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	<title>Comments on: On Joey Crawford&#039;s call in Indianapolis, and Mike Brown&#039;s tirade</title>
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	<link>http://www.ohiomm.com/blogs/mcmanamon/2009/02/11/on-joey-crawfords-call-in-indianapolis-and-mike-browns-tirade/</link>
	<description>Musings on the world of sports</description>
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		<title>By: terje</title>
		<link>http://www.ohiomm.com/blogs/mcmanamon/2009/02/11/on-joey-crawfords-call-in-indianapolis-and-mike-browns-tirade/comment-page-1/#comment-1904</link>
		<dc:creator>terje</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 12 Feb 2009 18:28:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ohiomm.com/blogs/mcmanamon/?p=1177#comment-1904</guid>
		<description>from a rules standpoint every scramble for a loose ball has about 4 fouls on the play.  the only sport that benefits from a strict enforcement of the rules is baseball.  it kills football and basketball.  basketball referees are the worst in professional sports.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>from a rules standpoint every scramble for a loose ball has about 4 fouls on the play.  the only sport that benefits from a strict enforcement of the rules is baseball.  it kills football and basketball.  basketball referees are the worst in professional sports.</p>
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		<title>By: alan t.</title>
		<link>http://www.ohiomm.com/blogs/mcmanamon/2009/02/11/on-joey-crawfords-call-in-indianapolis-and-mike-browns-tirade/comment-page-1/#comment-1903</link>
		<dc:creator>alan t.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 12 Feb 2009 18:14:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ohiomm.com/blogs/mcmanamon/?p=1177#comment-1903</guid>
		<description>Thank you, DD.  A voice of reason.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thank you, DD.  A voice of reason.</p>
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		<title>By: DD</title>
		<link>http://www.ohiomm.com/blogs/mcmanamon/2009/02/11/on-joey-crawfords-call-in-indianapolis-and-mike-browns-tirade/comment-page-1/#comment-1902</link>
		<dc:creator>DD</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 12 Feb 2009 13:08:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ohiomm.com/blogs/mcmanamon/?p=1177#comment-1902</guid>
		<description>I finally got around to watching some replays of the two fouls.  Here&#039;s the opinion of a high school ref - I actually think LeBron&#039;s foul on Granger was more egregious than the first foul.  The only disclaimer I can make is I only saw the long shot of each from the high camera over the division line.  The floor refs obviously have different views.

Here&#039;s the deal regarding the rules, and I&#039;m pretty certain this applies at both the high school and NBA levels.  Contact CAN be made when going for a loose ball but a player doesn&#039;t have the right to displace another when going for the ball.  In other words, you can&#039;t &#039;run through&#039; someone and have it be OK just because you are &#039;playing the ball&#039;.  There&#039;s also the concept of &#039;verticality&#039;.  Picture an imaginary cylinder that goes around the defender&#039;s torso and extends severl feet above him.  A defender in good, in good position, can pretty much have contact with the offensive player without it being a foul as long as he keeps his arms and body within that cylinder.  If he jumps, he has to jump straight up - staying within his &#039;cylinder&#039;.  That&#039;s verticality.  

I didn&#039;t see any displacement of LeBron on the first called foul against the Pacers.  I also thought the defender did a good job of remaining vertical.  It didn&#039;t appear like got into LeBron&#039;s &#039;space&#039;.  Based on the angle, I wouldn&#039;t have called a foul.

On LeBron&#039;s foul, he clearly was moving with the player when he jumped.  Watch the video closely, and you&#039;ll see Granger almost comes to a stop when he leaps for the ball and jumps almost straight up.  LeBron is watching the ball and continues his momentum as he leaps - and does two things that IMHO make it a foul.  One - he displaces Granger (again, you can&#039;t run through someone to get to a loose ball) and two - he does NOT jump vertically.  He is clearly jumping outside his &#039;cylinder&#039; when the contact is made.  I, too, would have called that a foul.

Was either contact a hard foul?  Of course not.  Could they have both been no-calls?  Of course they could have been.  But from a RULES standpoint, the LeBron-against-Granger foul was actually the easier one to justify.

JMHO</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I finally got around to watching some replays of the two fouls.  Here&#039;s the opinion of a high school ref &#8211; I actually think LeBron&#039;s foul on Granger was more egregious than the first foul.  The only disclaimer I can make is I only saw the long shot of each from the high camera over the division line.  The floor refs obviously have different views.</p>
<p>Here&#039;s the deal regarding the rules, and I&#039;m pretty certain this applies at both the high school and NBA levels.  Contact CAN be made when going for a loose ball but a player doesn&#039;t have the right to displace another when going for the ball.  In other words, you can&#039;t &#039;run through&#039; someone and have it be OK just because you are &#039;playing the ball&#039;.  There&#039;s also the concept of &#039;verticality&#039;.  Picture an imaginary cylinder that goes around the defender&#039;s torso and extends severl feet above him.  A defender in good, in good position, can pretty much have contact with the offensive player without it being a foul as long as he keeps his arms and body within that cylinder.  If he jumps, he has to jump straight up &#8211; staying within his &#039;cylinder&#039;.  That&#039;s verticality.  </p>
<p>I didn&#039;t see any displacement of LeBron on the first called foul against the Pacers.  I also thought the defender did a good job of remaining vertical.  It didn&#039;t appear like got into LeBron&#039;s &#039;space&#039;.  Based on the angle, I wouldn&#039;t have called a foul.</p>
<p>On LeBron&#039;s foul, he clearly was moving with the player when he jumped.  Watch the video closely, and you&#039;ll see Granger almost comes to a stop when he leaps for the ball and jumps almost straight up.  LeBron is watching the ball and continues his momentum as he leaps &#8211; and does two things that IMHO make it a foul.  One &#8211; he displaces Granger (again, you can&#039;t run through someone to get to a loose ball) and two &#8211; he does NOT jump vertically.  He is clearly jumping outside his &#039;cylinder&#039; when the contact is made.  I, too, would have called that a foul.</p>
<p>Was either contact a hard foul?  Of course not.  Could they have both been no-calls?  Of course they could have been.  But from a RULES standpoint, the LeBron-against-Granger foul was actually the easier one to justify.</p>
<p>JMHO</p>
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		<title>By: FootsieW</title>
		<link>http://www.ohiomm.com/blogs/mcmanamon/2009/02/11/on-joey-crawfords-call-in-indianapolis-and-mike-browns-tirade/comment-page-1/#comment-1901</link>
		<dc:creator>FootsieW</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 12 Feb 2009 11:26:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ohiomm.com/blogs/mcmanamon/?p=1177#comment-1901</guid>
		<description>Its one thing to call a &quot;makeup call&quot; because you blow a call. I hate it but can understand it but the Crawford situation was totally wrong on two counts. First, he was making up for another offical&#039;s call. He cannot know what another offical saw. The fact is, Granger totally grabbed LeBron prior to them going up for the alley oop pass. Most of the replays start when they are going up but the foul occured prior to that. Secondly, that call only gave the Cavs a chance to tie and put the game in OT. The alley oop to Granger was a poor pass and was well short which gave Lebron a chance at the ball. There was absolutely no foul. Calling that foul with .01 left on the clock meant the Cavs would have no chance to win the game. If Granger makes just one, the game is over.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Its one thing to call a &#034;makeup call&#034; because you blow a call. I hate it but can understand it but the Crawford situation was totally wrong on two counts. First, he was making up for another offical&#039;s call. He cannot know what another offical saw. The fact is, Granger totally grabbed LeBron prior to them going up for the alley oop pass. Most of the replays start when they are going up but the foul occured prior to that. Secondly, that call only gave the Cavs a chance to tie and put the game in OT. The alley oop to Granger was a poor pass and was well short which gave Lebron a chance at the ball. There was absolutely no foul. Calling that foul with .01 left on the clock meant the Cavs would have no chance to win the game. If Granger makes just one, the game is over.</p>
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		<title>By: alan t.</title>
		<link>http://www.ohiomm.com/blogs/mcmanamon/2009/02/11/on-joey-crawfords-call-in-indianapolis-and-mike-browns-tirade/comment-page-1/#comment-1900</link>
		<dc:creator>alan t.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 11 Feb 2009 22:30:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ohiomm.com/blogs/mcmanamon/?p=1177#comment-1900</guid>
		<description>Who the hell is Arn Anderson?  I know who Ric Flair is, but that&#039;s only because I saw him years ago when Turner used to have wrestling.  The last time I saw Flair, his bleach job was way too lemony and his man-boobs were way too saggy.  I&#039;m guessing that with the switch to McMahon, he&#039;s had to really lift some hard iron and gotten into A-Roid&#039;s stash to stay in the limelight this long.  That dude must be close to 60 by now.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Who the hell is Arn Anderson?  I know who Ric Flair is, but that&#039;s only because I saw him years ago when Turner used to have wrestling.  The last time I saw Flair, his bleach job was way too lemony and his man-boobs were way too saggy.  I&#039;m guessing that with the switch to McMahon, he&#039;s had to really lift some hard iron and gotten into A-Roid&#039;s stash to stay in the limelight this long.  That dude must be close to 60 by now.</p>
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		<title>By: terje</title>
		<link>http://www.ohiomm.com/blogs/mcmanamon/2009/02/11/on-joey-crawfords-call-in-indianapolis-and-mike-browns-tirade/comment-page-1/#comment-1899</link>
		<dc:creator>terje</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 11 Feb 2009 22:20:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ohiomm.com/blogs/mcmanamon/?p=1177#comment-1899</guid>
		<description>o.k. alan, if it&#039;s a foul at both ends then they should call that foul the whole game.  then the game could take about 5 hours to finish.  

to me, the cavs deserved the loss.  granger&#039;s foul was a joke.  and then the worst referee in the league--joey crawford--added another page to his autobiography &quot;how to use poor judgment as an nba referee&quot; by compounding the bad call at the other end by calling one of his own.  the game was tied!!!  as windhorst likes to say, it all evens out.  let the game go to o.t. and see what happens there.  no need to double up bad calls.  a good referee or an umpire will let the game play in the final second unless the foul is egregious.  ol&#039; shag is filling his coffin up with post-mortem vomit right now.  and any person who doesn&#039;t work for david stern knows that joey crawford is a corrupt referee with a fragile ego.  the guy had to resign once and was suspended two playoffs ago because he can&#039;t handle himself on the floor.  stern&#039;s nba resembles wrestlemania.  i&#039;m surprised arn anderson and ric flair didn&#039;t come out to drag lebron away from the floor.

*gives joey crawford a knife edge chop to the chest*

&quot;whooooooooooooooooooo!&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>o.k. alan, if it&#039;s a foul at both ends then they should call that foul the whole game.  then the game could take about 5 hours to finish.  </p>
<p>to me, the cavs deserved the loss.  granger&#039;s foul was a joke.  and then the worst referee in the league&#8211;joey crawford&#8211;added another page to his autobiography &#034;how to use poor judgment as an nba referee&#034; by compounding the bad call at the other end by calling one of his own.  the game was tied!!!  as windhorst likes to say, it all evens out.  let the game go to o.t. and see what happens there.  no need to double up bad calls.  a good referee or an umpire will let the game play in the final second unless the foul is egregious.  ol&#039; shag is filling his coffin up with post-mortem vomit right now.  and any person who doesn&#039;t work for david stern knows that joey crawford is a corrupt referee with a fragile ego.  the guy had to resign once and was suspended two playoffs ago because he can&#039;t handle himself on the floor.  stern&#039;s nba resembles wrestlemania.  i&#039;m surprised arn anderson and ric flair didn&#039;t come out to drag lebron away from the floor.</p>
<p>*gives joey crawford a knife edge chop to the chest*</p>
<p>&#034;whooooooooooooooooooo!&#034;</p>
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		<title>By: alan t.</title>
		<link>http://www.ohiomm.com/blogs/mcmanamon/2009/02/11/on-joey-crawfords-call-in-indianapolis-and-mike-browns-tirade/comment-page-1/#comment-1897</link>
		<dc:creator>alan t.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 11 Feb 2009 21:41:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ohiomm.com/blogs/mcmanamon/?p=1177#comment-1897</guid>
		<description>Andy, it was a clearly a foul on both ends.  And I just got a new reading glasses prescription for my computer, so I know my eyes aren&#039;t lying.  Cost me $200.  Either it&#039;s called on both ends or it&#039;s not called on both ends.  I didn&#039;t and don&#039;t &quot;predetermine&quot; any view.  I thought James got a gift on the first foul.  I thought Granger got a gift on the second foul.  And the only reason either one of them was a gift is because they usually let that stuff slide in the last second, unless some guy out there is really constipated, hasn&#039;t taken a dump in five days, and therefore is compelled to call a completely phantom Scottie Pippen imaginary foul on Hubert Davis.  That Davis gift was not a foul.  But the two at the end of this Pacers game were.    

I mean, this is just dumb.  Take just one of those traveling gifts that James gets, or just one of those palming gifts that Williams got, give Indiana two or three points for the turnover, and it wouldn&#039;t have even come to an Indiana pass to Granger, because the game would have been over.  But needless to say, people in the salmonella peanut gallery would still be writing really dumb stuff about imaginary anti-Cleveland conspiracies.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Andy, it was a clearly a foul on both ends.  And I just got a new reading glasses prescription for my computer, so I know my eyes aren&#039;t lying.  Cost me $200.  Either it&#039;s called on both ends or it&#039;s not called on both ends.  I didn&#039;t and don&#039;t &#034;predetermine&#034; any view.  I thought James got a gift on the first foul.  I thought Granger got a gift on the second foul.  And the only reason either one of them was a gift is because they usually let that stuff slide in the last second, unless some guy out there is really constipated, hasn&#039;t taken a dump in five days, and therefore is compelled to call a completely phantom Scottie Pippen imaginary foul on Hubert Davis.  That Davis gift was not a foul.  But the two at the end of this Pacers game were.    </p>
<p>I mean, this is just dumb.  Take just one of those traveling gifts that James gets, or just one of those palming gifts that Williams got, give Indiana two or three points for the turnover, and it wouldn&#039;t have even come to an Indiana pass to Granger, because the game would have been over.  But needless to say, people in the salmonella peanut gallery would still be writing really dumb stuff about imaginary anti-Cleveland conspiracies.</p>
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		<title>By: andy@ksu</title>
		<link>http://www.ohiomm.com/blogs/mcmanamon/2009/02/11/on-joey-crawfords-call-in-indianapolis-and-mike-browns-tirade/comment-page-1/#comment-1896</link>
		<dc:creator>andy@ksu</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 11 Feb 2009 19:56:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ohiomm.com/blogs/mcmanamon/?p=1177#comment-1896</guid>
		<description>alan t
all you are doing is changing the subject when call lebron a cry baby, say the game should not have come down that last play, etc. your statements might be true, but they have nothing to do with the call in question being bad. no reasonable basketball fan could conclude that lebron fouled granger. it was a jump ball. if anything ford under threw the pass and granger impeded lebron. it was a terrible pass.
however alan t, everyone could have anticipated your position on this issue. much like crawford did on the last foul call, you predetermine all of your views to be against the cleveland side. if this situation was turned around you would say the refs gave the cavs a gift.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>alan t<br />
all you are doing is changing the subject when call lebron a cry baby, say the game should not have come down that last play, etc. your statements might be true, but they have nothing to do with the call in question being bad. no reasonable basketball fan could conclude that lebron fouled granger. it was a jump ball. if anything ford under threw the pass and granger impeded lebron. it was a terrible pass.<br />
however alan t, everyone could have anticipated your position on this issue. much like crawford did on the last foul call, you predetermine all of your views to be against the cleveland side. if this situation was turned around you would say the refs gave the cavs a gift.</p>
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		<title>By: alan t.</title>
		<link>http://www.ohiomm.com/blogs/mcmanamon/2009/02/11/on-joey-crawfords-call-in-indianapolis-and-mike-browns-tirade/comment-page-1/#comment-1894</link>
		<dc:creator>alan t.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 11 Feb 2009 18:31:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ohiomm.com/blogs/mcmanamon/?p=1177#comment-1894</guid>
		<description>Actually, he did impede Granger and he bumped him, DinD.  Technically, a foul.  But what&#039;s this debate really about anyway?  A lousy team with four guys out.  And they lost to them.  Brown isn&#039;t &quot;working the refs&quot; in this situation, they&#039;re not going to get any additional calls because he chooses to whine.  If anything, he&#039;ll be quietly mocked.  

As it now stands, James cries to a ref each and every time a foul isn&#039;t called, even when a replay irrefutably shows that nobody touched the dude.  If a shot is blocked or a ball is stolen, gee, how could it have happened to The King if he wasn&#039;t fouled, it&#039;s just not possible!!!

People could play one of those drinking games with all the times that James gets away with a travel and, if yesterday&#039;s game was any indication, that Williams gets away with a palm.  Players and coaches who whine during and after a game losing to an inferior team just come off as babies.  

Just play the game.  If they were 10 points down, as a lottery team missing four guys should have been, then we wouldn&#039;t even be having this discussion about end of game calls.  Simply a bad, bad performance, just like old times with James having to carry a roster on his back.  But it happens, even the Lakers lost a home game to Charlotte.  Who cares.  The playoffs are all that matters.  

And as far as your post is concerned, Ed, isn&#039;t referring to Ilgauskas&#039; layups and dunks redundant?  If you can actually tell the difference between the two, then you should apply for a job with Interpol.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Actually, he did impede Granger and he bumped him, DinD.  Technically, a foul.  But what&#039;s this debate really about anyway?  A lousy team with four guys out.  And they lost to them.  Brown isn&#039;t &#034;working the refs&#034; in this situation, they&#039;re not going to get any additional calls because he chooses to whine.  If anything, he&#039;ll be quietly mocked.  </p>
<p>As it now stands, James cries to a ref each and every time a foul isn&#039;t called, even when a replay irrefutably shows that nobody touched the dude.  If a shot is blocked or a ball is stolen, gee, how could it have happened to The King if he wasn&#039;t fouled, it&#039;s just not possible!!!</p>
<p>People could play one of those drinking games with all the times that James gets away with a travel and, if yesterday&#039;s game was any indication, that Williams gets away with a palm.  Players and coaches who whine during and after a game losing to an inferior team just come off as babies.  </p>
<p>Just play the game.  If they were 10 points down, as a lottery team missing four guys should have been, then we wouldn&#039;t even be having this discussion about end of game calls.  Simply a bad, bad performance, just like old times with James having to carry a roster on his back.  But it happens, even the Lakers lost a home game to Charlotte.  Who cares.  The playoffs are all that matters.  </p>
<p>And as far as your post is concerned, Ed, isn&#039;t referring to Ilgauskas&#039; layups and dunks redundant?  If you can actually tell the difference between the two, then you should apply for a job with Interpol.</p>
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		<title>By: DinD</title>
		<link>http://www.ohiomm.com/blogs/mcmanamon/2009/02/11/on-joey-crawfords-call-in-indianapolis-and-mike-browns-tirade/comment-page-1/#comment-1893</link>
		<dc:creator>DinD</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 11 Feb 2009 17:10:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ohiomm.com/blogs/mcmanamon/?p=1177#comment-1893</guid>
		<description>Everyone who says that the Cavs should never let a game against the Pacers reach the final minute is correct.  They shouldn&#039;t be in that position.

But aside from that, alan t is simply wrong.  The plays were not the same at all.  I&#039;ve watched them over and over also.  Granger hooked his arm over LeBron&#039;s arm.  LeBron was prevented from reaching straight up.  Foul, no?  On the other end, LeBron was in perfect position, and swatted a short pass.  He in now way impeded Granger.  I think LBJ&#039;s take made sense:  maybe the refs swallow the whistle on that first play, in the last second of a game.  But you can in no way justify the second.  To do so would prevent a player from playing defense.

And I&#039;m all for Mike Brown making public noise about this.  It&#039;s not like the refs are consistent.  There are huge home/road disparities, so I have to believe that working the refs is important.  Let&#039;s get every call we can.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Everyone who says that the Cavs should never let a game against the Pacers reach the final minute is correct.  They shouldn&#039;t be in that position.</p>
<p>But aside from that, alan t is simply wrong.  The plays were not the same at all.  I&#039;ve watched them over and over also.  Granger hooked his arm over LeBron&#039;s arm.  LeBron was prevented from reaching straight up.  Foul, no?  On the other end, LeBron was in perfect position, and swatted a short pass.  He in now way impeded Granger.  I think LBJ&#039;s take made sense:  maybe the refs swallow the whistle on that first play, in the last second of a game.  But you can in no way justify the second.  To do so would prevent a player from playing defense.</p>
<p>And I&#039;m all for Mike Brown making public noise about this.  It&#039;s not like the refs are consistent.  There are huge home/road disparities, so I have to believe that working the refs is important.  Let&#039;s get every call we can.</p>
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