As bad as the Cliff Lee trade looked and felt, this one looks and feels worse. Victor Martinez spent too many years with the Indians and was too good a player and valuable a teammate for it not to be bad.
Boston acquired one heck of a good hitter, and the Indians have traded away two Cy Young winners and an All-Star catcher and gotten not one ready-for-the-major-leagues-today player. Wow. There's just no way to put a smiley face on that fact.
But … about a month ago an Indians type told me that the way the team was constructed as it contended in 2007 would only last one more year past this one. Evidently he was looking at the contracts that expired in 2010, and the reality that the team might not be able to sign the key players. After 2010, there would be a rebuild on the fly … with different core players.
Clearly that timetable has been moved up. And it was brought about by the financial realities the team is facing that we all hate to talk about and hear about. Once the realities were made clear to the Indians that next season's team could not be supplemented at all, the decision was made to tear it down now and start to act on things immediately. To start building again with young players, and hope that these young players could grow into a team the way the young players did in the 1990s and the mid 2000-zeroes.
The process sure stinks, though.
"And it was brought about by the financial realities the team is facing that we all hate to talk about and hear about."
You neglected to type any words about the belief that there are financial realities. People talk about it and hear about it, but people with bones for heads refuse to believe it.
Who knows, maybe this may be a potential guise for a Gund-type guise thing. Pare down payroll to nothing to make it more attractive to a potential buyer a couple of years from now. It would make perfect sense, and not just from the rebuilding standpoint.
Hey Pat,
If our General Manager and the talent evaluators in the organization were doing their job the past seven years, we wouldn't have to gut the team in order to "replenish" the minors.
When is someone going to write about that?
Besides the book which also describes the Jacobs and Gateway ripoff scams called "Sports, Jobs, and Taxes" by Roger Noll and Andrew Zimbalist, a great resource which people should read from cover to cover so they might stop talking like complete morons about this subject is "Diamond Dollar$: The Economics of Winning in Baseball" by Vince Gennaro. Great book.
Not too thrilled with tearing down the team, but if nobody is going to buy season tickets or show up, I can certainly understand, no matter how wealthy an owner and/or owner's family appears to be. They're all businessmen, they're not civic charities, even if they're indeed in cahoots with the politicians to rob the taxpayers blind.
The reality is that I have been an Indians fan for 48 years with zero championships and now we're rebuilding again. In 4 years we'll be trading these guys. Until MLB changes it's rules there's no point of me wasting anymore of my time or money.
The Indians were not that far away. Now they are once again. I quit!
It's true that the scouting has sucked this decade, but by the same token, they don't have Jacobs' luxury of tossing out 105-game losers pretending to be a big league team, with the tacit understanding that every available resource is going into the minors.
Gary is spot-on.
hey—we will DEFINTELY lead ALL of baseball in tall pitchers—kind of reminds you of Mangini going for "smart" ballers—only in Cleveland do we do things in themes, unrelated to TALENT.
I think that the Cleveland Indians should be kicked out of the American League.
They are making a travesty of baseball in Cleveland
rmk, akron
I realize Pittsburgh based PNC bought out Cleveland's National City but when did the Pirates buy the Indians. Mark Shapiro should be embarrassed about the product he is putting on the field. Shapiro is nothing more than a puppet. Have some self respect and resign the pay isn't worth it. I gave up my season tickets two years ago. Best financial decision I ever made. Mr. Dolan has to realize HE has to invest first then the fans will come, not the fans invest in a garbage product and then he might spend some money. Coming up on age 40 I don't think I will ever see a championship and especially if the Dolan family is involved.
the tribe built to compete the last few years and the playrs didn't compete! If the tribe played up to expectations the last 2 years the point would be moot. they did not to all of our frustrations! The only option is to replenish the youngsters and hope they pan out. victor will be missed but they tribe must look toward the future. The present has disappointed!
NO WAY can Wedge or Shapiro be blamed for this. Remember a few years ago when Dolan said he would put more money into the team when fans started showing up? A little reality check for ya Dolan……what you've done to the Indians doesn't warrant ANYONE showing up. Do everyone a favor and sell the team. Your childhood dream of owning the Indians lacks one key ingredient…..money…….
this trade doesn't make me mad at all because i've stopped giving a crap about the indians and mlb.
congrats mlb, you've flushed 30 years of following mlb down the toilet. i'm not foolish enough to believe that most people feel the way i do because attendance is still ridiculously high overall. but i can't believe that people who are knowledgable about the game would waste their time on this product. it's probably better to follow wwe—a circus with muscles is better than a corrupt system masquerading as a sport.
Time to Get Out the Pitchforks!
This is a call for ALL TRIBE FANS TO BOYCOTT THE REST OF THE TEAM'S GAMES this year, and possibly into next year.
I live in the Pacific NW so don't attend, but please local fans send a message to the Stepians – I mean Dolans in that town and give THEM the same support they give US.
Dealing with a losing team my whole life so far of 44 years, added to my dad's that dates back to 1932, this is just awful.
Do you realize that 1997 is TWELVE years ago?
Don't the Dolans remember that we LOST to Boston 2 years ago – and now we give them one of our best players?
Outrage, sadness, pitchforks, boycotts and it breaks my cleveland heart.
Steven G. and Rob: Why won't you listen and understand?
The Dolans have POURED money into this franchise. They've had enormous payrolls, much higher than Dick Jacobs every had. The fans, as Alan correctly points out, did not respond. We contended in '05 and '07…and fans stayed away. The owners DID their part, the fans did not.
Thus, you get periodic tear-downs, salary-wise, just as in any other business.
If you still don't believe the Dolans made the money investments, season after season, you need to read Pluto's "Dealing."
The owners are far from the problem. It's Shapiro and the apathetic fanbase. And as long as those two things continue, our payrolls will—very understandably, from this point forward—be reduced to coincide with the simple business law: Supply vs. Demand.
depressing to have a weak financial, weak minded, weak in character team leadership.
You're right Rob, Dolan put money into the team before anyone showed up… and LESS people showed up… all Dolan's fault!
81 mil… lacks money…
Done, done , done with the Indians!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Rob, more fans DIDN'T show up! That's the facts, man. They missed going to the World Series by one game, but where were the season-ticket sales for 2008? They sure weren't in Cleveland.
I will never, ever, ever, ever.ever buy any Indian apparel, buy the TV baseball package, attend a game-forget it. This smells worse than those dusty road trips to my great grandfathers home in West VA. I watch the Rays, Twins, Tigers to name a few that have succeeded without the huge disparity in baseball without a cap. But to lose our CY young winner last year although I swallowed it for LaPorta, but this year to lose Lee, I thought..mmm, maybe they know something I do not but I held by breath till 4pm to watch Victor go-my dear God-and for what??? Do you not get something in return for your best??
Forget it-Dolan-read this-I AM DONE!!! SELL -PLEASE SELL-RETIRE, GO LIVE ON SOME ISOLATED ISLAND COUNTING WHAT $$ YOU HAVE LEFT-IDIOT!
As a Tribe fan living in Boston, I'll be happy to watch Victor Martinez play on a competitive team. What stinks about these trades are the comments about what the Phillies and the Red Sox DIDN'T have to give up. We've had our hearts torn out by Cleveland teams, and it's hard to imagine how fans find the energy to support another rebuilding process. Maybe the Indians just need to get rid of Sizemore and sign up to play AAA ball. Then there'd be no disguising the fact that they are just a minor league supplier to teams that really want to win.
I'd wager my father's casket that not one person complaining on this blog has purchased season tickets during Dolan's ownership, and I'd additionally wager the urns holding my dogs' and cats' ashes that the whiners and screamers' attendance at single games during Dolan's ownership has been more scarce than the number of short hairs growing on the kids who slept in Michael Jackson's bed.
But hey, it's all ownership's fault.
I for the life of me cannot understand this trade. If Larry Dolan couldn't afford to buy this team, why in the hell did they even bother? So it was done because of economics?? We know what we gave up, a great hitter. We have no clue what we are getting. We seem to develop these players, then we get rid of them. We have to be the laughing stock of major league baseball. Dick Jacobs has to be laughing his ass off in heaven!!!! This sucks!!!! I guess Grady will be next. Do us all a favor: RETIRE!!!!!! sell the team. I just don't care anymore.
Alan, stop blaming the fans for all of this.
You repeatedly claim that Cleveland is a terrible baseball market, yet are second only to the Red Sox in consecutive sellouts from "Glory Days" of the 90s (in which we never won a World Series).
Cleveland loves baseball, but this area does not have the disposable income to spend money on season tickets, especially in this shitty economy. The Indians may have competed in 05 and 07, but they sucked in 06 and 08. How can you blame fans for being skeptical of the Indians? They were right to be skeptical!
Indians fans will pay to see a great team. This is not a great team, and 2007 was a total fluke.
Get these facts into your heads: when the Indians had a good number of star players and won a lot more games like in the 90s, the fans showed up in droves – like 3 straight years of sell outs. Granted you had to pay these big name players a lot more money than the Dolans would pay their stock brokers, but they were exciting and drew a lot of interest and support and attendance. With a packed stadium Dick Jacobs and John Hart made the Indians some money. But when an owner refuses to put out the big bucks for high proflie players and a dummy for a GM gives away our best players for crap that won't develop for 2 or 3 years – if they develop at all, you won't have any people at the ball park. When you trade away your big name players that fans have emotionally bonded to, you break everybody's heart and spirit. Who wants to follow this crappy team ? Dolans – get out of town or go to a retirement home and take Shapiro and Wedge with you and that pitching and batting coach with you and don't ever make Skinner our manager – he's afraid of his shadow. Dolans – sell the team to a local guy who will bring back the 90s. Does Dan Gilbert have enough money to rebuild the Indians after the Cavs win Cleveland a championship. Imagine that, the Cavs might win a championship before the Indians or Browns do !!!!!! I'm getting fed up with Cleveland baseball.
The reason Dolan bought the team is because he was royally conned by the fabulous charitable civic God, Mr. Dick Jacobs, and because Dolan's consultants and people whiffed like a cross-eyed Travis Hafner on future attendance projections which naturally follow a certain number of years after a new stadium located in a smaller urban area has opened. That's why.
Oh, and Dick Jacobs is in heaven, LisaG? Uhh … I don't think those third-degree burns were received in heaven.
Mark Frate? 40 years ago, we had a landscaper named Mark Frate. Or maybe it was his father. Is that the same Mark Frate?
An aberration of a perfect storm does not equate to a good baseball market. It's a rotten baseball market. Always has been. Even going back to the excellent teams of 1954 through 1956. The 1954 team set a major league record for wins, and attendance actually shrunk the following season and the season after that. That's Cleveland for you.
Oh, alan, I do buy tickets and have been to lots and lots of games. I have been an Indian's fan for fifty years. If it's such a rotten baseball market, then just get rid of baseball in Cleveland! I don't think many people would care after this summer. And, are you a relative of Shapiro or Dolan, or maybe you are one of them defending these stupid trades. It's so easy to be anonymous on the Internet. I have gone to the Indians games when they were bad and when they were good, but no more! The only ones who benifit from these trades are the lucky players who get to leave. Go Cliff, Go Victor. Good luck playing for real baseball teams!
benefit
Cheapskate owner with a lacky GM. That's what the Indians have turned into. Tribe fans deserve better. I'm so mad I could spit at both in the eye.
If I was still in NE Ohio, I'd drive to Jacobs Field (I'm not calling it Progressive Field), walk to the team offices and drop every piece of Indian paraphenelia I own at the doors. They can have it.
I'm done rooting for this team until Dolan is out. You're a joke and how can you not be embarrassed by how you've ruined this team in less than two years?
Boy do I get tired of people referencing the mid-90s sellouts as evidence of local fandom. Abberation, since Cavs sucked and Browns were gone, plus new stadium & curiosity, along with a basher-masher team. It was all good.
It could've been that way from 2005 forward, but the bandwagon fans preferred to stay away, pout, complain; same thing in 2007. Any other city would've been going NUTS for a playoff team like that. But not here. Cleveland could have a $150-mil payroll, and it wouldn't matter to these apathetic "fans," or "non-fans" as I call them. You don't deserve a major league team, and just keep it up….you won't have one to complain about.
Nobody local is lining up to buy this team. Jacobs himself would've moved the team, if need be. Don't think for a minute it can't happen now.
Alan is hard to take. He hates everything, and that is sad. He's a net detriment to Patrick's readership, I am sure. But this is about the Dolans, and it is also about the fans in Cleveland — both have been crushed by the economy. "Cheapskate Owner" may have been arguably valid a few years ago — arguably. But we are in a horrific recession right now, and while cheapness might have been questioned a few years ago, now, it's about survival of a franchise. There's a real question as to whether even a winner would bring fans to this ballpark — this is not the same regional economy as it was in 1995. They know their financial situation, and I assume they are responding to what they know. Victor was my favorite player in the Jacobs/Progressive Field era. Wonderful guy, great player, rose to the occasion as a hitter. It is very sad to see him go. But these recent moves say a lot about the franchise's immediate future, and Cleveland's, as well. You just can't assume anymore that a region like this can support a major league baseball team. You can only hope. But this is no longer about whether the Dolans are cheap, or Shapiro incompetent (firing Wedge would be nice, though). It's about whether this region can pull out of a long downward spiral in time to save its "major league" status.
Alan hates everything. Hilarious. Every person on here is spewing forth hate towards the Dolans and/or Shapiro and/or Wedge. And I point out the simple fact that nobody will take the responsibility for looking in their very own bathroom mirrow. Yet, Alan hates everything. You're an unintentional riot.
Did I say mirrow or minnow? I meant mirror.
I don't know why all the mid and small market owners don't just gang up on the Richie Rich owners and force some kind of salary cap program similar to football and baseball! Until that happens the only teams that will succeed year after year will be the wealthy high payroll teams. Every once in a while you'll get an aberation where a smaller market team might have some success like the Twins or Oakland or even the Tribe at one time. No longer! I just hope the Tribe fans completely boycott any and all that is the Cleveland Indians and force Dolan to sell to somebody that will spend the cash to field a winning team. Until then for me the Tribe doesn't exist. I used to be a Dodger Fan back when Koufax and Drysdale played, I guess I'll have to bleed Doodger blue again!
Who's defending stupid trades, Marie? I'm certainly not. And if you're one person who goes to games, then you're pretty much the only one around here who can say that. Same with every other goof who is screaming on the Internet or screaming on sports radio. And THAT has been the problem. A whole lot of screaming but not a whole lot of spending. Nobody has the right to scream about the problem if they're actually part of the problem.
You're bleeding Doodger blue? Sounds like a country song about a dying dog named Doodger.
How would you feel if the current owners can't find a local buyer (which is VERY likely the case), and get overtures from out-of-town buyers? There are plenty of baseball-starved cities that would LOVE to have a MLB franchise right now. Nashville, Carolina, Oklahoma City…just to name 3 areas.
Cleveland, are you prepared to lose your baseball franchise forever? (Because once it goes, it ain't coming back.)
If you're not, then I suggest you enter a team/fan partnership, with everyone working toward the same goal of a winner. It's YOUR team, whether they win or lose. So either take "ownership" in your fandom, or keep complaining and drive pro baseball out of Cleveland permanently.
Your choice.
C'mon Patsy, you work in Akron, wake up and get real. This is a small market team. Like Pitt, Cin, KC, Fla, etc. Somebody should give props to Shapiro for following the Marlins model and filling the minors with prospects. They've won 2, while we've won how many? Gund was a cheapscate too. A couple of million would have had Clemens or Pedro, what we got were late 30 year old Hersheisers and Martinez. We're never gonna get more than one or two shots a decade. Too many clowns here who've called the sports talk shows and think they have something legitimate to say.
Technically the Indians' lease doesn't expire until 2023, but if there's anything guys like Modell and that Oklahoma City chump always prove, leases can be broken if it comes with a nice lump cash payment. So yeah, if Dolan sells, I agree, I think people can kiss the franchise goodbye. Same thing when Gilbert sells if James decides to take the first RTA bus outta town.
Sean and Alan are correct. A new owner probably means this team is gone for good. Fans think that local multimillionaires grow on trees and want this headache? Name one, please. But there are plenty of "Baltimores" ready to steal a franchise that people believe they're "entitled" to and would "never leave."
So protesters, maybe you ought to shut your pieholes and buy a couple tickets when your team wins instead. Or you'll be looking at an empty stadium. Mark my words. There is only so much negativism that a local owner will take. And then the product goes bye-bye.
you trade an all star catcher and a cy young winner and do not get 1
proven player back. that about says all you need to know about the
state of indian baseball.
Here is the most intelligent comment posted on the national message-boards regarding the trade:
"Shapiro gave Hafner a massive deal. He gave FREAKING Jake Westbrook $11 million per year until 2011. And he gave Kerry Wood $10 million a year until 2011.
That is why they had to tear the rest of the team apart."
'Nuff said. Big contracts kill franchises.
yeah, blame the fans for these trades. i'm not a g.m. but even i have the sense to hold out a couple days to see if philly would have sweetened the deal for lee so boston wouldn't have known that victor could be had for a bag of peanuts. salary dump or not—that's just bad poker.
the fans didn't hire shapiro and wedge. yet alan and jason are blaming the fans for all this crap. total b.s. give the team a competent g.m. and a competent manage then you can blame the fans. but that's not the case. put joe torre and brian cashman with george steinbrenner's wad on the tribe….if the fans don't show…then blame them. a pile of trash tossed on the pitchers mound deserves more fans than an eric wedge managed baseball team.
terje, you don't address why the fans did not respond to the 2005 pennant race, or the 2007 playoff team. It seems the product has indeed been there. But all we hear are endless excuses from fans as to why they won't buy tickets. And we're talking during and after an ALCS season. That's on the fans, not on the GM, manager or owner.
why didn't they respond? 2005 was a fluke followed by a choke. what was so compelling about that season? also, outside of the pitching every eric wedge managed team plays bad baseball. the hitters under his leadership have yet to see a called third strike they didn't like. the baserunning has always been atrocious and the guys in the field outside of grady sizemore were mediocre (blake, the revolving door at second) to bad (peralta, the revolving corner outfielders). they never built a TEAM! just a couple guys and some spare parts.
2007 had a lot of promise but even a casual fan of baseball wondered why lofton was the only acquisition to add to a potentially winning team. what does that tell you about the so-called prospects if all the team can land is a 40 year who's last game was game 7 of the alcs???
the browns are the only team who can drop at deuce on the 50 yard line and get a standing ovation. the dolan/shapiro/wedge teams never did anything to build a team and chose to ride the great pitching they lucked into. remember, c.c. was john hart's pick not a pick from the ginger who managed to squeeze a career out of one trade.
thumbs down cleveland fans, i have not heard 1 fan say they will be happy for lee to win worldseries and hope the phillies win it all, WHAT UP WITH THAT????????????????
There is nothing more to say except go Phillies! Cliff Lee deserves to be with a good team. Get rid of the Indians management and the coaches.