I don't know if it's possible to get a true assessment of Brady Quinn from this train wreck of a Cleveland Browns season.
Clearly there are things Quinn has to do better. No starting NFL quarterback remains the starter completing 53.1 percent of his passes. And a 5.2-yard average per attempt is way low.
Eight quarterbacks are over 8 yards per attempt, and five are below 6.
Twenty-one (including Alex Smith) are over 60 percent completions, and the only starter worse than Quinn in both categories is Oakland's JaMarcus Russell (Shame they couldn't play each other this Sunday).
This has to improve.
But … I really don't think we know anymore about Quinn today than we did when training camp started. Because the way things were run with Quinn at quarterback told us little.
There were so many games when all Quinn was asked to do was throw underneath, play carefully and not try to mess up.
He was basically handcuffed.
Or at least that's how it looked.
The two games when the shackles came off — even if for brief periods of time — were Detroit and San Diego, and he threw for 304 and 271 yards.
But in three of his last four games, Quinn threw for 100 (at Cincinnati), 90 (in horrific weather against Pittsburgh) and 66 yards (at Kansas City, when Jerome Harrison ran for 286 yards).
As a wise man once said: Aiyee.
I felt about a month ago that Quinn had earned another shot next training camp, but I'll be fascinated to see how Mike Holmgren and the GM he hires and the coach he chooses proceed.
Quinn has many of the hallmarks of a West Coast quarterback. He throws short, he can get rid of the ball and he can throw on the move. Too, he went to Notre Dame, which really has nothing to do with it except that Joe Montana — the ultimate West Coast quarterback — also went to Notre Dame. So you'd like to think there's a connection.
Holmgren has never been known to have weight-lifters as quarterbacks. Brett Favre has a gun, but he also has touch. Matt Hasselbeck is a touch passer who can throw downfield.
I honestly don't know if Quinn fits the profile Holmgren might want because I don't think we know yet what kind of NFL quarterback Quinn is.
The problem is that if Quinn doesn't fit, then who does, and where do the Browns turn?
Derek Anderson seems to be playing his last two games for the Browns these final two weeks.
The ex-Jet fascination should end after this season, which doesn't help Brett Ratliff.
Which leaves a free agent or a drafted player.
Nobody knows what will happen to free agency because nobody knows if a new CBA will be ratified by the end of February. If it's not, a whole new set of rules applies to players and free agency.
A preliminary list of free agents at this point includes guys like Jason Campbell, Tarvaris Jackson, Kellen Clemens, Kyle Boller and Rex Grossman.
Not a lot to do jumping jacks over there.
The draft list will have some strong quarterbacks, but the Browns needs are so deep it almost seems silly to consider a quarterback first — except that Holmgren has done so well developing them. That happened when he was a coach, though, so this situation is a little different.
Holmgren could always make a trade with all his extra draft picks, but the list of free agent candidates makes me think that bringing back Quinn and strengthening the position the best way possible (via trade, free agency or the draft) is the smartest way to go.
Presuming, of course, this foot injury that has sidelined Quinn isn't the dreaded LisFranc injury. If that's true, a lot of plans can change (No, I have no idea if that's the injury; I just know no details were provided, and I wonder about that dreaded problem every time I hear the words "foot" and "injury" together.)
Presuming Quinn is healthy by July … perhaps next season will be a little calmer, a little more "normal."
Which means that giving him another chance will enable the Browns to learn a little bit more about him.
And maybe along the way the Browns can actually win some games.
{ 38 comments }
Mariucci, Weiss, 2 names i wouldnt mind seeing in C-Town next year would be good for any QB……the D is better suited for a 4-3 anyhow…CH CH CH CHANGES!
Pat,
Right on. I agree with every point you make in this one.
I read somebody's speculation that Hasselback was likely to be released — for being paid too much and at the end of his career. If so, he seems like he'd be a good Browns pick up (but then I'm pre-supposing Mangini will be gone and Quinn will not be).
I just hope they get rid of Derek Anderson.
Is Quinn the right QB for the west coast offense ? Do we have the right recivers for the west coast offense ? Doesn't the offense depend on YAC's ? Yards after the catch ?
How big of a role does the tight end play in the west coast offense ? This is Cleveland and we love our tight ends . Ozzie , KJ Jr. , and now Evan Moore. Although every week he gets less catches , less balls thrown his way.
Will this offense help Brian Robiskie ?
How many more tickets left for the next game ?
Jay C…..you're right on the money….and I love your CD's.
Joyce i think you meant JAY-Z, LeBrons buddy….GO CAVS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I'm more of a Kid Cootie fan myself.
I lift my glass of Baileys/Guinness/Christmas Ale/Gingerbread Latte in wishing Pat and the rest of you a Happy Christmas, Hanukkah, Kwanzaa, Festivus or whatever you are celebrating.
Get Quinn outta here. Git that weak stuff outta here….
We're better off with Josh Cribbs at QB and DA as backup.
Pat:
As usual, I agree with you. Quinn's numbers are pretty disappointing, but we have a very limited amount of data to look at; and what numbers we do have seem to be skewed by a variety of factors beyond his control. Are there any prospective second-, third- or fourth- round draft picks who look like good potential NFL QBs?
I'm still surprised by the lack of correlation between college success and NFL success at QB. JaMarcus Russell is the poster boy for the proposition that college success does not translate into NFL success. Heisman winner Troy Smith fits into that category as well. Conversely, Tom Brady was picked up in the sixth round.
Finally, a Merry Christmas to you and your family, friends and readers.
Quinn appears to be a decent no-huddle QB on a team that runs a LOT. I don't see anyone out there who would be better than Quinn next year – with the possible exceptions of Cribbs and DA (who played better than Quinn ever has in 2007). So don't waste a draft pick. Go get another WR and some defensive help.
Proof that this has been a completely wasted season: The ONE question that HAD to be answered—Can Brady Quinn be an effective QB for this team going forward?—was botched by Mangini. Thus, we are not one iota further along than we were when this control freak began redecorating the facility last Jan.
Imagine that: The ONLY question which HAD to be answered….Mangini couldn't get it done. 'Nuff said about the Ball Boy?
Certainly we now know what all intelligent Browns fans easily deduced last year: Derek Anderson belongs in the CFL. But how frustrating must this new job be for Holmgren, knowing the lame-duck coach had a full year to evaluate and test Quinn's abilities–without idiotic restraints–and he couldn't get it done? Dear Ball Boy, that's not how the PRO teams operate, son.
I disagree with the assessment that Holmgren cannot look at what he knows about Quinn and make a judgement about his ability. He could call him into his office, spend some time with him and have a pretty good idea. They tape practice. They tape games. Everything Holmgren could ever want to know is on tape. And if Holmgren is as good with quarterbacks as everyone says he is…he already knows, he's just not saying.
And for anyone that says either quarterback could flourish in the depleted receiving corps of the Browns, just keep on dreaming. We don't have a number 1 or a number 2. Stucky is a 3 at best. Massaquoi is a rookie and while he has shown flashes of something, without proven veterans on the team to emulate and watch, he's a babe floundering in the woods. Robiskie obviously is not one of the people they have been trying to coach up and if they have, the young man does not find himself on the field enough for anyone to know if he is capable of doing anything in the NFL.
As far as receiving tight ends go the only one I think shows any signs of hope is Evan Moore. Everyone else cannot catch. Other guys are getting old and cannot be counted on for every down play all season long thus they are now on injured reserve and have been for quite some time.
The right side of the O line cannot be counted on to protect a quarterback beyond 2 Mississippi. In the wildcat which way do they always run? Toward Thomas. It's not because he smells better. It's because he is a better football blocker.
How can anyone expect any quarterback to function in all that disfunction? The sad stats are because we have a team of poor football players. Braylon Edwards couldn't catch a cold and had an ego like a Goodyear blimp. He was all we had and in him we had nothing because even with the Jets he has done nothing.
And for someone to bring up the name Hasselback like he is anything special? We need linemen and people who can catch the ball before we waste anymore time and money on quarterbacks. Drafting a quarterback right now would be like putting a jet engine in a go kart. Might look pretty cool but it is destined to crash and burn.
Time will tell what direction Holmgren will go.Holes to fill all over the place.
Everyone knows what the Browns record was and still is this year. We didn't make the playoffs. Either you do or you don't and nothing else matters except when you get all together and physically pound a team you hate which the Browns did when they played the Pittsburgh Steelers! If nothing else we know we have a running team. I don't know about Brady Quinn anymore than anyone else does but we will see. Everything else you've said this year, and I've definitely argued with most of what you've said because it was-Beside The Point!-Merry Christmas to Browns fans and to Pat McManamon!
Mike Vick
I agree that the tape (actually digital) is there for Holmgren to look at regarding Quinn.
Mike is a QB guru. Odds are that he knows, or will shortly know, what he needs to know about Brady.
I like Brady and do believe he can succeed at the NFL level. And I do believe that Brady would do better in a West Coast Offense. But that offense depends on the ball being thrown before the receiver gets open, meaning you have to have guys that can get to the spot open. And so far we see that the young Browns aren't very good at reading a defense and running to the sport. One other point – while the WCO was originally designed for Virgil Carter, a weak armed QB (and quite bright) we have seen with Elway in Denver, McNabb with the Eagles, Favre and a number of others, that a strong arm playing in the system really opens up the WCO.
Knowing Holmgram, I'd guess there is a back-up QB somewhere in the league that he has his eye on. I've liked Drew Stanton, a QB from Michigan State that has been sitting on the Lions bench for a few years, and will be starting Sunday evening against the 49'ers. This is the sort of QB guys like Holmgren find. The Lions don't play anything close to the WCO, but if he shows he has the abilities, and does poorly, he might be able to be had for a low price.
And for someone to bring up the name Hasselback like he is anything special? We need linemen and people who can catch the ball before we waste anymore time and money on quarterbacks. Drafting a quarterback right now would be like putting a jet engine in a go kart. Might look pretty cool but it is destined to crash and burn.
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JBD,
I think the point about Hasselback is simply that he can execute the West Coast offense. And while not a star, the fact is that he got that team to a Super Bowl. There is something with Browns fans that demand every single guy on a team be a star (with no faults), or the team can't win. Teams go to the Super Bowl every year that have holes in them, some the coaches work to minimize shifting the personnel around.
As far as drafting a QB, if you look at Homlgren's past when teams he was with acquired their QB's, all were from other NFL teams, noe was drafted – Steve Young, Favre, and Hassleback.
Then again, we'll have to see the pro personnel person that Holmgren brings in to run the draft, sign the free agents, and make the trades.
One last thing – you can go on Wikipedia and look up "West Coast Offense". Go to the Bill Walsh version,and not the Air Coryell version, to understand Mike Holmgren's background.
This was their final point:
"Finally, the West Coast offense, with its emphasis on quick reactive skills, can be seen to further develop the running quarterback motif, where extremely fast running quarterbacks (Randall Cunningham, Michael Vick, and Vince Young) and other notable scrambling quarterbacks (Jake Plummer and Donovan McNabb) are valued, if they are good passers, because in blitz or short-yardage situations, when the West Coast offense's value is negated, the running quarterback can make up this difference by posing a threat to make the first down himself, paralyzing an aggressive defense."
It is a point against Brady Quinn. And depending on the people selected as head of personnel and head coach, the possibility of bringing in Michael Vick should not be discounted. Charlie Frye in his conference call noted that even as President, Mike Holmgren is a guy that is going to be hands-on. It would be quite attractive for Vick to be able to work Mike. And for the fans that don't know it, most scouts believe that Vick has one of the three strongest arms in the NFL.
Holmgren is robotic when it comes to play-calling and threatened to neuter any quarterback that called an audible at the line, including Favre. Quinn has experience being a robot terrified to make a mistake, he'll do fine.
Mike Vick? I've been saying that for months. Why is it suddenly now politically correct to say it?
Who cares about Quinn or whoever. Holmgren couldn't have weasled himself into a better situation. If he fails, he can talk about "the process" and simply blame the prior Administration(s). If he succeeds, he can credit his genius and quietly mock everybody that doubted him over the past 15 years. If he fails, it gives him that built-in excuse to return to coaching while running the show simultaneously, which is what he wants, anyway.
No matter what, the guy can't lose. Thank God for the Lerner Family.
"Holmgren couldn't have weasled himself into a better situation. If he fails, he can talk about "the process" and simply blame the prior Administration(s). If he succeeds, he can credit his genius and quietly mock everybody that doubted him over the past 15 years. If he fails, it gives him that built-in excuse to return to coaching while running the show simultaneously, which is what he wants, anyway."
Mr. Holmgren is a class individual and I doubt he "weaseled" himself into anything.
He was given the option to coach if he wanted to. He didn't need any and "excuses"" to do it.
Mike Holmgren is going into the Hall Of Fame. He's 61 years old, a father and a grandfather, and financially secure. He doesn't think, nor is he motivated, like a loser posting on an internet site that has no clue what the mans options are.
Your sound like a guy that when he's done at the ABL, he goes over to some entertainment site to give his inside scoop on what Brad and Jolie are doing, and why.
Why do people in NE Ohio think they know the thinking behind what public people do? Decades ago those people knew that there were kooks out there and there was nothing they could do to stop them.
I know people are soooo quick to forget, but Mike Vick is a butcher, a thug who has no value for life. The horrific, despicable pain and suffering he routinely inflicted upon helpless animals is a part of him, his psyche, his makeup, the non-person that he is. It greatly offends me that people are so willing to simply overlook this savagery, just because they think he'll win them a football game.
Point of fact: The guy was not a good QB before his felonies. Isn't time we stop glorifying this type of perversion and thug mentality? I'd rather have Chaz Frye back before I'd even look Vick's way. He is repulsive, and two years in Leavenworth doesn't change that one iota. He is a sick, sick sicko.
Marc, this is pro football. Perversion and thug mentality? I don't give a crap what a guy did off the field. Do you think Ray Lewis grew up with his pinkie sticking up from a teacup? Not a coincidence that violent inner-city hip-hoppers are the class on the field everywhere. Which has been Notre Dame's recruiting problem, unless Lou Holtz is hanging around. It's a violent game. Give me killers any day of the week instead of some wuss white guy fresh out of the suburbs.
Oh, please, Farkas. In what reality are you living. What does having kids and grandkids have to do with anything. Come back and tell me the same thing in three years, when he's coaching the Browns, making the draft picks, firing and hiring everybody left and right, and ruling the roost in his quest for redemption. He might succeed, he might not. But get your head out of the sand.
"Oh, please, Farkas. In what reality are you living. What does having kids and grandkids have to do with anything. Come back and tell me the same thing in three years, when he's coaching the Browns, making the draft picks, firing and hiring everybody left and right, and ruling the roost in his quest for redemption. He might succeed, he might not. But get your head out of the sand."
I'm new here, but I've read your know-it-all bitter ramblings in the past. If you're Mike Trivassano in drag, may I suggest you read a book? Any book!
I've been following the story, apparently you haven't. Randy Lerner offered him his choice of positions with the Browns. If he wanted a set-up as you suggest, a set-up that Bill Belichick and Andy Reid have, all he had to do was say so.
When some of us get older we don't want they day-to-day activities we did when we were younger. Marlon Brando didn't take leading roles the last 20 years of his acting career. Bill Parcells could have run the Dolphin operation if he wanted to. Jimmy Johnson has had numerous offers over the years to take over franchises, but he likes what he's doing and pockets some nice coin doing it.
What do you – some schmuck in Akron, Ohio – know what motivates those people? You don't know a thing about those people. If you actually met one of them, you'd ask for an autograph and a picture.
FYI – Lerner wanted Holmgren last year, and Holmgren committed to his wife to take the year off. You know how I knew? Because I heard him say it over the radio and that's exactly what he informed the Seahawks he was doing in 2007. And this year Lerner went after him again. Holmgren didn't "weasel" his way into anything.
Just because no one calls you to come in for an interview and then makes you an offer, and just because you have never accomplished enough in life to understand why others that have had success might take actions in life, doesn't mean that what you attribute to them is true. Fact is that Lerner offered Holmgren everything you say that he is aiming for. Again, if he wanted it he would have taken it. And as far as I'm concerned, if he wants to go back into coaching in a few years and the opportunity is there, that's fine with me as a Browns fan.
This is the most accomplished football person the Browns have employed since Blanton Collier and the rest of Paul Brown's staff retired in 1970. Other then spending every day on the ABJ's board, tell us what you've accomplished in your life. It'll give the readers here a chance to pass judgment on you, and make wild speculations about what you "really" want to do.
While I'm Jewish, may I nevertheless wish you a Merry Christmas. Remember, God loves you. Heaven knows Alan, someone has to.
I'm not a schmuck in Akron, Ohio, and I'm a Heeb, as well. An older and apparently a much wiser one than you, Farkas. The "weasel" part comes into play with his publicly stated intentions and what he really ultimately intends to do. This guy ain't riding off into the sunset being perceived as a dual-role failure with the Seahawks after being given the raspberries by the Packers.
Or maybe not older … but within a decade. Same thing. Oh, and they have the best football man since Butch Davis, since it's a different franchise. Not Blanton Collier. Besides, what do you have against Dick Modzelewski. Technically, he was a "football guy," too.
That's the worrisome part, Farkas–Lerner "offered him his choice of positions with the Browns." Which means he holds all the positions, whenever he chooses to do so. He'll give Manweenie another year and if Holmgren thinks the pieces are in place he'll take over coaching the following year. If he's not sure, he'll hire another fall guy.
But back to the thread topic, the main question here is "Is Quinn a 'football guy' or not?
Pat:
I was disappointed that Quinn will miss the last two games but I think this excuse that we have limited data on Quinn is BS. The guy has has been with the team 3 years. The coaches see what he can do everyday in practice and he's shown nothing to show he is the Browns QB of the future. My only reason for having Quinn at QB next year is the fact you mentioned that the Browns needs are so deep and widespraed that drafting a QB now would be absurd and the FAs are not quality and not worth taking. My guess is he gets one more year to prove he can do it but I don't think he'll be here beyond 2010.
I'm not a schmuck in Akron, Ohio, and I'm a Heeb, as well. An older and apparently a much wiser one than you, Farkas.
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If you're not a schmuck in Akron Alan, what suburb do you live in?
I'm 62 years-old and retired at 57. If I want to work again, I will. Don't want to. But I do volunteer time.
Anyone that has dealt with the media knows that statements are often taken out of context, and the people involved know what the truth is. I was in management for a good portion of my career, and there things that got back to us about what people in the companies were saying as to the direction we were moving in and the decisions we were making and why, were constantly off base. I was open and honest with my departments and co-workers, and left it at that. No matter how much credibility I built up, there were still people like you attributing things to me that were wrong – and anyone dumb enough to listen to people like you just put themselves further behind.
Holmgren made it clear during the season that he wanted to get back in the NFL, and all people that knew him were reporting that he wanted to run a franchise as a President. And guess what – even though he was offered more, that's all he took. So the fact is – you don't have a clue as to what you're talking about.
Grossi had this today:
"Former Holmgren assistant coaches in Green Bay who became NFL head coaches included Andy Reid, Dick Jauron, Steve Mariucci, Ray Rhodes, Jon Gruden and Marty Mornhinweg."
Add in Sherman Lewis, a dynamic OC that he brought in, along with a few others, and it appears that he is above-average in hiring assistants and training them.
You live in your negative cesspool where everything in life is not perfect enough for you. For the first time in decades, I think Browns fans might actually be right in having some hope.
And by the way – who did YOU want to come here, and in what capacity. Post the persons name and I can take media clippings from the past as well as their record and spin it negative….if I were like you.
Farkas, larry d. is right, this is supposed to be about Quinn. Love all your comments about me, too. But this isn't about me, either. This is about a guy with ulterior motives that knows how to schmooze the media. A "football guy." Whatever the heck a "football guy" is.
Like I said, he might succeed, he might fail. But control and power. That's what he wants. That's why he's not employed with the Seahawks right now. Because he ultimately wanted Jim Mora's job, too.
But he's already starting off fibbing. But golly, he does it in such a nice way! And he does a cheerful weekly radio show and he's got grandkids!
Let's go for the trifecta and get rid of the Manidiot, Anderson, and Patrickm McManamon!
larry's going to crap himself after i write this but….
i think he's right.
Harry, interesting point you brought up about Lerner eyeing Holmgren last year. The question I have is, if Lerner liked Holmgren so much and wanted him so bad, then why in the heck did he even bother to fire Phil and Romeo after last season? Why bother even hiring Mangini in the first place? Lerner knew that Holmgren was going to take this year off and then get back into football. He already had Phil and Romeo under contract for 3 more seasons. Why not just ride them out another year and then go strong after Holmgren for the 2010 season? If Romeo and Phil turned things around this year and we were competitive, he could have gone with the flow and maybe still brought in Holmgren to head up the football operations and let Holmgren decide whether or not stay with Romeo and Phil or bring his own guys in. If Romeo and Phil stunk up the joint another season, then bring in Holmgren (or possibly Cowher) to clean house and start from scratch.
Because Lerner wasn't "eyeing" Holmgren last year, Tim, that's why. Lerner sometimes is slow, but he's not that slow. Just because some guy devoid of sources, like a Terry Pluto, for example, or some dufus Browns beat writer(s), toss out there the names of 50 implausible possibilities to fill up the word counts in their assigned newspaper spaces, doesn't make it so. Tim, in 2008, Lerner was "eyeing" for hire you, me, my dogs, my parrots, my cats, my ex-wife, larry d., terje, Pat McManamon, Pat's daughter Elizabeth, Solomon and Rick the Internet Stalker as much as he was "eyeing" Holmgren.
And speaking of Holmgren, I don't trust anybody that shilled for Rogaine and now pretends he never shilled for it. I just don't. It's also why I would never hire Jim Kelly or Karl Malone to be the Browns GM.
Tim, the timeline went something like this last year:
Saturday (12/27/08) – Lerner interviews Cowher and is told that The Chin will not coach in '09.
Sunday (12/28/08) – Lerner informs Savage before the finale against the Steelers that he is out as GM.
Monday (12/29/08) – Lerner fires Crennel. Lerner states that he has made inquiries about Holmgren, but was told that he will take a year off. Lerner says he will look into it further. Lerner is told during the presser that Mangini has been fired by the Jets. Lerner loses all sense of reason and immediately abandons all other plans so he can pursue Mangini.
12/30/08 to 1/7/09 – Lerner interviews Mangini and searches for a GM to work with EM. Lerner's choice for GM, Scott Pioli, tells Lerner he will not play second fiddle to Mangini.
1/8/09 – Browns officially hire Mangini.
1/25/09 – Mangini gets his puppet, as Browns hire Kokinis as GM.
Lerner had his mind made up to fire Romeo and Savage before he knew who would want to come to Cleveland as coach or GM. When Cowher shot him down, I think Lerner was thinking he would hire Pioli and then let him select the coach. Then he heard Mangini was available and quickly changed plans on the fly.
Harry: Any relation to Scott Farkas? You know, the bully in A Christmas Story with yellow eyes – he had yellow eyes!
What's the ratio of running plays to pass plays when either QB is playing? OC Dabol's poor play calling may have more to do with the bad QB preformance.
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