Worth it?
Posted July 12th, 2007 by Ron
Is a designated hitter who can't play in the field worth $14.25 million per season?
There was some talk in the offseason that maybe $10 million per season would be enough to sign Travis Hafner. I wrote three months ago that I thought it would take around $15 million.
As expected, Travis Hafner was the most likely to stay with the Tribe rather than C.C. Sabathia. What do you all think? $140 million for seven years for Sabathia?
The question is should Hafner have been given the highest priority as it seems he was. Or is this the sign that the Tribe has no plans to try to keep Sabathia?
July 12th, 2007 at 10:23 am
You know the answer, although I recognize you're trying to provoke discussion. Let's just hope Shapiro ultimately moves Sabathia for something in return.
Yet another Indian-raised guy that's going to wear his Hall of Fame hat elsewhere. Well, at least he's not doing the bald-faced, big-nosed Pinocchio bit, like a Thome. I wonder if his Prada wife is still his "rock."
Hey, maybe within five to ten years, Sowers will be able to drag himself out of the minors and take Sabathia's place. Always thinking positive.
July 12th, 2007 at 12:49 pm
Ledger, you are out of your mind. Sabathia was 12-11 last season. And you're ready to award him $20-million per season? Sorry, buddy, but that line of thinking will bankrupt the game and the fans. Could you really justify giving one pitcher/player ONE-QUARTER of the team's payroll? Imagine how an everyday player making only $2-million would feel. When A-Rod signed his infamous $250-million contract, Tom Hicks was universally labeled a nutjob. It got him NO PLAYOFFS, and he couldn't wait to unload the foolishness. Pray tell me, why does the media perpetuate these inflated salary discussions? Do you want the ownership to be forced to move the club to a higher-income city, just so they can pay your pet-players their quarter-billions? Thank heavens for the NFL and NBA salary-caps. Baseball is fighting a losing battle with this money crap spinning so far out of control….
July 12th, 2007 at 12:55 pm
Correct me if I'm wrong, but if memory serves, last season Sabathia had the run support of a little league team. Seriously, what does last season's record have to do with it, let alone the Texas Rangers.
Hell, if you want to point to a guy's record, then just toss Nolan Ryan out of the Hall of Fame right now.
July 12th, 2007 at 1:00 pm
Ryan, C.C. has more wins at his age than sure-Hall of Famer Tom Glavine did. And A-Rod is going to get more than $30 million per season in his next go-around. Also Barry Zito won more than 17 games once in his careeer and was 16-10 last season and signed for seven years at $126M. Would I pay that much for C.C., is it good for the Indians or baseball? I say no to all of it, but is it reality? Absolutely. Look the Indians just paid a DH $14.5M per season. That works out to $29,000 per plate appearance, and Travis Hafner has six fewer home runs than Carlos Pena of the Devil Rays right now and Hafner is batting .262.
July 12th, 2007 at 2:10 pm
Just because all the other wannabe-contenders think it's wise to pay (gasp!) 30-million a season to an adulterer who wound up hitting 8th in the playoff lineup, or nearly 20-million a season to a guy that many rookies can top in wins (given the chance): Are all the other teams supposed to follow suit and jump off that bridge?
C.C. may well become a Hall of Famer, good for him. But why get so attached to one guy that you become all bitter and resentful if he happens to leave for a better offer or location? Yeah, the Hafner deal is one that Shapiro will probably live to regret, just like Matt Lawton's. But his 4-yr. deal at least doesn't make my stomach churn like some of these other numbers you're callously tossing around, as if it's a "no brainer" that owners can easily afford. Where's the line drawn? What's the limit? The bubble will burst, like it did for tech stocks, and we'll all be losers then.
July 12th, 2007 at 5:40 pm
Has a rookie ever had 12 wins by the break? None of the Indians young pitchers are as promising as C.C., and they're not that much younger either.
$20 million is a lot of money and maybe it's not worth it. But I'd rather have one or two elite types, plus a bunch of young talent, than 4 or 5 high paid veterans who don't do much more than hold back the prospects. How much do Delucci, Nixon and Michaels make? There's probably $10 million in those kind of salaries that could have been spent to keep C.C.
As for Hafner, a DH should put up MVP numbers each year to make that kind of dough. He might, if he stays healthy. Who knows if he's ever commited adultery or not.
July 12th, 2007 at 6:44 pm
So they overpay for a DH, overpay for Lee and Westbrook, and the complainers are already on the radio whining because "they should've signed CC." There's just no pleasing this market; they will find something negative to say on the very day the Tribe sweeps a World Series. Poor Shapiro cannot win. When Haf & Jake were on the market, the nuts were demanding they be signed at any cost!! Now they're signed and the nuts couldn't care less. "Give me Sabathia, or I'll never support you!! AGGHH!! (insert Howard Dean yell)!!!!"
RE: Delucci. Can we please fire Buck Showalter now? He's the "adviser" who pushed for that signing.
RE: Sabathia. Let's just CUT THE WHOLE TEAM. All 24, and give their money to CC. Will THAT make ya happy, you sick "fans?" Yes!! Make him richer! RICHER! R-I-C-H-E-RRRRR! Pile on more cash!! Build him a friggin mansion!! Sell your soul! Sign him! Sign him, (sob, sob, sob).
July 12th, 2007 at 10:01 pm
Name me five major league players that aren't "adulterers." And no, the closeted gays don't count.
I think Shapiro has proven that he's prudent and wise enough to ultimately do a Bartolo Colon type thing. At least they'll get something for him.
July 13th, 2007 at 6:45 am
Unfortunately, the fans won't allow Mr. Shapiro to get anything for C.C. Sabathia. They are beyond reasoning with, and insist that Cleveland rob a Brinks truck to keep the guy. If Mark trades C.C. before the end of 2008, it will reinforce the incorrect-opinion that the club is cheap. The team will not want to face that backlash, so they'll keep negotiating, but will ultimately lose the bidding war. Alas, it will then be too late to receive anything for C.C., and this time it will be ALL on the so-called fans, who couldn't see the trees for the forest.
July 13th, 2007 at 9:57 am
Poor Mark and Eric!
There's all kinds of evidence that the fans are forcing their hand: I heard they received at least four emails demanding they acquire Delucci and Nixon. Now they're getting blamed for those signings and it's just not fair!
July 14th, 2007 at 5:54 pm
At least C.C. is an equal-opportunity loser. Wilted vs. Verlander & the Tigers, and now has surrendered 5 runs in 3 innings to the deplorable Royals. Where's the load of gold bullion for our superstar? Give this man everything he's ever wanted, and then double it. He's worth every cent we've ever fondled. Just like Clemens and his 2-4 record is worth that $28-million this season for the Yankees. The inmates are on a rampage.
July 14th, 2007 at 6:26 pm
Out of curiosity, what if it wasn't C.C. Sabathia, but instead it was Johan Santana that was raised in the Indians farm system, and it was Johan Santana that was threatening to go to the West Coast for huge money when his Indians contract expires. Same opinion? Let the greedy no-good bastard walk?
July 15th, 2007 at 9:58 am
Santana, Sabathia…doesn't matter. (Athough please, let's not put those two in the same category. Johan is a bonafide Cy Young-type ace. CC is an inconsistent wannabe)
It comes down to this: ONE player cannot be allowed to destroy the salary structure of the entire team. One player cannot make 20+ times what another player makes and maintain team unity. One player is not worth 20 times what a teammate is. One player cannot account for 1/4 of the payroll. Why is this so hard to understand?
So yeah, whether it's CC or Johan holding a mid-market team hostage, it's time to move them for value.
July 15th, 2007 at 11:15 am
You know, I've never really heard many professional athletes complain about what their teammates make. Some reporters and fans get jealous and outraged, but players are just hoping to cash in too. I don't think it destroys locker room morale or team unity.
July 15th, 2007 at 2:52 pm
That "team unity" stuff is utter nonsense. Are you telling me that if Jeremy Sowers replaced C.C. Sabathia, and Sowers continued to pitch as poorly as he's been pitching, the team would be a tight little "Leave it to Beaver" family unit because Sowers isn't making the big money?
Who really gives a crap if a team is "unified?" Billions of examples out there. But since I'm a decrepit old fart, I'll say the players on Oakland's early '70s teams got their jollies by performing unrequested deep prostate exams upon each other with pairs of spiked shoes. Were they "unified?"
If you feel that one pitcher isn't worth being paid more than everybody else on a team's payroll, then just say so. But don't cloud the argument with silliness like "team unity." If a team wins, they're unified. If a team blows, they're not.
July 15th, 2007 at 4:25 pm
Has A-Rod's quarter-billion played well in Texas or NY? He hits, they lose. Teammates dislike him. Please show me one instance, just one, where a team has broken the bank to pay one player an outrageous sum…and it paid off with multiple rings. Then I'll show you dozens of examples where a team offered crazy money (Boston to Manny, Philly to Thome), and soon could not wait to unload the contract. Let us not forget, Manny was placed on waivers a couple seasons ago, and no one wanted the $20-million salary and semi-retarded mind of "Manny being Manny."
What a shame that baseball has become a sport where fans are now more concerned with a player's contract than their team's performance. When I was a kid, I studied stats, not spread-sheets. Free-agency has ruined MLB.
July 15th, 2007 at 9:29 pm
Sabathia would be wise to appreciate where and who he plays for. Yeah, Manny signed a $140 million deal with Boston, but wanted to void it and return to Cleveland one year later. Shapiro and Wedge have built a family of friends atmosphere, with a winning base plan. C.C. will find it's a cruel world out there. He'll be a very rich and happy man right here. Is it necessary to have more money than you and your decendants can spend in 10 generations? And why hamstring your boss with an outrageous deal that would prevent the overall team from upgrading and continuing to win while you're here?
July 15th, 2007 at 10:35 pm
A cruel world out there? Doubt it. I recently saw pictures of Sabathia's home, indoors and outdoors, pictured in the San Francisco Chronicle. Beautiful. Who wants to spend less than half a year living in California and the rest of the year living in Westlake? Never mind the money waiting for him…I mean, with all due respect to the Cleveland Chamber of Commerce, if given the choice, a person would have to be clinically insane to choose Cleveland over the Bay area. It wouldn't be good enough to even match an offer, Dolan would have to really beat it.
With that being said, from a PR standpoint alone, Dolan would be a bloody fool not to do everything possible to try to sign him no matter what it costs. I think the perception is that Dolan is going to go down without a real fight. When you've been a town clubbed in the head by Cleveland athlete after athlete after athlete after athlete, and with LeBron James likely the next guy to go, it is imperative for Dolan to make a very strong effort to keep Sabathia.
July 16th, 2007 at 12:41 am
You said it yourself, Sabathia has long wanted to return to Calif. to pitch in front of his hometown fans and family. Even though he literally sucks every single solitary time he pitches on the West Coast. Imagine what a loser he'd be pitching there on a steady basis.
I don't see any reason for Cleveland to "far exceed" any other offer. You can't compete with sun, hometown and a good living. The only hope for C.C. staying is the faint hope of him truly enjoying playing with this group of friends for 9 months (Feb. thru Oct.) every year. If that means something, then he should be willing to cut a reasonable deal to stay. If it doesn't, no reasonable amount will keep him.
QUESTION: Right now, hypothetically…you have to pick one, and only one, pitcher to keep for the next seven years. Either C.C. or Carmona. Which one do you choose? If you even have to THINK about that choice, why is everyone so fearful of C.C. leaving, with an up-and-coming ace already on the staff and on pace to win 20…something C.C. has never done.
July 16th, 2007 at 1:12 am
Sabathia is a lefty who was signed straight out of high school by the Indians, and is a damn good pitcher. When's the last time the Indians had a really good southpaw pitcher with any connection to Cleveland…Sam McDowell? I mean, the guy has been in the organization since high school! Sabathia has roots with the organization, and the town has been repeatedly burned by its owners and its athletes. Assuming Sabathia continues to have an excellent season, with the probability of James leaving soon, Dolan will come off looking like a hero if he busts his ass doing everything possible to re-up the guy this off-season. Even if it's just a dog and pony show for image, he has to seriously try.
July 16th, 2007 at 1:40 am
You didn't answer the question. Is Fausto in the same conversation with C.C., if you had to choose only one for now & the future?
The perpetual arguments about CC's supposed "connection" to Cleveland are pretty baseless. His home and heart has always been on the West Coast. Plenty of athletes have embraced this community. CC is not one of them.
July 16th, 2007 at 12:34 pm
Jimbo has an interesting question, particularly considering the fact that Ocker pretty much alluded to the same idea in his game story today.
It's odd that Colon, Nagy, and Sabathia (during his first 5 seasons) were never deemed to be good enough to be considered "aces" by the local media, but the term is now being mentioned with Carmona after a single half season. The wheels of C.C.'s departure are being greased!
Of course anyone who's job depended on winning would select C.C. over Carmona during the next seven years because it would be a much safer choice. Carmona's only pitched to each AL team a couple times, he's probably never started 30 games in a season and he's probably never pitched 200 innings. Come to think of it, Carmona pitched very well early last season, then faded disastrously. Of course that's been attributed to the pressure of closing games, but what does wilting under that pressure say about him anyway?
Also, you can't really give Carmona credit for 20 wins yet, unless you give C.C. credit for 20 wins as well. He's ahead of Carmona's pace.
July 17th, 2007 at 3:13 pm
Nagy never had "ace" type stuff, and Sabathia's 17-wins as a rookie were as much a result of a potent offense. His ERA was near 5.00, as I recall, not exactly "ace" material. Colon was the classic underachiever here, and you can't have that with an "ace."
Throw out last year's failed closer experiment, and Carmona has been dazzling, both in set-up and as a starter. I'd trust him over CC in a low-scoring game right now. Carmona has the nasty breaking ball that induces many, many ground balls. CC has the nasty habit of giving up hits at the worst possible moment.
July 17th, 2007 at 5:02 pm
Colon was pretty much what Sabathia is now–a very promising pitcher who did very well early and is on the verge of having a Cy Young-type season. Of course he was also getting close to cashing some very big paychecks.
July 18th, 2007 at 11:44 pm
If I'm not mistaken, Santana is eligible to become a free agent at the same time that Sabathia becomes eligible.
July 26th, 2007 at 10:41 pm
Given the choice of keeping one or the other: I'll take Carmona over Sabathia. Fausto's upside is incredible, and he may win 20 and/or the Cy Young this season alone. CC was never "this good" at "this age." Yes, he has posted quite a few wins, but he has played with some dynamic offenses. Carmona is doing this with a lineup of .260 "bangers," like Blake, Nixon, Michaels, Barfield & castrated Hafner, plus inconsistent Peralta, strikeout king Sizemore. It is truly a wonder that this team has won so many games with that impotent and offensive offense.