I attended and wrote about the first Browns training camp practice Saturday. Wish I could offer some great insights from one workout, but it was really pretty vanilla. Mike Brown also discussed the loss to Orlando, and there's some more Indians financial stuff in Sunday's Beacon Journal.
Browns, Cavs and Indians … planes, trains and automobiles
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What's the difference. Indians "fans" suck. The team still wouldn't have been supported, attendance still would have been a joke, and there still would have been no revenue for the bloated ridiculous payrolls people expect. They could have a pitching staff with a team ERA of 1.00, but if balls aren't flying an outfield fence, that lazy chump in Garfield Heights and that obese turd in Parma would prefer to stay home and play with belly-button lint.
Exclusive hidden video of a rabid Cleveland Indians fan during a 93-win or a 96-win season: http://xr.com/vb7e6
the main reason the browns do so well in attendance is because it's acceptable for drunken, fat slobs to yell obscenities at grown men. it's a little hard to do that at the ballpark. the days of smoking dope and drinking from a bag at an indians game ended the last home game of 1993.
i was watching nfl's greatest something or other on the nfl network a while back. one of the games featured was the bottle throwing game against jacksonville. that's your typical cleveland sports fan. the fat loser who gets drunk at a football game and makes a public spectacle of themselves.
The Indians only draw fake "celebrities," like Michael Stanley. But the Browns attract actual celebrities, even at games when they throw bottles. For example, Drew Carey. Or Elton John: http://xr.com/pum
Here's a telling statistic:
1999 attendance: 3,468,436 (97-65, lost in 1st round)
2007 attendance: 2,275,911 (96-66, ALCS)
Attendance drop of: 1,192,525
Dear Fans: Put up, or shut up.
Take that 1,192,525, and multiply that by the ticket price.
If you guys are "doing homework", can you take a peek at the coaches and managers throughout the system between the two regimes?
I'd be curious to know who was in charge of the "prospects" and how these guys were developed. (and I'll let the snarky participants stick their steroids jab in here)
I'll buy into the rebuilding if I know that the people we have in Mahoning Valley, Kinston, Lake County, Akron, and Columbus know what they're doing. It is at these levels I believe we need guys who can coach. We can leave the catchphrases for the corner of "Carnegie and Ontario".
I guess my frustration stems from the fact that (a) the AL Central is a craptastic division and winnable by any team who can get their stuff together and (b) the arrogance of a general manager and field manager who went to opening day with a rotation of Lee (legit), Pavano (cross your fingers), Carmona (cross 'em a little harder), Scott Lewis (career reliever who had 4 nice outings last September) and Laffey? (who won the coin flip with Sowers apparently), and (c) used spring training like little league – every one on the 40-man roster got playing time instead of trying to figure out who the 25-man roster and line-up would be.
Fine, be cheap, but be smart about it.
Elizabeth, your steroid reference wouldn't be snarky, it would be the truth. Besides, Hart and his minions left the minors in shambles. Also, Hart tossed out crapshoots as pitchers, too. Because Jacobs knew the games were already sold out, and pitchers don't bring in a penny of added revenue, anyway. I think Jacobs would have been satisfied with a 0-162 record so long as the revenue kept pouring in.
Point noted that they also have not done a good job with the minors under Shapiro and his minions. That has to change.
Laffey started the year in AAA. Remember Anthony Reyes?
Maybe I'm wrong, but I doubt there was much turnover in the minor leagues, transitioning from Hart to Shapiro. They seemed to be clones. It is interesting, however, that our AAA hitting coach was able to get Andy Marte straightened out, not our big-league staff.
Those mid-90s teams did have some interesting pitchers. Mark Clark? Ol' Jack Morris. Even some career minor-league knuckler for a couple games. But man, were those games fun when Dennis Martinez took the hill.
Terry Clark was the old pitcher. Started four games in '97, our World Series year. And people complain about our current rotation?
for all the crap plunk, shuey, assenmacher and the like took in the 90's they should be revered like gods here now.
i'd be curious to see what torey luvullo's staff at AAA could do here. wouldn't mind seeing shapiro give them a chance at the big job for a few months. quite a few players have helped from AAA immediately upon calling up only to peter off. it's a natural thing for the majors to get used to you, but if you think about how some of the guys like sipp and jackson and huff did immediately upon recall – it makes you wonder
Thanks Biff… and sorry Anthony. I kind of knew in the back of my head that Laffey was on Wedge's list and didn't make the opening day roster.
I'm not sure I'm for "Calling up" the AAA staff – because that's how we got stuck with Wedge in the first place. I mean, they ran Skinner and Datz up through the ranks too – and their teams won various titles too. But Wedge was on a faster track – I think he was in Akron for 2 seasons after Skinner, then replaced him at Buffalo for at least one season before they handed him the reins in Cleveland.
I started to wonder this year why MLB teams don't cherry pick coaches – even if its just for the minor league system – from the college ranks? I'd love to have a proven college coach with a track record of developing and coaching players in the system, knowing that they could work with the minor leaguers. I think a lot of the time the minors are staffed with former players looking to get in, but who don't necessarily have coaching abilities.
But if we're tossing 2010 away already, might as well stick with Wedge (shutters while typing) or give Torey a shot. I honestly don't have too much of an issue with the rest of the current staff except Shelton and Hernandez. For the life of me, I can't understand how an offense can scuffle season after season and the hitting coach is slathered in teflon. (Willis is fine – I think Wedge is the one who pulls the trigger on the pitchers staying in the games)
I agree with Elizabeth. Please name me one hitter, just one, who has turned his career around at the plate under the guidance of Derek Shelton. The perennial slumps of Peralta, Victor, Sizemore, Hafner, the leftfielders (Dellucci/Michaels/Francisco/Gutierrez), Cabrera–nice '09 rebound–and now the useless Shoppach…all render our offense void.
It's either all the players, or their instructors.
And I certainly don't give Carl Willis a pass for his work. Our Cy Young winners were not due to him, by any means. We've had far more Carmona and Jensen Lewis collapses than ANY pitcher taking a leap forward. That's not even debatable.
Name me some players "who turned his career around at the plate" preceding Shelton, let alone without the use of "tainted nutritional supplements." Go ahead, I dare you. I double dare you.
How about "name a player who has actually improved under the tutelage of Derek Shelton?"
The approach that Indians hitters have at the plate is terrible. Grady Sizemore, Travis Hafner, Ben Francisco, Ryan Garko, Andy Marte… how many guys have to fail to develop under Shelton before he gets the ax?
If I was Mark Shapiro, I would have to punch Shelton in the face for ruining guys like Francisco and Marte and making them essentially untradeable. It's by far the best argument for why Matt LaPorta hasn't been allowed anywhere near the Indians' dugout this season.
Here's some other stuff I've learned about that selfish greedy scoundrel Jacobs.
You know those big attendance numbers when the stadium was shiny brand-new and people would have filled the place no matter how bad the team might have been? The first 1.85 million people who attended games each season? Jacobs got FREE RENT while also receiving 100% of all parking, concessions, luxury suites and advertising!
You know the tiny percentage privately paid towards the new stadium entirely built for him? Not paid by him. PAID BY TICKET-BUYERS WHO WERE FORCED TO BUY PERSONAL SEAT LICENSES.
Do you know Jacobs demanded more corporate loges in a baseball-only stadium than any other stadium in the entire major leagues? 124. Sold out before the stadium opened!
Do you know that the majority of those corporate loges were signed to 10-year leases for ONE MILLION DOLLARS PER LOGE! (Where are those wealthy corporations now? Either out of Cleveland or out of freakin' business.)
But let's blame Dolan for people not showing up and for Dolan dumping payroll.
I've always liked that word. "Tutelage."
I'm always more inclined to blame players over coaches, and I'm not really of the opinion that wedge is a problem at all. But the first week of callups have gone well, and for PR reasons, I don't think they can keep Wedge past this year. Which is silly, but you have to make managerial decisions on economics and PR sometimes too…
I don't think they'll go outside the organization for a guy – unless Shapiro really knows the person, because I think he believes in making decisions with his manager, and would go with the devil he knows over the one he doesn't.
So I think they should do the columbus shuttle sooner than later.
But blaming coaches and managers or praising them seems so ridiculous. I bet most every teams' record over the course of a couple years would end up almost exactly the same if MLB banned managers and coaches.
It's a known fact that both Hargrove and Manuel juiced. So did Ken Aspromonte and Alvin Dark.
Wedge? Clean. Nothing but banana smoothies. Draw your own conclusions.
alan – maybe ronnie belliard?
2nd, 8th, 7th, 6th – indians rank in runs scored since 2006
the only think charlie manuel was juicing here was prunes
I wonder if they have the cajones to offer the field manager/GM job to John Farrell. Not that I think he can fix this mess, or he'd leave Boston, but is that what its going to take: giving someone all the power basically and let it all rest on that guy's shoulders?
Farrell? Bud Black was they guy they wanted long long ago, he's really tearing it up in Tijuana. Luvullo…. I wonder if they'd ever think of Travis Fryman out here in A ball right now.
Oops – I can't fathom Farrell leaving Boston unless something great opened up. He's got that dave duncan/leo mazzone vibe these days.
John Farrell?? Isn't that the same guy responsible for helping to ruin M*A*S*H? He's already ruined a TV show, why do I want him to ruin a baseball team?
One other thing … do people really want to revert back to the first part of the Jacobs chaos? Seems like it. Part of the great Jacobs Myth is that it was a steady hand and a smooth-sailing ship. Try five managers in his first four seasons.
This is a comparison of total payroll over the course of their first 10 years of ownership respectively. These totals *are apples to apples*, all numbers are adjusted to account for inflation and all totals are equivalent to 2009 dollars:
Year 1 Jacobs $16,165,000
Year 1 Dolan $95,946,000
Year 2 Jacobs $16,294,000
Year 2 Dolan $113,451,000
Year 3 Jacobs $15,820,000
Year 3 Dolan $94,489,000
Year 4 Jacobs $23,908,000
Year 4 Dolan $56,953,000
Year 5 Jacobs $27,928,000
Year 5 Dolan $39,187,000
Year 6 Jacobs $14,410,000
Year 6 Dolan $45,836,000
Year 7 Jacobs $27,706,000
Year 7 Dolan $59,948,000
Year 8 Jacobs $44,376,000
Year 8 Dolan $64,157,000
Year 9 Jacobs $53,694,000
Year 9 Dolan $79,113,000
Year 10 Jacobs $66,134,000
Year 10 Dolan $82,000,000 (est. prior to trades)
Jacobs Average Payroll: $42,900,300 (adjusted for inflation in 2009 dollars)
Dolan Average Payroll: $73,108,000 (adjusted for inflation in 2009 dollars)
Jacobs Average Payroll After New Stadium Opened: $69,245,500 (adjusted for inflation)
Dolan Average Payroll After New Stadium Opened: $73,108,000 (adjusted for inflation)
Oh, crap, sorry … I was e-mailing a friend with these figures, like an idiot I accidentally posted it here again, didn't mean to post it …
But if we leave the current group in place, are things going to get better? I'm not sure I want to hang around for "The Plan 2.0: The Rise of The Rubber Armed Prospect".
cnpeters, those runs-scored figures are so misleading. It wouldn't be so bad, if the team scored 4 or 5 runs per game on a regular basis. It's just far too much inconsistency….the 12-5 wins, followed by 7-1, 3-0, 4-2, 8-3 losses that just kill us.
If Bud Black had been available, he'd have been here by now.
Alan, this is the first I'm hearing about baseball PSL's. Got more facts on that?
I love this … man oh man, what you discover on the Internet … I was reading this case study, stumbled across this … is it any wonder Jacobs never put a penny into payroll for years … an advantage Dolan doesn't have …
"Cities sometimes contribute to the monopoly power of teams by committing themselves to projects despite having no corresponding guarantee from the franchise. For example, in May 1990 the residents of Cuyahoga County, which includes Cleveland, voted to approve the construction of a new baseball stadium for the Indians and a new basketball arena for the Cavaliers, who were playing in the Richfield Coliseum in a nearby suburb Unfortunately for the residents of Cuyahoga County, the Indians did not agree to lease terms until December, and the Cavaliers did not agree until even later. Worse still, the teams had not even agreed on architectural plans for the new factices. Having committed themselves to new facilities, the civic leaders forfeited any bargaining power with the franchises. The teams were able to insist on added features like two stadium suites, two office complexes, and a restaurant, all at no extra charge to them. These add-ons led Jacobs Field to cost about $48 million more than estimated and Gund Arena to cost $73 million more, almost double the arena’s estimated cost."
Jake, as of late I've been doing a ton of reading regarding sports economics, and because I'm getting so freakin' forgetful, I've the library card fines to prove it. Most recently, I've been doing a lot of research regarding Modell. This is an excerpt from one sports economics book:
"Modell's stadium fantasies were undoubtedly fueled by the experience of Cleveland's MLB Indians and NBA Cavaliers. In May 1990 the county voters approved (by a narrow margin of 51-49 percent) an increase in the tax on public services like parking, as well as a new "sin tax" on cigarettes and alcohol, to raise the money to build a new $460 million Gateway Complex. Gateway included a baseball-only Jacobs Field for the Indians, a Gund Arena for the Cavaliers, plus parking and office space for the teams and their fans. The clubs contributed only modest amount to the construction costs (funds raised by selling personal seat licenses or PSLs to fan who wanted to be season-ticket holders) and would pay a low rent. In return, each team kept all the revenues generated by its facility-gate receipts, luxury boxes and club seats, concessions, parking, and advertising-as well as the fees charged for non-sports events held in their facility. Public officials and voters were prepared to make that huge investment on behalf of the Indians (and the Cavaliers) because MLB Commissioner Fay Vincent had told them that the franchise met baseball's standards for relocation: attendance was consistently low (though team performance was as well); the team was playing in an unattractive ballpark; and a negative vote on the tax referendum would be viewed as a lack of community support."
A letter was negligently left out by me, it should say selling PSLs to *fans*, not fan. Although, I think right now saying "fan" would be accurate.
Well, I think we're safe – we won't lose the Indians because that would involve Selig doing something
A lot of cities snowball their ways into new stadiums. The good folks of Avon, OH voted on an income tax to build their independent league stadium and new YMCA – the tax is on the incomes of those who work in Avon, but don't live there (teachers, police officers, fire fighters, postal workers, etc.). The best part about it is this league in notorious for leaving its cities after two or three years. In fact, the league has been in existence for a little over 16 years and only two of the teams are still in the original cities.
Like I've said – I can get past the money if I can see that there will be a significant effort to improve how we "develop" the prospects. The fellas have a three month buffer right now, but come the middle of October, I hope (crossing fingers and toes) that there is some serious house cleaning.
Too many fans, however, want to point back in the past to the abberration phenomenon of 455 sellouts to "prove" their support. Those same fans who have turned on their own team for no good reason will be real surprised one day when the Commissioner again says, "absolutely, the Indians meet our criteria for moving. Support is down 1/3 to 1/2 on a consistent basis, and there are other more lucrative opportunities for this franchise elsewhere." It's a business, folks. Don't think for a minute that such a move couldn't happen, especially if you keep pounding that "sell the team" drum. No other local buyer would take the team. In fact, only the late Bart Wolstein put in a bid when the Dolans bought. Can you imagine the Wolsteins as owners? You think we don't spend enough NOW. Ha! Hoo-boy.
Games in which Indians scored 4-6 runs
1995 47
1996 57
1997 52
1998 61
1999 50
2000 55
2001 56
2002 61
2003 54
2004 56
2005 62
2006 61
2007 59
2008 54
I don't mean to soudn the drum that everything is good to go here – it's clearly not ideal – but I think that 85% of the Indians situation on a yearly basis is due to the reality of living in one of the smallest poorest markets in MLB.
Actually, during those "glory years" (only in Cleveland does it make sense to call "glory years" the years in which you didn't win a damn thing), the difference was the slugging percentage. The pitching bit the big one most (not all) of those years, but the slugging percentage is what excited people along with the new stadium. Who gives a crap about pitching when the people come to see only hitting. Aside from Cleveland being a horrible baseball town, I think this explains other empty seats, win or lose.
1994 – 1st in AL
1995 – 1st in AL
1996 – 2nd in AL
1997 – 2nd in AL
1998 – 5th in AL
1999 – 2nd in AL
2000 – 2nd in AL
2001 – 2nd in AL
2002 – 10th in AL
Wasn't Cleveland ranked the #1 or 2 poorest city in America? Without LBJ, the Cavs would not be selling out (although I have to believe most of those seats are corporate…who could afford those prices). And without the obsession with football, the Browns wouldn't sell out either. Although, again, corporate $ and fans who simply choose to spend on football vs. baseball is the problem.
BTW, I'd take 4-6 runs every day, if I were the Tribe. It's excruciating, like last night, suffering thru a game with 5 hits and 1 run. It's like a bad rerun here.
Alan is right, baseball fans want to watch offense. Why not give the customer what he wants? We didn't win in the 90s, but they are still recalled with great reverence. Fans may not know why. But it's because of the consistent longballs.
When the Dolans and Shapiro took over, they immediately stated that they would be building around "pitching," which *sounds* good and all. But in all practicality, it's not the way you fill a ballpark at ALL. Again, Clevelanders have proven they will buy seats to watch heavy offense. But in '05 and '07, when pitching dominated, there was little interest. Had there been more mashers in the lineup, I believe the sellouts would have followed.
I would love to watch something than the "Doubles or Homers or Bust" offense to be perfectly honest. I'm trying to cut down on my complaining here, but there is plenty of 'raw material' to work with that could make the offense exciting for the average fan without trying to stage a nightly home run derby.
The first step is admitting you have a problem. And the Indians don't think that they do. If they want to base an offense around a DH who plays 3 days a week and a SS/3B who 'gets hot' for the last two months of the season, best of luck to ya!
Shapiro signed him with that strategy in mind. Elizabeth, what are they supposed to do with Hafner? Really, I would like to know. Shapiro does something bold and gambles, and the Cro-Magnon druggie falls apart like Wayne Garland locked inside a laundromat clothes dryer on permanent press.
the real problem is that we live in a market where you assemble your team for reasonable amounts, then supplement and pay for it when you have a chance – much like we did in the last 3 years – I know it doesn't seem like it, but paying money for a #3 like Jake, a DH like Travis, a closer like Wood, a C like victor, etc , etc…
That's fine – and probably the proper strategy here – but in a market like this – when some things go wrong, there's no real way out. we can't go buy better parts to supplement. you hope there's parts ready to call up that can plug holes – but that only goes so far.
There's a story that the indians will lose 16 million this year.
to me that seems really low
I give the Tribe credit for finally stepping out and bringing baseball's financial inequities to the forefront. Local fans and talkshow hosts just won't believe that it's possible their team could lose $16-million. But why not? Talent has been put on the field, big bucks have been spent on free-agents, the team won more games than anyone in baseball just two seasons ago…and the fans turn a blind eye, crying "you're cheap." Fans are imbeciles.
The Dolan family has provided solid ownership, but for some unknown reason, they are attacked non-stop. They're not selling, folks. No one else is gonna step in and lose money in this market. Either get behind your team and ownership, or you will lose baseball here forever. Your choice.
Why must the fans and talkshows continually foster a negative relationship with the management? It's just bash, bash, bash. Seriously, why don't fans see this as "their team" and "their owners," rather than always being antagonistic and angry and vicious? You do realize it's just a game, don't you?
Take a gander at these latest figures I've compiled, all totals again adjusted for inflation and equivalent to 2009 dollars. All of the Indians' payrolls from 1987 through 2009. Look particularly at #5. Also, look at #17-23. Some of those payrolls were even lower than the Expos.
But remember, it's Dolan who's cheap.
#1 – Dolan $113,451,000 (2001)
#2 – Dolan $95,946,000 (2000)
#3 – Dolan $94,489,000 (2002)
#4 – Jacobs $94,483,000 (1999)
#5 – Dolan $81,626,000 (2009)*prior to trades
#6 – Jacobs $80,450,000 (1998)
#7 – Dolan $79,113,000 (2008)
#8 – Jacobs $76,336,000 (1997)
#9 – Jacobs $66,134,000 (1996)
#10 – Dolan $64,157,000 (2007)
#11 – Dolan $59,948,000 (2006)
#12 – Dolan $56,953,000 (2003)
#13 – Jacobs $53,694,000 (1995)
#14 – Dolan $45,836,000 (2005)
#15 – Jacobs $44,376,000 (1994)
#16 – Dolan $39,187,000 (2004)
#17 – Jacobs $27,928,000 (1991)*ninth-lowest payroll in all of MLB/1991
#18 – Jacobs $27,706,000 (1993)*third-lowest payroll in all of MLB/1993
#19 – Jacobs $23,908,000 (1990)*fifth-lowest payroll in all of MLB/1990
#20 – Jacobs $16,294,000 (1988)*fifth-lowest payroll in all of MLB/1988
#21 – Jacobs $16,165,000 (1987)*fifth-lowest payroll in all of MLB/1987
#22 – Jacobs $15,820,000 (1989)*fifth-lowest payroll in all of MLB/1989
#23 – Jacobs $14,410,000 (1992)*LOWEST payroll in all of MLB/1992
Some other unintentional comedy I've dug up during the course of my research: Have you ever heard the Dolan haters ramble on and rant that Jacobs paid a luxury tax? Do you want to know how much that "luxury tax" was?
In 1997, $2,065. In 1998, $24. And no, that was not a typo. $24. Literally the cost of a decent family meal at Red Lobster.
Whoops. Color me an idiot. I left off three zeroes. 1998 luxury tax was $24,000. A loaded Ford Taurus SHO.
hey mitch, eric wedge and mark shapiro suck my a-hole. that's my beef with the dolans. not the payroll.
I'm not sure you can get a decent family meal at Red Lobster for any price, alan.
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