1) I'm thinking that right now the Lions ought to be favored by nine.
2) Imagine that. The Browns a more-than-deserving near-double digit underdog to a team that has one win since the start of the 2009 season. Say this for the Browns: They've earned it.
3) For the second game in a row, the Browns opponent played down to the Browns level, yet won fairly easily. Baltimore played about as well as Chicago played against the Browns, which is to say pretty poorly. One mistake by a cornerback, one mistake by a quarterback — game over. With never a threat that the Browns would come back on their own to win. Expectations have been driven so subterranean that it's worthy of celebrating when the Browns hold a team to a scoreless half.
4) Nothing Eric Mangini tries is working. Nothing. His quarterback competition. Working players harder. Bringing in his players. Forcing Cribbs into the wide receiver spot. Brian Daboll as offensive coordinator. George Kokinis. Calling timeout against Cincinnati, which only served to set up the Bengals touchdown that sent the game into overtime. Not calling timeout against Baltimore as his guys were trotting on the field when the Ravens lined up at the 13. Going no-huddle against Baltimore. None of it has worked. None of it. And were it not for a botched punt return by Buffalo, we surely would be looking at an oh-and-nine team right now. This is not bad luck, though. It's bad coaching. Bad coaching, bad decisions, bad everything.
5) Calling that hook-and-lateral with three seconds left and the Browns down 16 was inane. What was the point? The game was over. O-v-e-r. Running that play only served to injure one of the Browns best players. Yes, injuries are sometimes bad luck. But in this case the Browns made their own bad luck with an ill-advised play call at a point of the game when that call was not necessary.
6) It was almost as ludicrous as having Brady Quinn throw two bombs the previous two plays. Were those going to somehow tie the game? Even if they were .. . well … actually thrown inbounds.
7) When we assess the Browns offense Monday night, let's not forget the Browns were coming off a bye. Which means they had two weeks to prepare for Baltimore. Two weeks and they come up with that performance. The NFL is a passing league, and most teams move the ball by opening up the field and running receivers in different patterns all over the field. Except … the … Browns. It seems obvious now that the Browns have two different game plans for Derek Anderson and Quinn, and that the coaching staff does not trust Quinn to throw down the field, except in the rarest of instances or when they are down 16 and less than 20 seconds are left.
8) Eric Mangini said after the game that the Browns are trying to throw the ball downfield with Quinn. "We're not avoiding that part of the field," he said. Well it sure looks like they are. Just about every play Quinn ran was a quick rollout and quick throw. Usually for four-to-six yards. It looked like a JV offense for the high school team.
9) People say that we now know about Brady Quinn, that he's not an NFL quarterback. I'm not buying that. I don't think we know anything more about either quarterback because it's next to impossible to judge them based on the offense being run and the plays being called. I would not shrink from bringing in a new quarterback next season, but I also would not give up on Quinn because of this season.
10) I don't understand why Mangini didn't call for a timeout when he didn't have the players on the field with Baltimore at the 13-yard-line. The last Brown was trotting on the field as the ball was snapped. Mangini called that timeout earlier in the season against Cincinnati in a similar circumstance and he didn't need to. This time he needed to and he didn’t call timeout. Nothing is working. Too, how can it be that at this point of the season the Browns can't even get the right guys on the field for a critical play. Ten men with the other team lining up at the 13? This is the attention to detail that is stressed so much by this regime? What a joke.
Three and Out
Dear Pat,
I don't always agree with you, but I certainly do with your latest article. It's blown my mind that this is the third season that Brady Quinn has been a member of the team and we still don't know if he's an NFL quarterback. One of the best ways to help Quinn's confidence is to run the football and limit how many times he has to throw it. This is what Marty Schottenheimer did when they were breaking Bernie Kosar in 24 years ago.
It would be nice to see some close, competitive games in the second half of the season, huh?
Steve Bohnenkamp
Geneva IL
Dear Steve,
The Browns ran fairly well Monday night, but they had their backs run 24 times (including one WR reverse) and had Quinn throw 31 passes. This seems like forcing the pass to maintain balance, especially considering the passes the Browns threw.
As for competitive games … we've reached the point where we hope to compete against Detroit … Kansas City … Oakland.
Uncle.
Dear Pat,
Eric Mangini was such a terrible hire from the very start. My most pressing concern as a Browns fan is to see him gone. At the same time, I have this sinking feeling that the search for a new Chief Football Officer is going to be similarly botched—too rushed, too shortsighted, too fixated on a name.
Now, I don’t know if the Mike Holmgren rumor is for real or just one of those half-baked ESPN reports. But look at his resume in Seattle: In 10 seasons as coach he was 12 games over .500 (in a consistently pathetic division), he posted a 4-6 playoff record, and after four years on the job he was stripped of his GM duties (with a 31-33 record)—duties which he was denied in Green Bay.
So is Mike Holmgren any good at having final approval on players or constructing and leading an organization? Isn’t that the job? I’m not saying he wouldn’t be an upgrade over the current regime. I mean, the bar’s been set right at about ankle level. But even a future Hall of Famer can be unqualified, and at this point I’ve seen enough unqualified people come through town.
Michael Stevens
Boca Raton, FL
Dear Michael,
Valid points on Holmgren. Let me address some of them:
1) The Browns want him to be a candidate. Whether he becomes one is up to him.
2) Holmgren had the record you mentioned in Seattle, but he also took two different teams to the Super Bowl. That says something too.
3) He lost the GM job, but that's because he was doing two jobs. I think he's smart enough and knows football well enough that he could be a strong and positive guiding hand while doing one job.
4) Would Holmgren look more attractive if he brought Jon Gruden with him as coach?
5) Which of these names has the most rings: Holmgren, Bill Cowher, Brian Billick, Jon Gruden. Answer: All the above. They all have one.
6) I think you'll see a different type search this time than the one Randy Lerner conducted in January. I think he'll involve more people, ask more opinions and get more feedback. This is good.
If the Browns can hire Mike Holmgren, I'm all for it.
Dear Pat,
I know a lot of fans were hoping the Ravens would embarrass the Browns to hasten the departure of Mangini and to secure the overall No. 1 pick. And I kind of felt that way following the Bears game, amidst the intrigue of the Kokinis firing/resignation. But by the middle of last week I was actually looking forward to Monday night, dreaming that the bye would be a reset, the staff would finally get it together, and that in his return Brady would become the Mighty Quinn and begin a Browns career that would place him up there with other Browns championship QBs, like Otto Graham, and Frank Ryan, and……umm….well, you get my drift. And yea, the first half was OK because it was a draw and anything was still possible. Then came the third quarter.
And while it may be simplistic and unfair to distill this disastrous season down to one play, for me it all came down to one critical moment in this coaching regime's tenure. Score 0-0, just gave up a big play to the Ravens, but an opportunity remains to take back the momentum with a stop, where even a Ravens' field goal would be a positive for the Browns. And in the ninth game of the season, after two weeks to prepare, THEY CAN'T EVEN GET 11 MEN ON THE FIELD. Honestly, how is that possible? That, of course, led to Ray Rice's TD and that opened the door to yet another national embarrassment.
So while there is a lack of talent on the Browns, and competing with such a deficit is extremely difficult, it is now clear to me that this is really a secondary problem. The first problem, and one that will ensure failure regardless of the talent level, are the people coaching and preparing the team. Lerner must jettison Mangini now because he has no future with the team. Keeping him for the remainder of the season will only serve to scare off talented candidates for GM who don't want to worry about being stuck with an awful coach or don't want the hassle of having to fire him. Really, this is the only option that remains.
Dan Hough
Dear Dan,
I really can't disagree with much of what you say … but comparing Brady Quinn to Otto Graham? Wow.
That’s even worse than this colossal failure of a season.
(Want to be recognized in “Three and Out”? It’s a rare treat. Comment here or send an e-mail to pmcmanamon@thebeaconjournal.com, and put “First and 10” in the subject line.)
Hello Pat,
Regarding your fifth point … I am happy the coaching staff continued to call plays right up to the end of the game. Could they get a 16-point touchdown? No. But the team didn't give up until the final second ticked off the clock.
There are a lot of problems, but No. 1 has to be protecting the QB. I know third-and-long isn't a good position to be in, but the line needs to give Quinn (or Anderson) time to find someone.
Thanks
Rob
The team didn't give up until the final second ticked off the clock??? You seriously believe that?
Which game are you talking about or which season exactly? Because I personally feel the majority of the players on this team gave up by week 3 if not earlier. At this point, I wouldn't be surprised if Mangina has given up also.
But hey, maybe you're right, the solution for this season and the 10 before it is not being in 3rd and long situations.
Hey Pat,
Is there any chance that Lerner is waiting for the findings of the player's union about Mangini and his practice regime before getting rid of him? Maybe if these "invesigations" are true he can fire him and not pay him the rest of his contract. One can dream can't one?
Rob, "the coaching staff continued to call plays right up to the end of the game?" Did you see anybody rushing around in a no-huddle offense? Did you see any sense of urgency from ANYBODY, players OR coaches?
I don't care if Mangini assesses roster talent like Oprah's butt assesses toilet paper. He's still a head coach. This same purported head coach and his staff had 15 freakin' days to prepare for a single game. *15*!!! Knowing full well beforehand it was going to be nationally-televised and highly-scrutinized by media talking heads, even if it's just basic cable.
With his job likely on the line, and recently doing a hand-picked national interview for the very purpose of selling why he should survive the season and well beyond, this was the plan he chose to devise while on a national stage? How self-destructive can one man possibly be? Is this guy doing the Vulcan mind-meld with Delonte West, or what?
the bills fired dick jauron today.
they aren't going to waste any time with a lame duck as head coach. although mangini isn't a tenth of the coach that jauron is, randy is just going to stand idly by while eric the clueless drives the team into the sewer, injures the only good players and alienates any potential free agent of value that might consider coming to cleveland next year. just watch buffalo land a prime coach of the caliber the browns wish they had while randy sniffs his farts and watches aston villa.
terje, the difference is Ozzie Newsome didn't stand up and flip Cleveland's sideline the bird the way Bud Adams stood up and flipped Buffalo's sideline the bird. When an old rich guy wearing a bad toupee flips you off from his box, then you'd better do something to save some face.
yeah, but at least buffalo inspired a bird out of a rival owner. what could the browns inspire? a scratch of the nads, a yawn and a hershey squirt?
Can anyone come up with 15 players from this group that are actually worth keeping for next season?
I liked this a lot: "Said Robert Royal of Cribbs: "He was cracking jokes down there, so that was a good sign. He was waving his limbs. We don't know the extent of the injury, but at the same time we think he will be all right."
I thought the part, "He was waving his limbs" was unintentionally hilarious. The quote gave no indication if the limbs were actually attached to Cribbs while he was waving them.
I was embarrassed for Cleveland last night.
Mangini and everyone associated with him NEED TO GO NOW.
If Jauron gets fired for 3-6 WTF IS MANGINI STILL GETTING PAID FOR??
FIRE MANGINI NOW.
again how can a kid look very decent in 2 complete games 1 yr ago ? bad line? bad receivers? bad throws? bad plays? bad coaching? bad supplements? bad economy?bad bad leroy brown? argh!
MEKA LEKA HI MEKA HINEY HO!! ERIC MANGINI GOTTA GO!!
How is Quinn going to throw the ball downfield when there are three or four Ravens swarming all over him before he can look down field?
robert, that's not really an issue when the ball is 20 yards from being inbounds.
Quinn isn't very accurate — granted (although, at least, he throws an easier pass to catch than Anderson); and, I understand the offensive scheme (being that Quinn can run the no huddle and the Ravens blitz, so a whole game of quick short passes to hot receivers … er, sort of).
None of the receivers ran down field (thus opening up the underneath for shorter throws). I don't get that! Granted that when Quinn dropped back and set up, he only had an instant before the rush was there (and, yes, Mangini noted that), but a receiver doesn't have to be the primary receiver for his route to take a defender out of the area where a little dink could take place.
The library has a DVD of one of Sipe's games and I watched that (and enjoyed it). What jumped out was that he dropped back (and, yes, had time), surveyed the field … downfield … and only then, if nothing was open, looked to the side where he tossed a pass to the likes of Mike Pruitt, Greg Pruitt, Charles White, or Calvin Hill. I also noticed that when one of those outlet guys had to stay in and try to pick up a blitz, Sipe unloaded the ball in a hurry.
I swear, it all looked so simple and clear and logical.
Granted, the Pruitt's, White, and Hill are a lot better than who we have for a short passing game now, but the coaching was simple and clear and logical!!
terje, did you see Rutigliano on the point after? Quinn isn't accurate and 20 yards is an exagerration (20 feet isn't, though) … but Coach Sam said the sideline routes were being run incorrectly (meaning garbage coaching now when how to run a sideline route was known 30 years ago when Rutigliano coached). He said the route must be run five yards in bounds to provide a target for the QB, that the Browns receivers run it too close to the sideline. Not making excuses for the poor passes — only just one more example of bad coaching on the current staff ….
I agree with most of what people are saying about Mangini. I'm not sure why Lerner was in such a big hurry to hire him last season. This guy has not shown one good coaching move this season. All Mangini has does is turn a bad team into a horrible team. I would take a coach like John Gruden, who was working in the booth during the MNF game, if I can't get a guy like Mike Holmgren. When you have a team that can't even get their defense out on the field on time for a play that is simple bad coaching. As far as the quarterback situation goes. Dump DA, keep Quinn, and get a good veteran quarterback that can help show Quinn the ropes, even if you only sign that veteran qb for a season on two. Quinn has good athletic ability, just poor confidence. As far as the draft goes, I would draft a top notch LB or RB, with Lewis out the Browns could use a RB and this up coming draft will have some great RBs. But first, Mangini is not the answer, he's got to go.
keith-yeah it's an exaggeration but still, throw the damn ball at least close to the sidelines. i don't get the local browns stuff on t.v.—too far away. no lake erie air eating my brain cells.
I think Ralph Wilson watched the Browns last night and thought to himself…we really lost to THIS team??? Jauron….YOU'RE FIRED!!!
And I doubt we have to worry about Buffalo hiring a new head coach before the end of the year. The top candidates are going to wait until the season is over and survey all of their options and then let the bidding begin.
My worry is that Lerner will hire a czar and they will retain Mangini as long as he relinquishes player acquisition and names Carl Smith the offensive coordinator.
Dandy, Dandy sell the team for some more boy candy!
bad breath? bad Karma? bad socks? bad headphones? bad Kitty
? bad uniforms? bad acting? bad reporters ? bad columnist? bad blogs? bad burrito? honestly i cant put my finger on it what could it be ? and was that Waldo in the stands at the end of the game he's sneaky like that … like anybody was watching
I would prefer to have Holmgren come in as head coach rather than czar. If he does take over the team, other ex-assistants (besides Gruden) that he might consider to replace Mangini would be Steve Mariucci, Ray Rhodes, Marty Mornhinweg, Mike Sherman and Dick Jauron (haha).
Hey Pat, about your point # 5 above – did you even hear what Mangini said about the play? It wasn't a hook and lateral. Mangini said the play was just a simple throw over the middle and run. I've seen 1000's of football games in my life and teams that are down 16-0 or 50-0 and have the ball in the last seconds always continue to play and try to score. I've never seen a team down just kneel and run out the clock. Guess what – it's usually a deep hail mary throw or a short throw and run. The Browns called a short throw and run. Cribbs decided to improvise by doing the lateral. Of course, players many times do these type of things to try to score since they are competitive. It's just unfortunate that Cribbs happened to get hurt on the play.
As far as the team goes, here's my assessment. Special teams have been decent to good all year. The defense has made great strides and is now playing very well. Don't give me this garbage about how bad the Bears and Ravens played. Our defense made them look bad. At least be honest and give some credit to the team here. We got constant pressure on both Cutler and Flacco, getting sacks and several knockdowns. The tackling has been much improved. Sure, a few big mistakes here and there, but much improved. Too bad that 2 of the 3 areas of football on the Browns are now playing well but are way overshadowed by the absolutely horrific offense that we have. If our offense would just improve from pitiful to below average, we would be in most games. Now, the question is, does Mangini deserve a chance to turn the last phase of the team around or do we start over AGAIN? We have 11 picks which in my opinion should be used mostly on offense, especially on a stud right tackle and a stud RB and also add another receiver and another QB. We have 2 rookie receivers that are still developing, so the jury isn't out on them yet. I guess we have 7 games to try to somehow make some strides on offense.
Tim, on The Point After, they said despite what Mangini said….it was a designed hook and lateral. I'll believe Donovan, Rutigliano, Grossi and Dieken over Mangini any day.
THE BROWNS SUCK!
CLEVELAND SUCKS!
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!!!!
I don't know which is worse, the Browns or the Akron Zip at Infoprison stadium. Why does the Beacon constantly such up to those telemarketing aholes.
Give it up Browns!
tim, if mangini's lips are moving he's lying.
Well Brian, maybe you are right and Mangini is lying on this one, but how and the heck do Donovan, Rutigliano, Grossi and Dieken KNOW that was the call? Were they on the sideline or did they listen in on the coaches headsets? My bet is that they, like Pat, just ASSUMED it was a designed hook and lateral. I'm interested to hear what Cribbs says as far as the play call is concerned.
Ok, terje, Brian, Pat and all, I've finally seen the light. Mangini is evil. Actually, he's the devil – Lucifer, Satan himself. He wants us to think that he is a head coach because he enjoys teaching young players and building a winning team. However, this is just a mirage. His secret desire is to torture and murder all of the Browns players, but he knows that he'll go to jail if he does that, so he has to come up with a devious strategy. First, he practices them so hard during camp and during the season until they wish they were making Big Macs at McDonald's instead. The "opportunity periods" are a total deception. Innocent players go there thinking that they are to make them better football players, but they're mistaken – it's all part of his evil plan. Once they get there, coaches beat them with clubs and hammers, which explains the Davis and the recent young kid's injuries. Mangini particularly hates Cribbs and knows that he won't partake in the opportunity period. So what does he do? He devises an evil scheme to get him seriously injured on the last play of the game against the Ravens. How can we stop this evil man? He must be fired NOW! I'm glad that you guys have shown me the light!
Before Lerner does anything else, he needs to hire a proven, experienced football man to run the organization. Then this person should hire a GM and maybe the two can settle on the coach. This current organization was built a**- backwards. Lerner should then step away and only be involved when it comes to how much money he wants to spend.
The Cribbs injury was the result of a cheap shot. No other reason. The only alternative to what so many of you and Cribbs agent say shouldn't have been done, is to take a knee for the last couple of plays. That shows a lot now doesn't it. Let's watch all games, college and pro, and see how many teams take a knee on the last play if there's no chance to win.
Tim, you can watch The Point After here:
http://xr.com/ott
They discuss the Cribbs play at 3:30 in.
tim, what kind of man rats on his supposed mentor after benefiting from cheating under him for years?
the answer: a p.o.s.
We all know this team is bad. But the offensive line is supposed to be the best unit of the team with two first round picks and a highly paid free agent. The fact that they are under performing tells me a lot about the coaching and play calling.
Quinn certainly looked scared back there. He had poor foot work and released the ball to early even when he had time. But playing quarterback even against a good defense shouldn't be a suicide mission. If Pat is saying that Pat it is difficult to assess the talent on this team in many cases because the system and coaching is so poor, he is correct.
Still, I don't think Quinn is the type of player that is going to star in this league. He is a long term development project, He needs to float around the league for another five years like a lot of guys who develop into quality QBs. Where is Jim Ninowski when you need him?
Thank you for point #9. It is the equivalent of calling Tim Couch a bust after the '99 season, and yes, I do think there is about as much talent on this offense now as there was then.
Hiring Mangini was a big mistake, and making a mistake is much like digging holes: when you find yourself in one, stop digging.
Pat,
Re: #2. The Lions have one win since the start of the 2008 season.
And the Lions have 2 wins since November 4th, 2007. That's 2-31 folks.
unfortunately, the 0-16 lions of last year are a far better team than this year's browns. either the browns squeak past the lions or they get their asses handed to them by the lions.
First and Ten: Pat McManamon keeps getting worse
1. There's one to many syllables in his last name.
2. They actually pay him for writing the exact same column weekly.
3. There are two sides to every story, except his.
4. He has a Master's Degree in whining from I Hate U.
5. He's his own self-fulfilling prophecy.
6. He blames others for all the world's troubles including his lack of insight.
7. He really wants to be the Browns GM but failed Management 101.
8. His writing is so "pat" because it's easier than actually thinking.
9. He is on Art Modell's payroll.
10. His favorite movie is "Field of Dreams" but when he built it no one came!
Please go away!
krusty, only 4 out of 10 of those are actually funny or good. don't even post it if you can't hit at least 7.
I like Beside the Point and look forward to First and Ten every week. I like them both a lot. I like the forum for discussion, sure — but I especially like that Pat will say things that by the nature of his strong feelings on them give us more insight than others writing about the Browns. Of course no one always agrees with Pat, but the subjects open the discussion.
Last year, for instance, I very much disagreed with him on Winslow's suspension, etc. … and he not only printed my letter as the last "Are you an idiot," but went through it not calling me an idiot but writing a half dozen or more points on his disagreement and his reasons. He didn't entirely change my mind, but I didn't so strongly disagree with him when he was done … and it was all right out there for anyone else to join in the discussion.
So, when Pat says something you disagree with — tell him so … and then sit back and see what the rest of us have to say.
And thank you, Pat, for the blog!
Pat: Dan Hough did NOT compare Quinn to Otto Graham.
Re-read, please. He clearly stated that he dreamed the scenario. Much as we all would hope for the best. I can dream that Eric Mangini actually becomes a professional football coach ibeginning with this week who is the second coming of Paul Brown. This does NOT mean that I think he IS on a par with Paul Brown.
Just wishful thinking.
KrustyCorn is clearly someone workin with the Browns..Get off Pat's back, when he's right, he's right..This is the worst BROWNS TEAM EVER..Last Years Lions would beat this Browns team. We only got a win cuz the wind was 60 MPH in Buffalo. SHANAHAN is interviewing with the Buffalo now, cuz Lerner is waiting too long to get a jump on all the great coaches out there now. The BIlls are smart there lookin to next season already. THat's what we should be doing. I too hoped Brady would come out gunning after the Bye, but he's just not good. Look at the teams he played in College, Army, Navy, AirForce, that's where all his stats came from. FIRE MANGINI NOW, bring in Holmgren, Shanahan, Gruden, even Brian Billick. I would even take Jim Fassel over Mangini..Are Secondary is TERRIBLE we need to GRAB BERRY in the 1st round, he's another Ed Reed type player, a quarterback for the secondary for years to come.
Sigh. Okay, I get it. This is all Pat's fault. Never mind that Mangini has created a historically bad Browns team that features 18 players who are 30+ years old. Never mind that our offense literally can't score or that second round draft picks are gathering cobwebs on the bench. Mangini cannot hold all the power because he can't evaluate personnel (see St. Clair, Veikune, Royal, Womack, ad infinitum, ad nauseum.) Pat has pointed that out so it must be Pat's fault. It's amazing how people read Pat carefully every day so they can whine about his "whining." Pat ain't the problem.
Just curious. Does the offense ever score during the week in practice, and if they do, what does that say about the defense?
How many of you are willing to put yourself out there and make a suggestion of whom you'll like to have in Berea come January.
I seemed to me during the telecast that Jaws threw Gruden's name in the ring when he let it be known that Gruden's favorite team was the Browns. I wonder if Lerner was taking notes. Maybe if the Browns acquire cheerleaders the luck may change for the hapless team.
According to Cribbs, the last play of the game was called by Quinn instead of Mangini:
"It was a call at the line," Cribbs said, "It wasn't a call that came in from the coaches. Brady had let us know to keep the ball alive, that he was going to throw the slant to me at the line and to keep the ball alive. He gave the signal to keep it alive, but it wasn't a call that came in from the sideline."
Pat, Mangini awaits your apology.
Just curious, Did you ever work for the Cleveland Browns, Pat McManamon?
Solomon, yes Pat did work for the Browns…Art Modell had him clean the troughs at the old stadium after games.
as far as cribbs knows the call was made from the line. but quinn's the guy with coaches barking orders in his headset. there is not one single quote from brady quinn saying that he made that call on his own.
Well Brian, I applaud that you have come on here and aired the truth about the last play, even though you were so sure that Mangini was lying. I doubt that Pat or any other local or national media that lambasted Mangini since Monday night will say a word. If they do, it will be with little fanfare and will be shoved on the "back page".