director of football will make the decision based on what he wants and not on whether Mangini beat or lost to the Steelers on a winter night in Cleveland Browns Stadium worthy of igloos.

That being said, any win over the Steelers is a good win.

Given the losing streak to Pittsburgh, the weather, the nature of the season … this one was especially good.

The Browns proved something.

They didn't play close.

They didn't compete.

They went out and they won. Over Pittsburgh.

And that's an achievement.

It's kind of nice, actually, that they all have a few extra days to appreciate it.

Logic might indicate yes. The Browns have lost so many in a row to the Steelers that they have to win at some point. It's the old monkey at the typewriter theory. Put one there and eventually a word comes out.

But instead of a hope, Thursday night's game seems to be a bit of an opportunity for the Browns. The Steelers are reeling a bit, having lost four in a row, two in overtime, one to Oakland. Not a very Steelers-like stretch.

Too, Pittsburgh's two leaders, the two guys who really get them going, probably will not play. That would be Troy Polamalu and Hines Ward. If they don't play the Steelers lose some serious leadership. Ward is iffy with a hamstring injury, but if he can play at all he will. Ward recently mistakenly called out Ben Roethlisberger when he didn't play with a concussion, so Ward might not be inclined to sit out if there's any chance he can play.

The Browns have a chance to do something right by beating Pittsburgh at home for the first time since Chris Palmer was the coach in 2000. (Palmer did one thing very right, and that was beat the Steelers; he was 2-2 against them.) It could eliminate some of the negatives that have surrounded the season.

It won't eliminate them all, nor should it. Anyone who says the team's record doesn't matter as long as the Browns beat Pittsburgh are spitting in the wind. It's just not logical. By this logic, it would be wrong to go 14-2 and lose twice to Pittsburgh. The object is to win games, lots of them. And the Browns only win this season came in Buffalo thanks to a fumbled punt return.

Every time I think of the Browns possibly winning, though, I think of Dick LeBeau. And the thought of the Browns pulling an upset quickly fades.

We could flash back to Brady Quinn's game against San Diego for confidence, but I flash back to the Cincinnati game. The Bengals defense confused and bothered Quinn with blitzes. There is no team in the league better at confusing and bothering quarterbacks with blitzes than Pittsburgh. It seems that LeBeau might be able to do a lot to make things tough for Quinn.

A Hall of Fame assistant coach.

A third-year quarterback showing signs of growth but making his 12th start.

I think I'd go with Lebeau.

2)      To be honest, the loss to San Diego was not that close. The Chargers led 27-7 going into the fourth quarter. They led 30-14 with 4:12 left. It's to the Browns credit that they scored nine points before the game ended, but at that point, the Chargers bigger concern was running clock and the Browns got some points on a recovered onside kick, which doesn't happen often. That was a 20-point San Diego win that was pretty well controlled by the Chargers.

3)      If the Browns want to build on something, how about building on some wins? Enough of this end-of-the-year stuff that young guys played well in a meaningless game. Build on wins. And yes, they're actually allowed to take place in September.

4)      Too, if the Browns want to prove something, Pittsburgh limps into town on Thursday. If the Browns want to show something, end that interminable losing streak against the Steelers.

5)      Even though San Diego controlled the game, the Browns never stopped competing, which is to their credit. They didn't even quit when they were down 27-7. They kept fighting, and gave themselves a glimmer of a chance. This was not enough to sway me that they played well, not the way Antonio Gates caught passes at will. But they did play hard. This really isn't unusual. In the NFL you rarely see a team mail it in. As former NFL defensive end Trace Armstrong once said to me, NFL players get 16 opportunities to do what they do. That's 16 times a year. He added that if NFL players can't get ready and play hard 16 times, they should not be in the NFL. He was right. And it shows each and every week. Teams might play bad, but they hardly ever bail on a game.

6)      Brady Quinn had good stats by game's end — 25-of-45 for 271 yards and three touchdowns. Rating: 95.1. But let's break it down. On the opening drive, Quinn went 6-for-6. He then completed 7-of-17. In the third quarter, Quinn was 0-for-3 with a sack as the Browns did not get a first down. With 13:45 left, Quentin Jammer, the Chargers top cornerback, was injured and left the game. From that point, Quinn completed 12-of-22 for 108 yards. It's to his credit he did what he did in the fourth quarter, but when the Chargers were dialed in during the third quarter — coach Norv Turner said they locked in on some things they wanted to do defensively after halftime — he was pretty ineffective.

7)      That being said, Quinn bounced back from a bad game, and at times looked more comfortable than he's looked all season. The first drive was outstanding, the throws down the field were nice to see and the way Quinn ran the no-huddle was impressive. If he can do this one or two more times, the Browns might be able to move forward without needing to draft a quarterback.

8)      Jerome Harrison came back from the moribund and played fairly well. Every time I'm ready to write him off, he comes back and does enough that you think it's not time to write him off. It seems that his role was best defined by last season's coaching staff, which used Harrison as a change of pace and on some quick outside passes. Harrison should be commended for one blitz pickup. He turned a guy upside down in an area of the game he had been struggling.

9)      Speaking of Phil Savage's draft picks, there's one guy who clearly goes under the radar who is a very good football player: fullback Lawrence Vickers. After Joe Thomas, Vickers might be Savage's best draft choice. Vickers might be a guy who could be incorporated into the offense a little more. Not 15 or 20 plays mind you, but he could catch a pass or two here or there, or run the ball. Maybe even from the tailback spot. The guy has ability.

10)  The defense somehow has skated on a lot of criticism. It's really been bad, very bad. San Diego had five plays longer than 30 yards, seven longer than 20 yards. In eight of 12 games this season, the defense has given up 27 or more points. Six teams have scored 30 or more. That's just not good.

Three and Out

Dear Pat,

I read what you wrote about Brady Quinn after the Cincinnati game. Normally I appreciate your insights but this was a terrible example of excuse-making for Quinn.  We know he has looked horrible every game outside of the weakest team in the NFL (Lions).  We know his accuracy has been poor regardless of the defense. We know in camp his accuracy issues were a problem just like last year too.

To say we need ANOTHER season to evaluate Quinn is as silly as it gets.  We already had two regimes looked at him.  The first stayed with DA, the second wanted a competition that went down to the wire. Even then out of fan, media and owner pressure it started Quinn while knowing DA was the better option.  That same pressure brought Quinn back.

Steve Hamilton

Dear Steve,

I usually like your insights too, but not this time. I don't think it's clear at all that Anderson was better than Quinn this season. In fact, Anderson looked awful and probably needs a fresh start with another team.

I'm not ready to name Quinn the team's quarterback for the next few years, but I am ready to stick with him another year — while still upgrading the position.

I have the benefit of seeing Quinn after San Diego, and you wrote before the game. But I think drafting another quarterback will lead to more prolonged development, and just set the team back (again). I don't believe Quinn is as bad as we saw earlier this season, but I also don't know how good he is.

I merely think this season has been such a mess and the coaching of him so bizarre that it's best to throw the entire experience out and let him start over next season.

From some online comments:

Dear Pat,

Are you buying the reason given by Eric Mangini for Jamal Lewis retiring? Given how Lewis has questioned Mangini it seems very strange that all of a sudden this "injury" came about.

Gaile

Dear Gaile,

I agree that it was bizarre how it came up all of a sudden, but it happens that a guy reports on Monday and complains about an injury a team did not know of the day before.

Too, I've heard a lot of information that confirms what has been reported about Lewis.

I'm not pro-Mangini, but I don't believe he'd go to the point of being untruthful about an injury to get a guy to injured reserve.

Dear Pat,

The Chargers game was a much more fun game to watch than most. If the Browns could get this much offense every week, it would be both more fun to watch them and more frustrating.

What a difference having a tight end who can catch a pass! What a difference having Brian Robiskie out there looking pretty much like the same good hands receiver he was at Ohio State. And, no, it doesn't change anything for me or I expect any fan where Mangini and his future is concerned.

Still, I would have guessed the Browns would lose scoring three points at the most and giving up anywhere from 20 to 40, depending upon how quickly the Chargers put the game away.

So, I enjoyed this game — only I don't get how they can score points one week, then nothing the next, then again look like a professional team (albeit a poor one) and score points.

It allows one to daydream, anyway, about possibly upsetting the Steelers ….

Keith Vlasak

Dear Keith,

In order:

1)      Why the Browns didn't have an offense in some games remains a pretty bizarre mystery.

2)      Brian Robiskie should have been active and playing in every game. Period. End of story.

3)      Your prediction was pretty close. The Chargers scored 30, the Browns scored seven until the final-quarter flurry when the Chargers packed it in.

4)      As for upsetting the Steelers, maybe I've been out in the cold too much, but I think it's possible. The Steelers are not playing well right now, and the Browns can point to this one game and try to make something of their season by ending Pittsburgh's playoff hopes. I honestly think it's possible. But no, it will not change my opinion of the Eric Mangini.

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The Browns played hard. They did not quit. They were aggressive. But I've never seen a team be so dominated in one quarter as the Browns were in the third quarters. San Diego controlled everything, and that's why they won.

I did have a chance to chase down Philip Rivers in the Chargers locker room, and I asked him about Quinn. He pretty much gushed:

"I watched him in that first quarter and said, 'Man. He's impressive.'

"He obviously has great accuracy and he can play the game."

Rivers' career mirrors Quinn's in that both sat for two years before being given a chance to start. Rivers, though, joined a team with a lot of talented veteran help. Quinn joined a team that went 4-12 a year ago and is worse this year.

"I fortunately sat for two years and came into a situation where we were able to win a bunch of games, but there have been many that went through some struggles in record and wins," Rivers said. ""But ultimately they ended up playing at a high level in this league.

"There's no doubt watching one game today that he can really throw it and he seems to be a really good leader. You get a sense that he is … the way he commands the huddle and runs the offense. You get guys that respect him and want to play, and it seems like that's what they have there.

"Just keep going and see what happens."

Quinn started his day 6-for-6 with a touchdown to Mohamed Massaquoi. He finished 25-for-45 for 271 yards with three touchdowns and no interceptions — a rating of 95.7. Included was one very nice throw when he was being knocked backward and threw to the end zone, where Brian Robiskie almost made an Antonio Gates-type catch.

The theme with Quinn the rest of the season: Just keep going and see what happens.

Random thoughts …

–Gates was amazing in this game. No pass that was in his area belonged to anyone but him.

–Rivers had to have the quietest 373 yard game I can remember.

–Was this a good game because it was kind of competitive, or was it a one-sided San Diego win that only became close because the Chargers were playing prevent and ready to go home the final many minutes? Yes.

–Brian Robiskie's play tells me he should never have been inactive.

–Norv Turner said the Chargers changed some things defensively in the second half, which helped them.

–Turner also addressed the fact that the Browns defense had injuries: "Everybody has issues."

2)      Brady Quinn gave little hope for the future with the way he played in Cincinnati, but I still would not give up on him. This season has been a mess from start to finish, so I think it's next to impossible to judge any player based on the way the offense has been run and the way things have gone.

3)      When I see Quinn I kind of/sort of/maybe/perhaps want to think of Vince Young, a guy many were saying was done in Tennessee after last season. He's got himself back together. Why can't Quinn, he wrote, wondering if perhaps he's next going to advocate that the flying reindeer will soon be distributing Clark bars to all autoworkers as they clock in to work.

4)      Really, the only two consistent and dependable guys on the offense week in and week out this season have been Joe Thomas and Eric Steinbach — and maybe even Alex Mack. Them we can judge. They can stay. Put down roots. Buy, not rent. The rest … who knows what to make of their performances. Things have been mishandled that badly. When this season ends, it's best to flush it as fast as possible and move to clean water. And yes, that's a nasty image.

5)      The Browns have yet to hire a general manager — how did this term "football czar" take hold? — and they might not until the season ends. It just seems that most folks who are available and willing to work in 2010 want to wait and see what else is available, and those who aren't available have to wait because they're working for another team. This tells me that Mike Holmgren might not decide if he wants to become the "czar of football" until after the season. Though it sure would be nice to think that he might become Cleveland's (dramatic music in the background as John Facenda mutters) "czar of football." I just think pursuing him makes a lot of sense.

6)      It's hard to see anyone telling a new "czar of football" that he must accept a coach not of his choosing. No self-respecting "czar of football" is going to run "football" without wanting to choose "his" coach. Bottom line: This just does not seem good for Eric Mangini's "future" with the Browns. Using quotation marks that way always makes me think of Saturday Night Live.

7)      The absence of a "czar" — again, where did this term arise? — shows in the Brian Robiskie situation. A "czar" could ask, pointedly: "What the heck? The guy is a second-round draft pick. The team is 1-10. Get the guy on the field and see what he can do." Would we rather evaluate Mike Furrey some more? Or was Jake Allen that impressive in practice last Thursday?

8)      Shaun Rogers is done for the season, which is a shame. The guy is a good player who's given his all in every game since he's been a Brown. But I wonder how much it will matter. The Browns are ranked 31st in the league in defense with Rogers, and they're giving up 159.9 yards per game rushing with him in the middle. It's not like their ranking is going to plummet without him. Though I guess it could go to 32.

9)      Rogers' penalty at end of the first half gave Cincinnati another of those infernal "untimed downs" the Browns have made famous, but at least it was a hustle play. Rogers chased Carson Palmer out of the pocket and just grabbed the wrong part of Palmer's jersey. The play did show why the horse-collar tackles has been banned. The potential for injury is high. And it was nice to hear Eric Mangini say he didn't see the play but he respected the ref's call. It was far different than the way he approached the pass interference penalty in Detroit, and a far better way to handle it. But, even though it was a hustle play, those three points sure changed the nature of the game.

10)  It's pretty goofy of Mangini not to say exactly what Rogers' injury is, but that's the coach's policy.

11)  That promise of stopping the run this season made by Rob Ryan before the season? Doesn't seem to have worked out.

12)   Noticed that Darnell Dinkins caught a touchdown pass for New Orleans Monday night. That's the ex-Browns tight end, the guy the Browns let go when they signed Robert Royal. Dinkins caught the pass, and when the game ends he's in New Orleans playing for an undefeated team and eating beignets and drinking café au lait. It'd be interesting to know if he's happy about the change of scenery.

Three and Out

Hey Pat,

What's the real reason behind the unrelenting support of Brady Quinn?  Did you dole out big bucks for official Brady Quinn jerseys for your daughters?

Brian D.

Twinsburg

Dear Brian,

Well, he did hold the door for me once at Panera.

Good afternoon Pat,

It’s hard to disagree with your assessment about Brady Quinn’s incomplete.  But there is something I’ve seen the last two weeks that bothers me, to the point I wonder if he’ll ever pan out.  On about 75 percent of his passes, he looks completely out of sync,  like a power pitcher trying to throw to first base after fielding a slow roller in front of the mound.  His motion is not right.  How many times is he going to fire the ball into the ground at the receiver’s feet? There is no rhythm to his delivery.  His wrist is tight, not loose.  On a couple throws he looked like he was trying to throw a sinker, his wrist snapped so hard downward at the release. And that’s where the ball went – straight down.

Browns played Bengals close both games – and that’s the  team that dominated the Central Division this year.  The glory of the ‘Tradition’ of the Cleveland Browns has just expanded.  It now includes the opponent scoring on extra plays awarded at the end of halves/games by penalties on the defense.  Rogers’ play cost us three points.  At the end of the game, that could have made a difference.  In any event, we played them pretty tough this year. Silver lining?

How bad is a franchise when, over a 10 year period, its best players, year in, year out, are the punter and place kicker. Phil Dawson has to be the unluckiest player in the NFL.  I think he might be  the best place kicker the team has ever had.  We just don’t realize it because he hasn’t been there to win big games for us.  He’s such a classy guy.  Think what a huge star he would be had he played for Indianapolis or New England the last 10 years.

And our punters have been very good as well.  Dave Zastudil is as good as we’ve ever had.

So when you assess the cloud hanging over the Browns, ask yourself how many teams in the history of the NFL have lost both their place kicker AND punter simultaneously for an extended period of time.

George Rosin

Akron

Good day George,

Always good to hear from an old friend, and as always you raise good points. As for the silver lining, has it really reached the point where it's a silver lining to play the Bengals close? Is that what we've come to? And … how can there be any silver lining given your extremely accurate statements about the kickers.

From the online comments …

Eric Mangini is the Lord of his kingdom and no player should ever, ever question him over his rule.

Just look at his history. Because of his Lordship's rule, he has stabbed veteran players in the back, fired his own best friend General Manager, accused another former buddy coach of stalling time with fake injuries, and accused his former "mentor" (Belichick) of cheating by stealing signals.

He has overlooked veteran players at charity events (Rogers) and has had the most grievances filed against him in one season in the NFL.

If a player makes a statement to the press, that player's time is cut for the next game. Rookie players cannot get onto the field to play because they have not "shown enough" yet??? So he picks up free agents off the waiver wire and plays them instead???

He fines players with excessive fines and even refuses to allow them to play in a game until they learn "his way or the highway."

What happened to the days of a coach being a mentor, teacher and instructor instead of a ruler???

Not much else I can add here, other than I sure would hate to be his friend. I wonder how many Browns players feel that way right now???

Strange behavior leads to strange happenings.

Alex K

Dear Alex,

Fairness forces me to admit that Mangini does have his defenders online as well. Not many, but there are a couple holdouts. Just like there are a couple folks who still insist Oswald acted alone in the library with a paring knife.

I just wonder why you use three question marks at the same time.

(Want to be recognized in “Three and Out”? It’s a rare treat. Comment here or send an e-mail to pmcmanamon@thebeaconjournal.com, and put “First and 10” in the subject line.)

2)      Look at Phidelphia on Sunday night. Up four against Chicago, the Bears take over at their 21 with 1:51 left. It was a situation very comparable to the Lions, except Detroit had farther to go and less time. Philadelphia allowed Chicago to gain 16 yards, then intercepted a Jay Cutler pass. They did something to actually win the game. That's what winning teams do.

3)      The Browns? They lose a game when the other team has to go 88 yards with a rookie quarterback and no timeouts. Eighty-eight yards. That's the bottom line. The Browns had 88 yards to stop the Lions, and Detroit had no timeouts. The Browns didn’t. They lost. They deserved to lose.

4)      I'm not going to blame Eric Mangini for calling that pass just after the two-minute warning because he tried to win the game right then and there. That's a good attitude. Too, his players didn’t exactly back him up. It was also good to see Mangini go for it on a fourth down in the first half, and good to see him try a fake field goal. But … there was a practical cost for not running the ball on third-and-5. Because he threw the clock stopped with 1:57 left. Let's suppose the Browns run. The play ends with 1:52 to go … the Browns run as much of the 45-second clock as they can and then punt … the punt takes 11 seconds. That means Detroit gets the ball back at about the 15-yard-line with 55-58 seconds left. With no timeouts. That pass gave Detroit an extra minute. The pass was a risk that didn't work, like just about everything else this season.

5)      I did not agree with the timeout as Detroit lined up for its extra ""untimed down." Daunte Culpepper was cold off the bench and the entire scene in Ford Field — the finest facility in the NFL — was chaotic. The Lions looked every bit as organized as the Browns, which is to say not very. Calling timeout allowed things to settle down, and allowed Matt Stafford back in the game (legally). I just don't like a coach on the sideline exercising that much control, especially one like Mangini who emphasizes preparation so much. If his team is prepared for the situation, it can defend the play — especially with the backup in the game.

6)      I also don't buy that the pass interference penalty on Hank Poteat was controversial. The guy had his back to the play, and he hit a receiver out of bounds while the ball was in the air. Poteat's play impeded the receiver and kept him from going for the ball. Next time a Browns receiver is blocked out of bounds while a ball is in the air, a flag should be thrown. It's a penalty Sunday, it's a penalty Monday, it's a penalty every day. The problem is that the impression was given that the penalty was on the guys jostling with Calvin Johnson. It wasn't. It was on Poteat for knocking Bryant Johnson out of the back of the end zone with the ball in the air. That's a penalty.

7)      Brady Quinn finally played a game like everyone expected of him this season. The difference? Well the Browns were playing the Lions. But at this point of this season you take this opponent and this game. Because the Lions, last I checked, are still in the NFL, and a 300-yard, four-touchdown game is big-time. The other difference? The Browns appeared to give Quinn a more complete game plan, and a more complete chance to succeed. Against Baltimore, it almost appeared that the coaching staff decided they could not succeed so they gave Quinn no chance to do so. Against Detroit, they gave him plays down the field and gave him a chance to make things work.

8)      This doesn't guarantee that Quinn is back in the team's long-term plans. But it sure puts him back in the thinking — provided he follows with some more success. Quinn was the team's most baffling player this season, because I never thought he was as bad as he looked. If he can get himself back on some solid ground, perhaps the Browns can go into 2010 with him as their quarterback.

9)      This streak Mangini has going is pretty amazing. Nothing he tries works. He calls timeout, Detroit scores. He signs Hank Poteat, he gets torched in an early game then interferes in the end zone. He decides to go against his natural inclination and be aggressive with a pass, it's incomplete and Detroit gets an extra minute. He tells Quinn to take the sack if he's pressured or the pass is not there to keep the clock running, Quinn throws incomplete. He can't score, then gets a 24-3 lead and see a defense blow a game. He calls a smart fake field goal thinking it'll be a touchdown, but a Lions player recognizes it at the last second and makes the tackle. It's amazing, really. Nothing that Mangini tries is working. Nothing. At this point he best not make any frozen orange juice on his own because it'll turn out to be rancid.

10)   Pixar should do a movie on the Browns. They're ""The Incredibles" of the NFL with the way they lose games. Has any other team in the history of any professional sport ever lost two games on untimed downs when the other team scored with zeroes on the clock? The Browns did it with Dwayne Rudd's helmet, and with now with Matt Stafford's miracle. After leading 24-3, they lost a game when they let a rookie throw five TD passes in an NFL game for the first time since 1937. And they lost with zeroes on the clock. On an untimed down. Bet none of us had ever heard of an untimed down until we all started following this team.

Three and Out

Dear Pat,

This is the from the NFL rulebook:

Timing in Final Two Minutes of Each Half

1.   On kickoff, clock does not start until the ball has been legally touched by player of either team in the field of play. (In all other cases, clock starts with kickoff.)

2.   A team cannot buy an excess time out for a penalty. However, a fourth time out is allowed without penalty for an injured player, who must be removed immediately. A fifth time out or more is allowed for an injury and a five-yard penalty is assessed if the clock was running. Additionally, if the clock was running and the score is tied or the team in possession is losing, the ball cannot be put in play for at least 10 seconds on the fourth or more time out. The half or game can end while those 10 seconds are run off on the clock.

3.   If the defensive team is behind in the score and commits a foul when it has no time outs left in the final 40 seconds of either half, the offensive team can decline the penalty for the foul and have the time on the clock expire.

4.   Fouls that occur in the last five minutes of the fourth quarter as well as the last two minutes of the first half will result in the clock starting on the snap.

 I understand Detroit would be allowed an untimed down as a result of the pass interference. However, with the trainers on the field and the referees announcing Detroit was charged with a timeout, what is the recourse for the Browns?

Should Detroit have been assessed a delay of game penalty, which would have moved the ball to the six?

It seems in this situation Detroit is allowed a fourth timeout without penalty.

Why also was Detroit’s tight end coach allowed on field after the touchdown? Should that not have been a 15 yard penalty?

All in all, a very poorly officiated game, not the reason we lost … but didn’t help.

Michael Donahue

Dear Michael,

I'm sorry to tell you this, but I'm told the officials handled everything properly. Note that in No. 2 above, the rule states a team is allowed a fourth timeout for an injured player "without penalty." Thus, no penalty.

Too, a game cannot end on a defensive penalty. The officials were required to give Detroit one more play.

As for the coach on the field, they missed that. Plain and simple. It should have been 15 yards. But … I honestly don't think it would have mattered.

The Browns had many chances to win the game.

They lost.

Officials did not cost the Browns this game. The Browns did.

Pat 

Dear Pat,

Really?  You think Hank Poteat clearly interfered with the Lions receiver?

In my opinion, there was no way said receiver had a chance at the ball, and another Lions receiver knocked two Browns defenders out when the pass was in the air.

The proper decision would absolutely be NO FLAG.

On the last play of the game, on a scrambling Hail Mary, you have to let them play unless the infraction directly effects the outcome.

Any other team in the league would have gotten away with that one.

Tom Crookston

Dear Tom,

I respectfully disagree. The guy Poteat interfered with could not get in the play because of Poteat. That's interference.

Note that the refs allowed the guys going for the ball to do just that, go for the ball.

The call was made because Poteat — by his own admission — knocked a guy out of bounds when the ball was in the air.

Sorry, but that's interference.

I actually credit the officials on this play. They let the guys fighting for the ball fight for the ball (Brodney Pool did intercept), but two guys saw Poteat's infraction and they had to call it.

Hi Pat,

What an unbelievable loss but at least it was entertaining! I find it interesting that none of the beat writers have so far printed Quinn's QB rating. When he and Anderson stink it is a staple of every game article written. Statistics about how historically bad they are, how they rank against others, etc. Finally he had a good performance and no mention. Not one so far. I don't get it?

Kyle St. Peter

St. Louis, Mo.

Dear Kyle,

All I can say is a writer only has so much space in the paper, and when a game ends like Sunday's did the emphasis is on the final plays. Not an excuse, but an explanation.

For the record, it was an entertaining game, and Quinn's play was impressive and encouraging.

His rating: 133.1

Hoo hoo!

Dear Pat,

The Browns have become like some strange, macabre fascination. Like watching an automobile accident. You can't avert your eyes. My only worry is that it will progress to the next level, which would be reveling in it and celebrating it, like a 1960s Mets fan.

Tim Abraham

Canfield, Ohio

Dear Tim,

Hope all is well in Canfield.

You are right about the Browns. And it's weird, even when they were up 24-3 there was this feeling that the game wasn't over. Even when Detroit took over at the 12 with no timeouts, there was this feeling that something could still happen.

It did.

(Want to be recognized in “Three and Out”? It’s a rare treat. Comment here or send an e-mail to pmcmanamon@thebeaconjournal.com, and put “First and 10” in the subject line.)

Quinn's reaction on the field was telling, too. Clearly he knew he had made a mistake.

The Ravens have right to be angry, but Quinn is not a dirty player and he immediately apologized and took his medicine like a man.

He's handled a mistake well.

It's time to move on.