Indians GM Mark Shapiro addressed the media this evening, and there were a few buzzwords in his discussion of the Cliff Lee trade.
First, though, let me state there are very few people in sports who can verbalize a team's plan and vision the way Shapiro can. He is a man with a message, and he gets the message across.
The buzzwords? Championship, short period of time, and extended period of time. As in Shapiro steadfastly maintained that though trading Lee was a tough decision, the moves the Indians have made in the last year since the CC Sabathia trade have put the team in a position to "contend in very short order for an extended period of time."
Shapiro said the only role ownership played was to ask a critical question: How confident are you that this team can contend next season? Because it was clear financially that the team with Cliff Lee would not have been able to add any players to make it better. The Indians would have gone to 2010 with the same team.
Shapiro said the judgment was made to be active now in trying to improve rather than rolling the dice that next season would be better with the same team.
This was not a happy-happy, joy-joy news conference either. There were some pointed questions from some folks who sounded as angry as the fans have sounded since the trade was announced.
Some highlights:
"We didn't have an imperative or directive from ownership to shed payroll, or to make trades either. We had to critically and objectively look at the team that's in place and say, 'Do we feel good about the team's ability to contend next year?'"
"If you don't make tough decisions like this you don't have Cliff Lees here in the first place."
"Our situation now is so much better than when we had to go through this in 2001 and 2002. have a core of talent that is at the major league level that is going to be under control for multiple years, like Grady and Shin-Soo Choo and Cabrera and Valbuena and Huff. At AAA in Brantley and LaPorta and Rondon. At AA … When you start to look at that talent and supplement it with players like we traded for today, I think that the makings of a championship team is there, And one that can be here very quickly, or is already here. And one that has the ability to have an extended run, rather than a one-year run and then go through some major challenges."
On the fans frustrations to trading Cy Young winners two years in a row:
"I've been here 18 years. I think I understand. It's frustrating for me too, but ultimately there are realities in different markets in the way you build teams. We're trying to build a championship team. That means there are going to be mini-cycles. I think what we've done hopefully is avoid any kind of long retrenching or long rebuilding …"
On the decision:
"What I want to do is for us to be right in the end, for people to look back two, three years from now and say, 'Thank goodness they made that deal." … What you're going to be doing at any single moment in time is not going to be applauded and not necessarily going to be understood. You want to be right in the end, not right along the way."
On the expectations for 2010:
"Everything has to go right and it has to be kind of a Florida Marlins type of model, but I believe we'll have a young exciting team that has a chance to contend. We'll at least be competitive. What I believe most importantly, with the moves we made we're in a position now for an extended period of time to have a contending team. In a short period of time."
As the sports talk hosts are saying: "He's delusional."
Hey, I'm ALL for scaling our payroll back to the $40-mil range, because it escalates so quickly when established players gain bigger contracts. The Marlins have, indeed, won the W. Series twice with that thinking.
But there has to be some talent in that roster. And what we got back in this trade appears to be a joke. To look at our roster and declare that we're close to championship caliber is…well, delusional.
It's the sports talk hosts who are delusional, they believe the listeners are in love with the sound of the sports talk hosts' voices and much as the sports talk hosts are in love with the sound of their own voices. I listened to one Michael Reghi podcast, I swear I heard a suspicious stroking sound in the not too distant background.
It's clear Shapiro has been given a guarantee of a long-term commitment by the Dolans. Otherwise, he wouldn't have made this deal. I'm guessing Shapiro was pressured beyond belief to make the deal now, and not wait until the deadline in the event Philadelphia and Boston and whoever looked elsewhere and found a deal in the interim.
The trade stinks, but I guess when Indians fans are as lousy as they are, it just doesn't matter anymore. Win or lose, a ridiculous 20% reduction in attendance in one year isn't something the Dolans' financial projections counted on. They're businessmen, the same way Jacobs was a businessman. If Jacobs was the owner, he would have done the exact same thing, whether people are too naive to believe it or not.
This trade stinks. To trade Lee, a guy we had under contract for the next year and a half for nobody who's major league ready or a top prospect is pathetic. I agree with Alan, it smells like a salary dump plain and simple. I don't understand moving Lee now and not doing it this winter or at the next deadline if that's not the case. Barring some catastrophic injury the same deal would have been there at the time.
Obviously Drabek wasn't going to be on the table since that's what held up a Halladay deal, but to not get Taylor, Brown, or Happ is unacceptable. This makes the Cavs front office look like geniuses.
I think that the best part of these trades are the fans who pretend they knew what a happ was last saturday and thought drabek was the guy who pitched for the pirates in 89 – now those fans are aghast that we didn't get those players in a trade using the solid logic of "toronto wanted them so they must be good!!!!"
yeaaaah…. let's let our emotions hinge on the front office goals of the blue jays. nice. because, you know, the blue jays have rocked the socks off the al east since the strike.
Who knows if it was a good trade? They wouldn't give up carrasco for sabathia last year, so we shipped ol crookedhat to milwaukee. i don't know if it was a good trade or not, i haven't the foggiest about these players. i guess we'll find out soon.
but for the love of god, don't get peeved because we didn't value the same players as toronto. i mean, we may be the organization that developed john macdonald – but they're the ones who deemed macdonald to be a starter.
Also: The scorn of Brinda and Reghi only makes me think higher of whatever they're scorning. When they show scorn for Mike Vick, I'm positive the guy's got his life on the right track.
shapiro is a straight up liar and i hope he chokes on vomit in his sleep.
salary dump on orders from the boss. nothing else explains the odd timing of the trade.
By the way, and I don't mean to be mean-spirited, or anything, but this is very clearly the sorry face of a poor schmuck who is deeply depressed that he unknowingly had married a tranny. I certainly have sympathy for the guy. Much like the trade, all he's been left with is concocting some plausible explanation and selling it to the public. http://xr.com/ydd
the dolans are not to blame here. they believe in shapiros ability to bring in young talent and they made a commited to him for the future. Shapiro concluded the team could not compete in 2010 so he traded lee. there is no sense in paying a man 9 million when all he can do is up your win total from 68 games to 73. attendence will be low weather cliff lee is around or not. after next year lee is gone anyway.
the real issue with the tribe is eric wedge. he has stunted the growth of far too many players by platooning every position but centerfield. players need to play. why bring matt laporta up from columbus if all hes gona do is sit? look ho well brandon phillips and franklin gutierrez are doing now that they play regularly. why play a second baseman (derosa) at third? why try out lumbering ryan garko in left field? you cant please everyone with at-bats, you need to pick your best line-up and stick with it.
the dolans have made a commitment to shapiro, i can only hope that shapiro did not do the same for his beloved partner eric wedge.
@cnpeters,
I'm not valuing the same players that the Blue Jays are, I'm valuing the same players that top minor league talent evaluators at places like Baseball America and ESPN Scouts Inc value.
See Keith Law or Jim Callis. Try reading something instead of making unfounded claims that fans like me who are upset with the deal think Kyle Drabek is his dad Doug… that was hilarious though, so funny joke.
I agree with Alan on one point above: It doesn't matter if the Tribe is winning or losing, 1/5 of the fans (or more) are not buying tickets. I venture to say, even if the Tribe had gone to the W.S. in 2007, there wouldn't have been much of a spike. The bloom is off the rose, or people are using the economy or other entertainment choices as their excuse for non-support.
But I don't blame the Dolan family one iota for cutting payroll. EVERY ONE of us would do the exact same thing in their position. No business can just hemmorage money year after year. The cash runs out at some point. There has to be financial accountability, a balancing of the books. And if the team is only going to average 18,000 people per game, then the budget will reflect that. What's so hard to understand?
The owners have already TRIED the opposite approach, racking up HUGE payrolls and hoping the fans would follow. Didn't happen. So now the "so-called" fans will get what they deserve: a low-budget approach. Yes, the Marlins and Devil Rays and Diamondbacks have done it, and in this cash-strapped city, we'll have to do it that way, as well.
The fans brought it on themselves. Don't even try to think otherwise.
Shapiro has proven that he cannot take a small market team to a championship,ala The Florida Marlins and Minnesota Twins. His two biggest problems are his field manager,who platoons everyone but the batboy ,cannot handle anyone with talent and personality/spirit(Brandon Phillips),and cannot get his team ready in the 6 weeks of spring training ; and whomever he has hired to make the amateur draft picks(maybe we wouldn't have to raid other teams minor league systems if we could actually draft star quality players– (Jeremy Sowers ???). We are now trading for young power arms,because none have been drafted.
If I were Paul Dolan,I would try to hire a GM who has had success with small market teams. Someone who can spend wisely(Travis Hafner for 13m a year???) and draft correctly.
Fire Shapiro and Wedge—NOW.
"If you don't make tough decisions like this you don't have Cliff Lees here in the first place"
And what good did having him here do for us Mark ? Lee's salary was a bargain for next year. Instead lets talk about the real reason you can't afford anyone else. How about talking about the $ 33 million you tied up in 3 mediocre players ,Hafner ,Westbrook and Wood?
I am sick and tired of everyone saying we are a small market team. Cleveland has 3 pro teams. Pittsburg 2,Milwaukee 1 , St. Louis 2,and so on.The facts are Dolan cannot afford a team,many teams lose money during operation but you make a killing when you sell, if you haven't f***up the team and destroyed them while you owned them that is .
Its a vicious cycle: the season starts with a mish-mashed starting rotation, hanging on a lot of ifs, and a group of players who have no specific role, just a uniform and per diem. (and I didn't even say 'bullpen')
The offense scuffles… AGAIN… and hinges on the hopes of a DH to return to form after two years on and off the DL? The 'versatility' mantra begins to hurt things: players only face certain handed pitchers, players move out of position to accomodate others, etc. and there is no chance to build up any kind of consistency. And no changes are still made to improve the offensive coaching. (hint: why keep a hitting coach around who can't help the players adjust or fix what's wrong?)
Attendance drops… injuries begin to mount… and the dump begins.
You CAN blame Wedge for not having a clear plan for the team on the field and not being willing to make changes or definitive decisions. A stubborn control-freak will never change
You CAN blame Shapiro for not having the personnel in place at all levels throughout this organization. Players are sent down to do what – collect dust? There seems to be no intention to develop these players – just pick who's hot and rush them through the organization. His free agent signings are just as desperate as these annual trade deadline deals.
And you most definitely CAN blame the Dolans: you can't buy a business and NOT put any money into it or not adjust to the changing economic climate. Sitting tight and throwing bobbleheads at the fans isn't a business plan. They are clearly in over their heads and have been for some time.
The sad thing is that right next store to Progressive Field is a team who has made adjustments to address the economy (bringing in more ownership money, spinning off accompanying businesses to help support the bottom line, etc.), has brought in a coaching and general management staff with championship experience, and has put money into the organization. They involve their fans, they don't talk down to them like they "just don't understand", and that in turn develops goodwill. I'm sure none of that has helped in being a competitive team.
Dolan has already reached Modell-status in my book. This will never get turned around for more than one fluke season when all the stars align until Dolan sells the team, the GM addresses the lack of qualified coaches and managers throughout the organization, and the manager gets over himself and changes his current approach, which isn't working.
the dolan's big acquisition at the 2007 trade deadline was kenny freakin' lofton.
when the owners don't try to win there is no way the fans can be blamed. not to mention the taxpayer funded ball field. blaming the fans is a cop out of the lowest order.
I don't want them to be competitive; I want them to contend! I'm sick of settling for, "Well, we gave them a heck of a fight. Even though in the end we lost."
jim ingraham-the only indians beat writer that isn't a shill- calls it like it is as always…
http://www.news-herald.com/articles/2009/07/30/sports/nh1240148.txt
terje – I agree with your assessment of ingraham.
I was happy that Shapiro's go-to guys weren't in attendance last night. He had to face the music more than usual.
Right now Dick Jacobs has got to be the happiest soul on the planet. The guy puts far less cash into the team than Dolan, then holds a gun at Cleveland's politicians and forces a new stadium, gets his stadium, parlays the boatloads of added revenue into a competing team designed for a finite length of time until he can sell the damn thing, and then sells it for a boatload of profit to a guy with a finite checkbook who inexplicably lost his mind and paid a huge premium for a franchise that had already topped out in potential profitability. So now Dolan is perceived as the devil and Jacobs is perceived as the saint, and the clownish Northeast Ohio sports media perpetuates the baldfaced lie.
Dick Jacobs. The luckiest living dead guy on Earth.
Of course the trade stinks. All posters have got that right. I love baseball, but its seems like its been trying to break-up with me for the past 10 years or so. So many inequities given market sizes and revenue disparities. The tribe's problems go well beyond Dolan, Shapiro, and Wedge (not defending them though). This trade demonstrates fundamental problems in the MLB business model, and i just can't understand how fan support can be maintained in small & mid markets.
Here is the most delusional piece of Shapiro's comments — by the time prospects like Rondon, Chisenhall, Knapp, etc are ready to meaningfully contribute, the Tribe won't be able to afford today's core players — Sizemore, Cabrera, etc. Its not a mini-cycle, its a crappy cycle.
"I love baseball, but its seems like its been trying to break-up with me for the past 10 years or so. "
mel, it feels that way to me too. as a matter of fact i think baseball broke up with me in 1998 but i still kept the picture in my wallet. eleven years and a few roster abortions later i think it's time for me to move on.
"…the moves the Indians have made in the last year since the CC Sabathia trade have put the team in a position to 'contend in very short order for an extended period of time.'"
Here's the thing: Shapiro talked about his early trades, including the Colon trade that brought Lee to Cleveland to begin with, as if they had set the Indians up as contenders for an extended period of time. But in fact, they had just one playoff berth and one other season of contention in that time. If he thinks that the average fan regards 2004-08 as something to aspire to, he's more deluded than I thought.
Shapiro isn't delusional, he knows exactly what he is doing. I wouldn't want to be in his shoes, he's been forced to sell the Brooklyn Bridge to folks who have no faith in what he's been forced to sell.
By the way, can we keep the "market" crap argument out of this? When did St. Louis, for example, morph into China, Jr.? There is a difference between market size and simply being a crap baseball market.
Could Shapiro be Phil Seghi's long lost son?
And alan t. emerges again, Shapiro's PR manager himself. Where were you yesterday, Alan? Listening to radio shows so you can kill the messenger, rather than the front office that made this deal?
I've called you out for a long period of time on being a relative of Shapiro's. You can start admitting it and stop defending this idiot, and the Dolans. They've destroyed a once-great organization, and the fans will hopefully finally show them that.
And don't try and blame this on the fans. If Cleveland fans have proven anything, it's that they'll always support a team that is trying to win. The Gladiators spent one season here and had 18,000-20,000 people at games because they won. The Browns have continuously sold out games while playing sub-.500 football because they were making acquisitions to at least try and improve their team. The Cavs went from a horrid organization to one with a great owner, who will actually invest in the team. The result: the highest season ticket holder retention rate in the NBA, and a likely sold-out season in the midst of one of the worst areas in one of the worst economies we've ever seen.
The Indians have not done the same. They've cut salary at all costs, and they wonder why they went from selling out 455 games to struggling to put 15,000 people in the stadium. This is NOT the fans' faults. This is Dolan's fault. If the Indians were playing .550+ baseball right now, they'd average 35,000+ per game. I hope they average less than 3,500 after what they've pulled…again…
Yes, "Realism." I am Shapiro's relative. We Jews always stick together, both figuratively and literally. Like you and the pages of your porno magazine.
And by the way, what a stupid comment. If the Indians were playing .550 ball they'd be averaging 35,000 a game? I know you're sticking to those pages of Hustler and Swank, but are you also sniffing Elmer's Glue? In 2005 they went 93-69, which I believe is better than .550. The average attendance? 24,861. In 2007 they went 96-66, which I believe is better than .550. The average attendance? A whopping 28,448.
Seriously, pal, you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about. The Cavs' "great owner" can "spend" when LeBron James is bringing in revenue. If James leaves, Gilbert will make Ted Stepien look like Jerry Buss. Jacobs held the city at gunpoint and said, "I'll move unless you give me a shiny new stadium." He milked it for all that it was worth, then sold out to the highest bidder. Whatta guy.
And the Browns have "continuously sold out games while playing sub-.500 football?" Seriously, man, brain damage is a very bad thing, not a very good thing. The original real Browns drew flies when they sucked.
It's a bandwagon sports town, and even when times are good, the Indians don't draw.
Put away the porn, put away the drugs, and slowly detox. Zevon wrote a song called "Detox Mansion." Play it.
So basically Dick Jacobs and Dan Gilbert are bad businessmen in the opinion of Alan t., did I get that right?
As the wise David Justice said, upon his trade to the Yankees, "it's a business". Cliff just about said the same thing yesterday.
Really? That's all you have, alan t? Porn and drugs is your argument? I guess I'm dealing with someone even dumber than I expected.
Many Indians fans had already given up on the Dolan regime in 2005. They saw the guy walk in and turn one of the highest payrolls in baseball to $33 mill a year. They watched him get rid of every former Indians hero from the Tribe's glory days. They listened to the spin as Dolan gave the boot to Gonzalez, Thome, Colon, Alomar, Burba, Lofton, Vizquel, Colon, etc. Are you honestly going to tell me that this had nothing to do with the attendance? Why should the fans have gone to those games?
The Indians had one unexpected successful season in '05, and just when the fans got their hopes up, they returned to their old form in '06. Attendance did as well. Low and behold, in '07 they played well. They also got lucky. They were one of the only competing teams to suffer few major injuries that season, and would likely never have beaten a healthy Yankees team in the playoffs. That being said, they only added one player to their roster at the trade deadline…Kenny Lofton. Anyone with any baseball sense knew they needed more, and would never compete with Boston if they did not get more.
The cycle repeated itself in 2008. Many people that don't know baseball expected the Indians to succeed admirably, ignoring the stroke of luck they saw in '07. The luck ran out, and Dolan returned to his old form, getting rid of three major contributors just 90-100 games after making a run at the ALCS.
And, since you seem to think you're right on this, and the rest of us are just involved in "porn, drugs and glue-sniffing" (seriously? Am I debating a handicapped high school freshman?), let's be completely honest about 2005. The Indians were 60 games in before they consistently started to play .500 baseball. Their 7-game home stretch right before that point saw 20,461/game. After breaking the .500 barrier, their next home stretch lasted 12 games, and the Indians averaged 27,041/game. That's a pretty sizable jump for two weeks. Maybe it has something to do with winning? I don't know…
The Indians' '05 home attendance continued to increase as they remained competitive. The problem was they had terrible attendance in the beginning of the season because the fans were fed up with what Dolan had already done. The last home series of the season had over 41,000/game.
Before they got to .500, the Indians were lucky to get 20,000 people to a game. In fact, they only had 5 games out of 25 through April and May where at least 20k showed up. From August on, they had over 20k for every home game (30 total). They actually had 12 games where over 30k people were in attendance during that time.
These numbers are consistent with all other attendance numbers through the last two decades.
94: 35,313
95: 39,483
96: 41,220
97: 42,295
98: 42,806
99: 42,820
00: 42,670
01: 39,782
02: 32,308
-Enter Larry Dolan's cuts
03: 21,358
04: 22,400
05: 24,664
06: 24,667
07: 28,448
08: 27,122
From 1994-2002 the Indians significantly surpassed the MLB's average team attendance each season (6 times by more than 1 million attendees). The Indians have failed to do so in a single season since.
Put another owner with this club who shows he will actually invest in the team and, when things don't go as expected, he'll add MORE personnel rather than cutting payroll and tucking his tail between his legs…and you show me the attendance results.
But what do I know? I'm just involved in porn, drugs and glue…
Enter Larry Dolan's cuts? Seriously, man, Detox Mansion. Use it. Enter an aging stadium. That's what entered. The novelty was over. Your dopey argument fails in every way, shape and form to explain 2005 and 2007.
No, Elizabeth, that's not what I'm saying. Jacobs and Gilbert are good businessmen in the guise of good citizens. Dolan, on the other hand, is a businessman who paid far too much on a bad investment. Jacobs would be doing the exact same thing if he hung onto the franchise, and look out below if James leaves. Gordon Gund's salary dumps will have nothing on what follows.
hey alan, the jacobs and dolans are all business men but the jacobs knew about customer satisfaction and spent money to make it. i am hoping that this move produces a fatter farm system that is more tempting to new buyers so we can be rid of this incompetent ownership.
Well, I will claim slight ignorance as to the fact I really didn't pay that much attention to what Jacobs was doing – I was in college and paying more attention to college ball at the time.
I guess I'd just like to know how the Dolans had the cash to buy the franchise in the first place and if they actually thought that the initial $600 M was all that they'd ever have to invest. Did they believe gate receipts would be all it took?
I'll give them the benefit that they probably did over pay – but there are so many things on the surface that just irk me about whatever their business plan is. I certainly hope that the marketing budget gets a fine-toothed comb overview this year. Free crap isn't going to work anymore, and I'm wondering how much of a hit they took for the new facilities in Goodyear – if any?
I just saw an article today that Cablevision is spinning off MSG into a subsidiary and that James Dolan will run MSG only. I'm not sure our Dolans can spin STO off into anything…
Jacobs knew about customer satisfaction?? Ron, precisely how did Jacobs "satisfy a customer" from 1986 through 1993? When there is a brand-new shiny stadium that didn't cost you a penny after successfully extorting those very same "customers," and there is a pile of good power hitters to immediately support that good stadium, a customer would have to be pretty damn demanding not to be "satisfied."
alan, 1986 was the wonderful year the indians played .500 ball! and the s.i. cover the next year! woo hoo! people were thrilled in those days over that crap. then in 1991 the great rebuilding project began. and "the gateway project"!
although those years sucked there was plenty of false hope and bogus enthusiasm. dick jacobs promised an afterlife of virgins and rainbows. all you had to do was blow up your wallet. for a sports complex? sure, take it all!
In Jacobs' defense, he did come through on that virgin promise for me. And for that, I really do thank Dick. So to speak. 1987 and 1988 were very good years. Dick got me a few virgins, but I got no rainbows. Still, I was a "satisfied customer."
So alan, you're saying that Jacobs Field was not aging in 1999, 2000 or 2001, but it was in 2002? Give me a break. That was also the period of time that the Indians went from a $90 million payroll to a $30 million payroll. People go to watch a winner, not a ballpark. Have you been to the new Yankee Stadium? How about the old one? It was the biggest piece of trash I'd stepped in, yet they still packed 50k+ people/night. Why? Because they had a successful team and made personnel changes when necessary. PNC Park is one of the nicest stadiums I've been to, but they still struggle selling tickets when the Pirates are sucking. Since you seem so involved in conversations about drugs, which one is it that makes you think people pay for tickets to see stadiums instead of ball teams? Did the Yes Network blow up because Yankee Stadium was a really nice place that's on tv 162 nights a year? Good Lord are you psychotic!
"The novelty was over." Yeah, so was the playoff contender, you idiot!
Seriously, that has to be one of the most ignorant comments I've ever seen on an Ohio.com forum full of them…
And regarding your baseball Gilbert debate, Alan, if LeBron were to leave, Dan Gilbert would use his resources to sign someone of similar caliber. He'd go after Wade, Bosh, etc. This is how he runs his business and his sports team.
Name one big player the Indians have acquired under free agency or a trade under Dolan. Kerry Wood? Come on. Dolan has never once acquired a big-name player through a trade or free agency. In Shaq, Gilbert acquired more big names than Dolan has gotten the Indians in eight combined years.
You're a twit. Actually, you're more than a twit, but as Pat often says, this is a family forum. Indeed, the Indians' record under Dolan is superior to the Indians' record under Jacobs. But let's just sweep 1986 through 1993 under the rug. Let's just sweep a brand-new stadium under the rug. Let's just sweep the fact that Jacobs didn't have to be the bad guy when it came time for all of the leftover fossils from the post-brand-new stadium 90s teams that it was time to hit the road.
Gilbert would use his resources to sign someone of similar caliber? Oh, yes. Nothing is more attractive to a rich 20-something guy with a different babe every night than Cleveland from October through March. Or perhaps you haven't noticed that James and O'Neal couldn't even catch a good disease, let alone a good player.
And wait a minute. The Cavaliers should now be praised for acquiring names? Hell, give Bill Fitch my phone number for sex, he acquired Walt Frazier. And never mind O'Neal wasn't a free agent. If he was a free agent, he wouldn't be anywhere near where there isn't an ocean and/or a Mexican sneaking underneath a fence.
Oh, and name some big-name, big-money free agents Jacobs acquired. Remember, he bought the franchise in 1986. Come on, I dare you.
Well, I could start with David Justice, walk away, and still have beaten Dolan…
And before you start touting "we traded for him you twit, on drugs and glue and porn!" in your typical, mindless rants, re-read what I wrote: "Name one big player the Indians have acquired under free agency or a trade under Dolan."
Alan, I started this conversation by calling you out for being a relative of Shapiro's. I may have been mistaken. You may be a relative of Gilbert's. You have offered no sense whatsoever, and you debate like a puny, old, pathetic, lonely man. I'd love to have this discussion with you in person. But I have a strong feeling you'd back down a lot more quickly…
David Justice? You've gotta be kidding me. Was this before or after the brand-spanking new stadium's 10-Cent Steroid Day, or after? I don't recall, although I do recall seeing Justice waiting in the line next to me.
Also, you are very conveniently ignoring the fact that the Indians' attendance dropped an astounding close to 25% BEFORE Dolan's cuts.
But why point to facts when you have Realism.
No, wait a minute, it was 10-Cent Steroid Night. I remember the lights being on. The afternoon promotion was 5-Cent Syringe Day.
Hey, wait a minute … it just occurred to me, you may be truly even more of a man without a clue than I originally thought. Wasn't that the controversial Lofton trade to Atlanta, when they acquired Justice? If memory serves, and please correct me if I'm wrong, but Justice was as much acquired as a free agent as Osama bin Laden is the new owner of Corky & Lenny's. Somebody help me out here, am I wrong?
And you're very conveniently ignoring the fact that for a year I've been calling you exactly what you are: a relative or defense man for Dolan/Shapiro. You discuss no sports on Ohio.com's forums unless if it means defending the Dolan era. Why don't you explain to us all why that is the case?
Can you do your own research or should I hand it all to you? I listed "Enter Dolan's cuts" to show the the line between full seasons when Dolan cut practically everyone from the former Indians team. By the end of 2002 both Alomars were gone (he wouldn't resign Sandy, and traded Robbie for a couple candy bars and a pack of Twizzlers), Cordova, Lofton and Gonzales were gone, Dolan wouldn't resign Burba, and Nagy and Wright were not contributing. The team began the season looking similar to Jacobs' Indians, and finished the season a completely different ball club. And you ask why the attendance dropped by 25 percent?
Regarding players Jacobs acquired through free agency and trades, how about Juan Gonzales? Roberto Alomar? Omar Vizquel? Orel Hershiser? Kenny Lofton? Dave Burba? Julio Franco? Matt Williams? Dennis Martinez? Jose Vizcaino? Travis Fryman? Dave Winfield? Eddie Murray? Marty Cordova? Name one person Dolan acquired who was on the caliber of any of those players at the time he came to Cleveland. One.
Heck, even the guys who never really produced for us were higher caliber than Dolan's pick-ups. Cecil Fielder. Dwight Gooden. Jack McDowell. Marquis Grissom. Kevin Seitzer. Harold Baines. Chuck Finley…
Justice batted .329 with 101 RBIs and 33 HRs for us in '97…or maybe you forgot. He also was an All-Star and finished 5th in MVP voting. How many players came in the first year Dolan acquired them and finished top 500 in MVP voting, Alan? Oh wait. Kerry Wood…
[enter terrible joke about drugs, porn, etc.]
Alan, in case you can't read, please see:
# Realism Says:
July 30th, 2009 at 3:47 pm
And before you start touting "we traded for him you twit, on drugs and glue and porn!" in your typical, mindless rants, re-read what I wrote: "Name one big player the Indians have acquired under free agency or a trade under Dolan."
Yes, let's talk about how the Knicks wouldn't sign the 80-year-old Pat Ewing, too.
What a lame argument. Yes, that would have been absolutely brilliant, signing over-the-hill guys to huge contracts to watch them play musical chairs on the disabled list. Fabulous idea.
Pal, here's a newsflash: St. Louis' attendance has never dropped 25% in two years, in a brand-new stadium like the Indians had, or not. The Indians can't draw flies because it's a lousy baseball town, no matter who they put out there. It's certainly not because of Dolan. Evidently, in your apartment-sized mansion, you can afford to take the losses because people don't care enough about the team to pay for a ticket to see them. Dolan, on the other hand, can't. Which doesn't excuse pawning off big league players for minor league kids who don't yet shave, but it certainly annihilates your arguments which couldn't fill a quarter of a midget's inner-tube.
Oh, and I'm still waiting for you to "reremember" Jacobs' 1986-1993 Pre-shiny New Stadium At The Customers' Expense Or Else I'll Hijack The Team Outta Town Era. Odd how that hasn't happened here yet.
I guess there's a word "reremember." Clemens was actually technically correct, the word "misremember" is in the dictionary.
About St. Louis: Correct. And they haven't been sold to a cost-cutting owner like Dolan either. Thanks for clarifying my point.
In addition, you're calling the team with a record for consecutive sell-out games a "lousy baseball town." If that doesn't show your stupidity, nothing does.
If my arguments aren't worth anything, then explain to me why you can't defend them? You have yet to actually counter a single point I've made. Instead, you've simply tried to blow them off and cast stones.
I ask again:
1/ What relation do you have to Dolan or Shapiro?
2/ Name one player Dolan acquired of the caliber of those I named.
Upon doing those two things, come and talk to me. Until then, everyone on Ohio.com will truly understand you're the blow-hard waste of space that you have proven yourself to be. And they'll also question why you only seem to surface on these forums when it comes time to defend Dolan's legacy…