There were a lot of sick folks in the locker room after the Browns lost by a point in Detroit on Sunday.
Coach Eric Mangini kept saying he was "sick" for his players
""An ending like that can make you sick to your stomach," guard Eric Steinbach said.
A loss like that — giving up a one-yard touchdown pass and an extra point with no time left on the clock — does tend to make a team sick.
The Browns showed some life. Their offense did some good things. But the defense collapsed.
It added up to a sick loss in a season that started sick and has gotten progressively sicker with each passing week.
There were several plays to study in this game.
Let's take a look at a few:
–Starting with the Browns decision to throw the ball with 2:00 left on third and five. It smacked of Bill Belichick's decision to go for the first down on fourth down on Monday night, albeit Belichick's decision had a little more on the line.
The similarity was that both coaches went against the grain and tried to win the game right then and there. Eric Mangini even told Quinn on the sidelines that if the pass was not there to take the sack and keep the clock running.
Quinn didn't. He threw in the face of a rush, and threw wide.
That incompletion gave Detroit an extra 50 seconds on its last drive.
Bad decision? It'd be hard for me to say that when I said it was refreshing to see Belichick go for the win.
I'd call it more typical of the way things have gone all season with the Browns and will go the rest of the season. Nothing is working.
Mangini is a conservative coach. The odds in that situation cried for a conservative approach. He decided to be bold.
It didn't work.
What a surprise.
Was it worth the chance? The ending points out that it wasn't. Because Detroit never throws that last pass into the end zone had the Browns run more time off the clock.
–The pass interference penalty on the final play of the game.
The call was correct. It was made on Hank Poteat, who had his back to the play and hit Bryant Johnson at the back of the end zone when the ball was in the air.
The Browns cried that Stafford left the pocket, so they're allowed to be more aggressive.
This seems to be re-writing the rule book.
When the ball's in the air, a defensive back can't hit a guy and keep him from going to the ball. If that were true, DBs would be tackling receivers every time a quarterback rolls out.
Poteat had no idea where the ball was. He said he never saw the ball and was looking at the receiver and he's allowed to force the guy out of bounds when the quarterback leaves the pocket.
Not with the ball in the air, though.
Poteat hit Johnson in the back of the end zone with the ball in the air. Two referees threw flags. Johnson could not even try to get to the ball because of Poteat.
It was a painfully obvious penalty.
And a painful penalty.
The Browns seemed angry because they thought the call was against the guys covering Calvin Johnson. It wasn't.
I think when the Browns look at the video of this game they'll understand the call.
–The Matt Stafford injury.
Bottom line: The refs handled the end-of-the-game situation properly.
Stafford hurt his left shoulder when C.J. Mosley planted him on the final play of the game. The officials announced this was Detroit's "first extra timeout."
It made no sense at the time, but then read the NFL Rule Book posted online and it makes sense:
"… a fourth time out is allowed without penalty for an injured player, who must be removed immediately. A fifth time out or more is allowed for an injury and a five-yard penalty is assessed if the clock was running."
So Stafford was hurt, and time was stopped legally.
The clock also stopped for the pass interference.
The rule book states: "Fouls that occur in the last five minutes of the fourth quarter as well as the last two minutes of the first half will result in the clock starting on the snap."
Because time had run out, the last play was an untimed down. Remember Dwayne Rudd? The Browns have to be the only team in the history of the NFL to lose two games on untimed downs thanks to penalties on their players on the final play of the game.
–The Browns decision to call timeout when Detroit was lined up with Daunte Culpepper in for Stafford.
Not only did Eric Mangini give Stafford a chance to get back on the field, he gave the Lions a chance to regroup.
The scene in Ford Field — the finest football facility in the nation, by the way — was pretty chaotic as Daunte Culpepper lined up with the offense.
But Mangini chose to use a timeout.
He did the same thing against Cincinnati earlier this season, used an unnecessary timeout that helped the other team.
This time it helped the Lions get lined up and win. It allowed Stafford to go back in the game, legally. It allowed the Lions to catch their breath.
Detroit coach Jim Schwartz said he didn’t even change the play call after the timeout.
Tight end Brandon Pettigrew simply beat Jason Trusnick for the touchdown. Game over.
–The actions of Lions tight end coach Tim Lappano.
The refs missed this one.
Lappano ran on the field after Pettigrew caught the touchdown to celebrate. He was down hugging players near the end zone.
The Browns were flabbergasted no penalty flag for excessive celebration was thrown.
"If you're going to make calls like that keep it consistent," Browns guard Eric Steinbach said. "Because that guy was right in everyone's face. I've never in my career seen a coach run across the field to celebrate when there's still a play to be had."
Steinbach was right.
A flag should have been thrown, and had it been thrown the extra point would have been from 34 yards, not 19. It's still not that difficult, but it might have helped Shaun Rogers block it.
Who knows?
The refs missed that one.
Did it matter? Probably not.
Because in the big picture the defense played horribly and made it seem as if the Ravens and Bears merely played down to the Browns level the past two weeks.
The defense allowed rookie Matt Stafford to become the first quarterback to throw five touchdown passes in a game (at least since 1950, according to NFL.com). He also threw for 422 yards.
The Browns also had a 24-3 lead.
They gave that away.
They also intercepted a Stafford pass in the end zone with 3:40 to go.
All they had to do was run clock, then all they had to do was keep the Lions from going 88 yards to score and win the game.
They didn't do either.
The result: Another painful, difficult, how'd-that-happen to a team that seems to have the market cornered on these kind of losses.
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Well, the way I look at it is that we won't have to hear that the defense is fine, but the offense is terrible. You mazy have it right, Pat. It doesn't matter what the Browns do. They will find a way to lose.
Pat, thanks for the clarification of the rule regarding the fourth timeout charged to the Lions.
The 1st TD pass from Quinn to Massaquoi should shut up all of the "noodle arm" talk. The throw was on a line and traveled 60 yards and hit Massaquoi in stride. I'm disappointed in the loss, but I'm encouraged by the performance of the offense. I thought the play-calling was good, Quinn looked good and the receivers caught the ball well except for the TD drop by Jennings. I just hope the positives on offense will carry over to the Bengals game. Not sure what happened to the defense. I did think the Lion's o-line did a nice job of picking up the blitz on most plays and Stafford does have a great arm and they have talented receivers. Still, very disappointed in the defense today.
As far as the third down pass call with 2 min to go – I don't think you can even compare it to the NE call on 4th down. It was third down, not 4th down. Plus, the Lions still had a long way to go to get in the endzone once they got the ball. I understand that we could have given them 45 seconds or so less to work with, but who knows, they could have had a great punt return also that would have given them great field position. Hindsight is always 20-20 as the saying goes. If we complete the pass for the 1st down, like we did the series earlier, it's game over. Still not a bad call in my opinion with a chance to ice the game when the ball's in our control instead of giving it up to make our defense stop them on a day when the defense was playing so poorly.
the call to pass on 3rd wasn't quite in belichick's league of idiocy but it's just another thing in the long line of dumb things eric mangini has done in his career as a head coach. this game proves that the browns are just as bad as most logical people believed——–a total disaster.
Tim, that was horrible clock management, the pass play. Horrible. The right move would have been a run to get the first down. If they don't get it, then you let the clock tick off and take a delay penalty. Then, you either punt, or you even try a Belichick, and go for the first-down. You'd think the Browns' coaches have never watched an NFL football game. What they attempted was just stupid.
I still don't agree Alan. It wasn't 3rd and 12 – it was 3rd and 5. Run up the middle, and it probably isn't going to be a 1st down with our RBs. We don't have Adrian Peterson. Yeah, we chew up clock, but we still have to punt it, which could be blocked or the Lions could get a big runback. Also, we give them the ball with less time, but our defense wasn't playing very well all day so it's still a roll of the dice. Sure, the Lions chances wouldn't have been as good with 40-45 less seconds, I understand that. However, Quinn makes one short completion, it's game over – guaranteed. We kneel 3 times and that's it. Now from what's been reported, Mangini told Quinn if the pass isn't there, just take the sack to run some time. I guess Quinn just got caught up in the moment and thought he could get it in there, even though it was well covered. Still, the Lions had to go 80 yards with no timeouts, and if wasn't for a stupid interference penalty, we win anyways. I'm sure the interference penalty was Mangini's fault also and not the player's fault.
3 Words PREVENT DEFENSE- Lose
3 Words PREVENT DEFENSE " LOSE "
tim, you should apply to be mangini's official excuse maker.
Tim, actually, you're right. The interference penalty was indeed Mangini's fault. Indirectly. Poteat was one of Mangini's hand-selected talented Jets leftovers.
not only did mangini select poteat, kelly holcomb looked like a god against him in that steelers playoff game. the guy blows.
When I read all the hand wringing from Browns fans even after the offense seems to come to life I am reminded of the everlasting wisdom of American icon TV show Hee Haw and a song they sung that went like this…
Gloom despair and agony on me
Deep dark depression exsessive misery
If it wern't for bad luck I'd have no luck at all
Gloom despair and agony on me!
Granted the game was not televised here in Youngstown because the NFL allows CBS to choose between the Browns and Steelers in our market. But it sounded on the radio like Quinn threw the ball downfield…the one thing that everyone said he could not do.
It sounded like receivers actually caught the ball.
It sounded like he made smart decisions aka no interceptions.
And everyone is knocking the defense as if they haven't played their hearts out for the past how many weeks 40 minutes at least per game. How many defensive starters have gone down in the past 3 weeks?
And a shout out to Mr Lockdown tweeting his countdown…hopefully he'll be riding the pine till he boards a Greyhound.
OK, this question is for Pat. Pat, you've been calling for Mangini's firing for a few weeks now. What I want to know is this – in the modern era of the NFL (just say since 1980), how many head coaches have been fired after just one season when taking over a team that was 4-12 or worse the year before? Interim coaches don't count. I'm pretty sure Cam Cameron is not one of them, since I believe the Dolphins team he took over was either 6-10 or 7-9.
Run a reverse on 3rd & 5. First down allows for kneel down to end game. Miss first down then punt and leave Lions with 80-90 yards and only 65-70 seconds versus 113 seconds. Hail Mary would never have happened.
Poor Coaching.
Tim, what is your fetish with Mangini? Quinn, as lousy as that guy really is, completed 21 passes, and would have completed a lot more if his receivers didn't repeatedly do their finest impressions of Mr. Magoo. Again. The same receivers Mangini brought in. Mangini hired those assistant coaches. The same ones helping call all those brilliant offensive and defensive plays. And that's just for starters.
Speaking of starters, I like that injuries excuse a couple of posts above … Browns "defensive starters" who have gone down in the past three weeks. As if those guys would be "defensive starters" on any good NFL team. What's next, Phil Jackson saying they struggled on defense because Adam Morrison was home with the flu?
They scored 37 points against Detroit because Detroit gives up 30 points a game, that's why. It wasn't the Browns' offense. Anderson would have had a great game, too. If Mangini had asked Ozzie Newsome to track down Todd Philcox, then Philcox would have had a great game.
Alan,
Why do you call Brady a lousy QB? He has not even been given a chance. I would hardly call the 1/2 season of starts a fair amount of games to call him lousy. He is the best QB on the roster. He will get better with time. Experience is what he needs and he can throw the ball. I am not saying he will be a hall of famer but he can become a very good QB. Name a QB that has started out a great QB. They all go through growing pains. Montana included. Just give the kid a chance.
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What an em-bare-ass-ing loss for Chicago last night. Or is that spelled em-Bear-ass-ing?
http://xr.com/hs40
Folks: it was the Lions, not exactly an organization that has been successful in any of the most recent past. I'm not encouraged or discouraged about anything that transpired yesterday.
The coin flip determined as much of the outcome of the game as the players on the field did. I'm happy that players were able to find some offensive success, but again: they were playing the Lions…
Did Phil Dawson move ahead of Ratliff or Anderson on the depth chart at QB?
I'm not going to blame Mangini for this one. You'd expect your defense to hold the lead and prevent Detroit from scoring on the last drive with no time-outs. You guys can keep discussing the "should haves" and have a "are too, am not" debate. Hang this on the defense.
I can't believe how many different ways Eric Mangini's Browns find ways to lose. How can you blow a 24-3 lead against the Lions? How could you not manage the clock at the end of the game? Why call for a pass on third down instead of letting the clock run? Why call a time out to let Stafford back in the game? WTF?
eastsidejo, what team have you been watching all year? what happened yesterday on the lions final drive is EXACTLY what anyone who has watched this mockery of an nfl team expected. i was literally refreshing my espn gamecast while listening to the detroit announcers in anticipation of this game getting choked away by the players and the coach. i'm either clairvoyant or eric mangini and his ex-jets are that freakin' horrendous.
Patriots, Steelers, Vikings, Saints, etc….you get it, good teams. Put them in the same last play scenario and there is NO CALL in the endzone. No matter the sport, the bad teams get the bad calls. Everyone on this board has watched hundreds and hundreds of football games…….can anyone remember a pass interference call on a Hail Mary pass? Of course not! So, Pat, technically, it was a penalty….but one that is never, ever called. Technically, for that matter, Alan should have brain waves…….of course, it's all those football injuries that rugged, man-type Alan endured in his playing days.
Anyone who wants to make any pronouncements about the offense might want to wait six days. This is just like what we heard from all the crazies when they treated a loss to Cincy like a win, then the "win" in Buffalo like a playoff win. "Oh, we are turning the corner," I heard time and again.
How did that work out for you?
Just wait six days and see what happens. Scoring against the Lions, even if it's 137, tells us nothing. Hell, one game is always meaningless, regardless of the opponent. That could have been Pitt yesterday and I'd want to wait and see.
By the way, Pitt lost to KC, and Cincy lost to Oakland, so we ARE apparently the most miserable team in the league. Anyone still want to count KC and Oakland as two guaranteed W's later in the season?
What we really should be taking from this game is that the 32nd ranked defense in the league (that's last, for those counting at home) played like the 32nd ranked defense. So no more crap about the offense holding the defense back, or how they are so dog tired that they can't play because the offense can't win the time of possession battle. The only truth to that sentence is that the defense cannot play.
Bad teams (I mean, really, really, really, bad teams–historically bad teams) find a way to lose every week. They are ranked dead last in both offense and defense because, regardless of one decent game here or there, they stink it up pretty much every week, regardless of opponent, and in new and inventive ways that most of us cannot comprehend.
So, let us all take the most important lesson from yesterday to heart: The defense sucks not because the offense doesn't possess the ball enough—no, the defense sucks because the defense sucks.
Now, let's wait six days and see what happens with the offense. And let's all breath a sigh of relief that Mangini didn't get to add another win to his total, thanks in large measure to the worst time out I can ever recall being taken.
And, hey, Daboll, thanks a lot for sitting on that lead for three quarters. Smart move, man.
terje:
You rip on eastside by claiming that you and everyone else knew that Lions would score on that final drive.
At the same time, however, you rip Mangini for throwing on 3rd and 5.
Which is it? It can't be both. If it was obvious that Detroit would score on the porous Browns D, then throwing for the first down is EXACTLY the right call. If you wanted to complain that Mangini didn't go all the way Belicheck and go for it on 4th, too….
…well, at least that's consistent.
I understand that fans are frustrated, but I don't think this is just easily blamed on a bad coaching decision.
I don't have it out for Mangini, but don't endorse him, either. I think Randy needs to hire someone experienced to run the football ops, like he should have a year ago. Mangini reports to the new guy for as long as the new guy wants him.
tom, i only said it was obvious that the browns would manage to lose. i said nothing about the defense. besides, what did porous defense have to do with the loss? hank poteat's boneheaded play on a hail mary is what cost the team.
had mangini run some clock down i probably would have been wrong. but all season the most dependable thing about the team is the piss poor coaching from eric mangini.
what did porous defense have to do with the loss?
what?!?!?
they gave up 38 points to the DETROIT LIONS. that's what.
yes, but the deciding 7 points was due to a stupid play by a former jet.
If the porous defense hadn't let the Lions go all the way from the 12 to the 32, then Hank Poteat would not have been able to commit that penalty. If the porous defense had not already allowed 31 points, then that final TD wouldn't have mattered. If the porous defense . . . oh, never mind. Some idiots will never blame the defense for anything. They think the defense being last in the NFL is somehow the offense's fault.
The whole team blow, guys. The team blows, and the coaches blow right along with them. The front office blows. The owner blows. There is literally nothing right with any aspect of this organization.
Take heart from whatever you want to, but you are just deluding yourself if you do. Which, I guess, means you, too, could coach for the Browns.
i'm not saying that the whole team doesn't blow but the crappy defenses of both teams cancel each other out.
and about the defense letting the lions go 20 yards on their own end of the field….what would you have done? rushed 7 and left 4 morons alone in the secondary? giving up yardage in that situation is nothing to complain about. especially when they hadn't even approached midfield. the play that mattered had nothing to do with a defensive scheme. it comes down to the usual piss poor coaching and not only putting a player of such low caliber on the field but also having him commit a mindless penalty that good coaching would prevent.
my mistake miguel. about the det. 32. it was indeed the cle 32. so you have a point. still, a stupid penalty was the culprit not a breakdown on defense. a field goal in that scenario is worthless to the lions.
Hank Poteat would play like a Hall-of-Famer if Rob Ryan went to a barber and Jenny Craig. Somebody get that guy a full-length mirror for Christmas.
I like that Mangini is accusing Detroit of faking injuries to slow down his brilliant Peyton Manning-like no-huddle offense, and of accusing the officials of botching the pass interference call. I got the sense that the timeout was as much about Mangini losing his composure and needing time to scream at the officials as it was about setting up a defense. What a maroon.
yep, his supposed "discipline" has got right down the toilet. of course, to those who knew mangini's style it was nothing more than a myth.
One more thing that was high comedy, as least as far as all the Mangini homers are concerned, is the guy who was burned on the TD, Jason Trusnick, was acquired in the Braylon Edwards giveaway.
Braylon Edwards. Who is he again? I heard he's changing his name to Braylon Uno. One catch yesterday!
I'm really not sure what Edwards' catch has to do with acquiring crap that lost a game to the Detroit freakin' Lions, but whatever.
Is it time for the Browns to update their unis to something more modern-looking or should they stick with tradition?
I was probably more in the traditional camp until I saw these renditions done by uniwatch that were posted on the Waitingfornextyear site:
http://xr.com/b79
Some of these combos are pretty sweet looking and maybe it's time to stop living in 1964.
So now Trusnik is a "stiff" or "bust" because he blew one coverage? That's like calling a 1st round QB a "bust" because he throws an interception his rookie season. Let's see, who's the LB that caused Stafford to ground the ball that resulted in a safety? Yeah, you guessed it – Trusnik. Trusnik also had a few sacks and got several good hits on Flacco and Cutler the two previous games. Remember, he's only had significant playing time at LB in his young career the last few games. This kid has shown me more promise at LB in just the few games that he's been playing than just about any other LBs the Browns have had the last several years. From what I've seen, he's got a great motor, a knack for getting to the QB and he's a good tackler. His main weakness thus far? Coverage, and it showed this last game. He'll get better with more playing time. I've said this before, but just mark my words, this Trusnik kid alone will be well worth the Edwards trade. Oh yeah, that Stuckey kid didn't look too bad either, did he? He's finally recovered from injuries and the flu to get into the starting lineup, and he played well. I think he's definitely going be a solid # 2 or # 3 receiver that's worth keeping.
If I were Lerner, this is what I'd do. I'd continue to pursue my big-name guru like a Parcells or Holmgren to take over the football operations. I would just make one demand – keep Mangini for at least one more season to see how the team progresses. Then, he could do whatever he wants with him after next season. I'd make it clear to Mangini that the new head guy will have final say over ALL personnel decisions and back it up. If Mangini doesn't like it, he can quit and Lerner would be able to pocket the remainder of Mangini's contract. If Lerner can't find the big-name leader of the franchise that's willing to take the job, I don't see any point putting an inexperienced guy in that position. At that point, I would let Mangini have the complete control that he has now and just provide him the player-personnel type GM that the New England model has and give him 2 more years to prove what he can do. To me, that would be better than firing Mangini and then hiring an inexperience coordinator to be coach and then paying 3 coaches at the same time. If Mangini fails to turn the team around the next 2 seasons, then blow it up and start all over again. Yeah, keeping Mangini after this season would tick off the fans and the local media and may hurt ticket and merchandise sales in the short-term, but if the Browns start winning all of the whiners will be back stronger than ever in support.
on sunday, stuckey could have caught 8 touchdowns and trusnik could have sacked stafford a dozen times and that wouldn't have impressed me. it was the detroit lions for x's sake. the team that just gave the browns the keys to the basement apartment with the broken toilet in the nfl projects.
mangini's incompetence is astounding. tim, i'm guessing you've replaced your favorite sitcoms and comedies with reruns of mangini coached browns games. that's the only reason i can guess that justifies you wanting lerner to keep him around.