Does the Tribe's move in signing Fausto Carmona end any chance of bringing C.C. Sabathia back?
Now it can and has been argued — I believe I have written this before — that Sabathia is done here. The Tribe is in no position to sign Sabathia to $160 million for seven seasons. And I beleive that. Just like the Travis Hafner deal was ludicrous. That type of deal for Sabathia should not be on the Tribe's radar. It makes no sense long or short term.
That being said GM Mark Shapiro has said talks with C.C. aren't dead. And later today, he probably will say that again.
But don't believe it. It really doesn't fit into the Tribe's way of thinking to pay a pitcher for that long when he will be in his mid-30s when the deal is complete.
I believe any chance of Sabathia staying with the Indians died today.
Agree?
{ 12 comments… read them below or add one }
BE HONEST…if you had to choose one pitcher, either Fausto or C.C., to win ONE GAME–a game your very life depended upon–who would you select? Right, Fausto.
It's the unspoken secret that people are afraid to admit: Carmona is consistently better than Sabathia. The "hype" over C.C. (and the probably undeserved Cy Young) have driven his price tag into the realm of ridiculousness. Good for him, but there's no reason at all for the Tribe to cave into those hand-tying insane demands. Think the Giants wouldn't LOVE to have back their Zito decision? Some team is gonna do the same stupid thing with C.C., then find out that he simply cannot win the big games.
Kudos to Shapiro for inking the guy we need. So long, C.C., we've got Adam Miller, Sower, Laffey and others ready to replace you and Byrd…and we won't miss a beat.
But if that was the thinking the entire time, and clearly it was, then it doesn't make the least bit of sense why they didn't deal Sabathia during the off-season. Coming off a Cy Young season, his trade value, with one season still left on his contract, would never again be higher. I simply do not understand the rationale and I can't think of anything more illogical than not dealing him when the dealing was still good.
Alan, it's the same bizarre thinking the Browns have. They're basically AFRAID to part with the player (i.e. D.Anderson or CCSabathia) because of the success the team(s) had the prior season. The GMs know that if there's a falloff in wins, the fan backlash will be directed at their trade moves. There's also a sense from both GMs that the year to win big is *right now* and the only way that will happen is by banking on CC and D.A. It's flawed thinking, for sure. But Shapiro's the same guy who wanted Jason Johnson, sticks with his punchless lineup of nice guys, re-signed Byrd and JoBo (2 big mistakes)…. While Savage is simply allowing the most heralded and antipated player in recent NFL history to rot away on the bench behind an interception-tossing guy who had success against the league's weakest schedule.
Boy, Cleveland sure knows how to pick 'em, huh?
The most heralded and anticipated player in recent NFL history was taken with the 22nd pick of the 2007 draft.
Oh yeah. Maybe it's too much to pay C.C. though I've never seen any dependable numbers concerning any mlb club's profit margins, etc. and believe that it's mostly speculation and p.r.
But I'd think signing C.C. to a seven year contract is much less a risk than signing a pitcher with one good year under his belt for seven years. Mid-thirties isn't that old for a pitcher.
Put it this way, Larry, if Brady Quinn was in this year's draft, he'd be taken #1 overall by Miami, no questions asked. And if Parcells had been in charge there last year, he'd have been taken at #8. I don't see Jamarcus Russell's face on any commercials, but I sure do see our "backup" QBs face everywhere…and just wait till he gets some playing time.
Fausto's contract is no risk at all. Even if he maxes it all out, we're paying him less than what frikkin Paul Byrd is making this year!!!
Please…please…name me ONE pitcher who's signed a mega-deal (the insane type that C.C. supposedly will get) where it's worked out for the club. Zito? Kevin Brown? Mike Hampton? B.J. Ryan? Carl Pavano? A.J. Burnette? Millwood? By the players' 2nd season, I'll wager that EVERY ONE OF THOSE TEAMS wish they'd never offered such a deal.
I guess we'd have to qualify what constitutes a 'mega deal.' Is there a certain amount or number of years, or percentage over the average? Of course those numbers would have to go up some every year.
But I'd guess Pedro Martinez was paid pretty well when he helped the Red Sox win the World Series, and Randy Johnson when he led the Diamondbacks there. And Greg Maddux, Smoltz and Glavine probably got paid at or near market value when they were in Atlanta.
Mid-level salaries can be just as harmful to a team's payroll. The Indians are currently paying Michaels, Delucci, Byrd and Blake about $20 million a year. I wouldn't trade C.C. for those four guys and doubt you could find a GM who would.
Paying 4 guys @ $5-mil, vs. 1 guy @ $20-mil. That kind of financial structure leads to franchise collapse. Even the Braves had to break up their Hall of Famers. CC, by the way, is no Pedro or Johnson, except their common injuries. Give them the ball in the playoffs and they didn't consistently choke.
These salaries have become an outright joke. What human being needs $100-million over a 7-year career? Is there something he needs to buy that he couldn't get with a more-reasonable $50-mil? Is it just an ego thing now, where one contract needs to top the last guy's? Shapiro, don't fall for that nonsense. Carmona is your ace. Don't waste our time with Sabathia.
The Carmona deal was the smartest move Shapiro has ever made. It'll be spades for years.
Very good points made about sticking with turds like Michaels, Byrd, Borowski, and Dellucci. It'd be one thing if they were making reasonable money, but THESE guys combining for almost 30% of the Indians' payroll? Trot Nixon even thinks that's lunacy.
The sickest part? Buffalo and Akron have some of the finest prospects in all of baseball, both pitching and hitting. Guys like Miller, Laffey, Francisco, and Trevor Crowe who can flat out play. Too bad our front office is too timid to rely on the young (and inexpensive) talent we already have.
This team still needs a closer to really be considered the elite team to beat. Until then, we're just VERY good.
How can anybody possibly translate the performance of a minor league player to what they may or may not do in the majors? Tell me, when is Alex Escobar going to be inducted into Cooperstown? Looking forward to it.
With respect to Sabathia, this is an interesting read from July '06:
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9D06E0DB1F30F935A25754C0A9609C8B63&sec=&spon=&pagewanted=1
It is a big risk and the question is will C.C. improve or get worse? From all I've read his biggest problem seems to be he gets too intense in spots. If I had to pick a flaw in a youngish pitcher, that might be it.
What is he, 27? I can understand if the Tribe passes on re-signing C.C. but I believe he's still maturing and he will improve rather than decline.
The NYTimes article was good but didn't give me any more of a handle on whether pitchers performing up to contracts is an exception to the rule.
It trotted out the same old flops who didn't perform after a big contract–Hampton, etc. Most of those guys either didn't have the record and talent C.C. has and/or had injury histories.
I also wonder how C.C.'s career compares to Randy Johnson's when Johnson was 27 or so?
An addendum:
Going into the season Randy Johnson turned 28, Johnson had a 24-24 lifetime record. His previous season had been a pretty good one, with a 14-11 record and 3.65 ERA.
At the same age, C.C. is 100-65 with a career ERA of 3.90. Last season he was 19-7 with a 3.21 ERA and won his first Cy Young.
Maddux's career stats at C.C's age were incredible–much better than C.C.'s plus two Cy Young's I believe. His first Cy Young was his last season with the Cubs if I remember correctly. They didn't want to overpay.
Pedro Martinez's career stats looked very similar to C.C.'s at the same age.