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Timothy McVeigh And Free Speech

by Da King on September 21, 2009

in civil rights,first amendment,freedom,liberalism,protests,Uncategorized,White House administration

I've pretty much had my fill of liberals condemning free speech, and then using the specters of racism and/or violent right-wing boogeymen as the excuse. In my last three posts, I have outlined examples of the left calling the right racist. It's the number one argument they use to discount the Tea Party protests. That argument was shot down by President Obama himself on Meet The Press on sunday:

DAVID GREGORY: …this week you had former President Jimmy Carter saying most, not just a little, but most of this Republican opposition against you is motivated by racism. Do you agree with that?

PRESIDENT OBAMA: No. Look, I said, during the campaign, are there some people who still think through the prism of race when it comes to evaluating me and my candidacy? Absolutely. Sometimes they vote for me for that reason, sometimes they vote against me for that reason. I'm sure that was true during the campaign, I'm sure that's true now. But I think you actually put your finger on what this argument's really about. And it's an argument that's gone on for the history of this republic. And that is what's the right role of government? How do we balance freedom with our need to look after one another?

The President is absolutely correct. The argument here is about the role of government, not race. The President pointed out that the argument about the government's role goes all the way back to Thomas Jefferson versus Alexander Hamilton, and that it always evokes passionate debate. Nothing has changed. Our President is apparently much more intelligent than many of his clueless supporters, who play the race card at the drop of a hat. Kudos to President Obama for saying this.

After the racism charge, the number two free speech stopper used by the left is the politics of fear (which I seem to remember the left condemning not too long ago, ironically enough), in the form of those right-wing boogeymen I mentioned earlier. Apparently, liberals think there are cadres of right-wing nutjobs sitting in front of tv sets and radios all across the country, with their helmets on, armed with hand guns, hand grenades, and Billy Beer, just waiting for Bill O'Reilly, Rush Limbaugh, or Glenn Beck to give them their marching orders about who or what to go blow up. We saw Speaker of the House Nancy Pelosi (D-CA) playing the politics of fear card recently, when she weepily worried about potential violence in front of the cameras. The latest version of this inanity I've read came from the blissfully ignorant Media Matters (aka, George Soros Media Inc.), who had a profound enough lack of self-awareness to write a piece called 'A President was killed the last time right-wing hatred ran wild like this'. That President was John F. Kennedy, of course, and, as much as I hate to pierce Media Matters' bubble of historical revisionism, JFK was killed by Lee Harvey Oswald, a self-avowed communist. The last I heard, communism was a left-wing ideology. It wasn't "right-wing hatred" that killed JFK. It was left-wing hatred. Not that Media Matters let's the truth get in the way of a good old phony political diatribe.

I can point out ten acts of left-wing violence for every act of right-wing violence over the last several decades, and left-wing governments killed approximately 100 million people in the 20th century alone, (yet somehow liberals NEVER profess a fear of left-wing violence), but liberals do have a real right-wing boogeyman to whom they can point. That is Timothy McVeigh, the man who blew up the Federal Building in Oklahoma City in the 1990's, killing 168 people. Heinous. He received the death penalty, which he richly deserved.

McVeigh was an anti-tax, anti-big government Libertarian who voted for Libertarian candidate Harry Browne in the 1996 Presidential election. That makes McVeigh sound a lot like……ME. I voted for Harry Browne, and I agree with many Libertarian ideas. In light of McVeigh's violence, the question is, does that make the ideas themselves dangerous ??? Should I stop writing what I do because some nut might misinterpret it ? Should I self-censor my political rhetoric ? Liberals have been answering "YES" to that question for months now. They see a bunch of peaceful Tea Party protests (zero examples of right-wing violence) as some kind of powder keg, ready to explode. Liberal accuse the Tea Partiers of fear-mongering even as liberals fear-monger themselves. It's absurd, and we should all be able to see right through it.

Here are a couple things Timothy McVeigh said that I agree with (horrors ! You better arrest me NOW):

"Taxes are a joke. Regardless of what a political candidate "promises," they will increase. More taxes are always the answer to government mismanagement. They mess up. We suffer. Taxes are reaching cataclysmic levels, with no slowdown in sight"

"The government is afraid of the guns people have because they have to have control of the people at all times. Once you take away the guns, you can do anything to the people. You give them an inch and they take a mile. I believe we are slowly turning into a socialist government. The government is continually growing bigger and more powerful."

Dangerous ideas ? I think not. The Founding Fathers held those ideas, and they are ideas about liberty. I think the dangerous people are the ones who don't object to the ever-growing government, which has the inevitable crushing effect of taking away ever more property and choice (freedom) from the citizenry. McVeigh's gigantic mistake was moving into calls for civil war and violence. Naturally, I don't agree with that. I'm all for using peaceful means, as Martin Luther King advocated. You don't defeat tyranny by becoming a tyrant yourself. In America, we can defeat tyranny at the ballot box.

What McVeigh does represent is what I'll call The Lunatic Factor. We have a country of over 300 million people. Because human nature is fallible, some of those people are bound to be unhinged (I should name names here, but I'll resist). These people might listen to political speech and be motivated to do stupid and destructive things, as McVeigh did. What liberals seem not to understand is, this can manifest itself across the political spectrum. Liberals quake in their boots over largely imaginary right-wing violence, but then they turn around and call right-wingers racists, which is about as inflammatory as political rhetoric can get. If so-called "dangerous" speech is to be controlled, as liberals are advocating, then we can start with the liberals themselves. By labeling all the Tea Party protesters as racists, are not liberals, by their own standards, inciting violence against those alleged "racists" ? After all, racists are dangeous people who must be stopped. If Limbaugh and Beck are inciting violence, so are Olbermann, Garofalo, Maxine Waters, Jimmy Carter, etc.

It's one more liberal example of "do as I say, not as I do." The lack of self-awareness is nothing short of astounding. Are liberals incapable of remembering all the way back to LAST YEAR, when they were calling former President Bush all manners of inflammatory names ? For that matter, they still are calling Bush those names.

The bottom line here is, free speech is allowed in this country. We can't ever allow that to be lost. The people we should always cast a skeptical eye upon are the ones who are attempting to stifle it with their scare tactics. At this moment in history, the stiflers in this country are coming from the left. That also happens to be where the stiflers most often come from – from the big, all-powerful totalitarian governments the left is constantly advocating for (knowingly or not). The belief in freedom is not just an ideological exercise. The real world consequences are immense.

  • roysoldboy

    We can't allow the taking of the right to free speech by the government but there are so many attempts being considered by our Congress and czars right now. Of course, Mark Lloyd was hired to get rid of talk radio and will continue to try to do it legally, but it will happen even if Congress has to enact another Fairness Doctrine.

    I consider the right of those who have opted for lifestyle instead of health insurance to be a form of free speech. Now Obama doesn't feel that way. Yesterday he told Stephanopolous that the "fine" proposed for them if they don't end up with insurance is not a tax but it is not really a fine either. I wonder if Obama has been fully filled in on this and other Constitutional guarantees. He was supposedly a teacher of Constitution at Chicago U. and still can't seem to understand what is going on. Maybe he thought all the questions on his 5 interviews would be easier to answer than that one.

    Your mention of McVeigh on taxes brought up the thought about whether this fine is a tax or just a fine.

  • roysoldboy
  • walter

    so, if I get pulled over and found that I don't have car insurance, can I clain the fine is a tax and use it as a deduction?

  • roysoldboy

    Walter that may be one of you stupider questions. You sound just like a Democrat. I don't know about your state but in mine the only thing you need is a very small amount of liability insurance in case the accident is your fault.

    How do Democrats manage to compare auto insurance to health insurance? One is to help the other guy you run into and the other is to help you.

  • walter

    A President was killed the last time right-wing hatred ran wild like this

    let's say instead….A President was killed the last time the wind blew from the west like this…..would this mean the west wind killed the President?

  • Da King

    roy,
    Whether Obama wants to call the health insurance fines a tax or not doesn't really matter to me. What matters is that he wants the government to force the citizens to buy health insurance or pay up. That breaks the spirit of the promise Obama made over and over on the campaign trail not to raise taxes the middle class (a promise that he already broke with the cigarette tax). If his health insurance reform and cap-and-trade pass, he'll be raising the cost of living on the middle class immensely, making it harder for common folks to get by. Then I heard Obama on Letterman last night saying just the opposite thing, about how he wants to help the little guy. Far too often, the President's rhetoric doesn't match his actions.

  • roysoldboy

    I missed the Letterman performance because my wife turned the TV off while I was lifting weights the first five minutes of the show and I thought she didn't want it on. I knew it would be a time of laughing and giggling and nothing else. Actually anything Obama said would be less of more than he really wants. He never seems to make the same statements very often except in the interviews with the favored five Sunday morning. I loved the excerpts from those interviews that Fox put together. All softball questions with the same answer over and over. Stepophanopoulos was the only one with one tough question and it was handled poorly because there is really no good answer to it.

    The attempt to force everyone to have insurance is way off base as far as our Constitutional rights are concerned, but then we knew it would happen. No raising of taxes on the middle class is one promise that only the lower and upper classes should have been taken in by. Tbose of the middle class who voted for him deserve to pay more. I am not one of those so I shouldn't have to pay. LOL

  • roysoldboy

    King, I see that Walter has already fallen back on the talking points of the left. They want so much to connect Obama to Kennedy and are trying to use the killing of Kennedy by an avowed communist who had spent time in Russia (training)??. How do they get that as killing by a member of the right? They are great spinners.

  • The Reverend

    King agrees with this statement by domestic terrorist, Tim McVeigh…

    "Taxes are a joke. Regardless of what a political candidate "promises," they will increase. More taxes are always the answer to government mismanagement. They mess up. We suffer. Taxes are reaching cataclysmic levels, with no slowdown in sight"

    McVeigh said this during the 90's. Since then, capital gains and income taxe rate levels have been reduced to their lowest level in some 60 years. Yet McVeigh, and King, say that those levels "are reaching cataclysmic levels."

    And I'm not sure what King is agreeing with in this McVeigh statement….

    "The government is afraid of the guns people have because they have to have control of the people at all times. Once you take away the guns, you can do anything to the people. You give them an inch and they take a mile. I believe we are slowly turning into a socialist government. The government is continually growing bigger and more powerful."

    Though King believes in non-violent protest, many of his fellow Baggers, the gun toters and the 2nd amendment freaks, embrace all of what McVeigh said here. That's what all the "tree of liberty" and "don't tread on me" and "we came unarmed, this time" posters and banners are all about.

    Finally, though King states that Democrats from Pelosi to Obama are trying to squelch free speech….he misses the obvious point of responsible speech. Sure, the conservative freaks at Tea Parties and on Fox have the right to exercise free speech…..and progressives have the right of free speech to point out how irresponsible and phony the speech of the freaks actually is.

  • walter

    a whole post devoted to mass murderer Tim McViegh and no mention that McViegh collected a paycheck from the taxpayers

    Taxes`are a joke alright….except of course when they end up in my pocket

  • angry conserv

    King,
    Check out the new race based discipline program in the Tuscon's schools.. They are going to create an equity team that will ensure a commitment to social justice for all students by insuring that various groups discipline numbers are equalized. This program has the potential to be implemented in areas far beyond education in order to assure equal outcomes throughout society.

  • http://anti-marx.blogspot.com/ sunklhammer

    Just out of curiosity, I wonder if the irrelevant revrum can enlighten us all on what Jefferson meant when he said "the tree of liberty must be watered from time to time by the blood of patriots and tyrannt. It is it's natural manure."?

    I also wonder if the irrelevant rev can describe what a "2cnd Amendment "freak" is? Is it some one who loves the Constitution and the rights it gives to "we the people"? Or is it someone who looks wierd while exercising their rights under the 2cnd Amendment?

    My definition of a "freak" is the propensity of demonstrable idiots like the rev who cherry-pick through the Constitution, and make it a habit to belittle and besmirch those who those who don't believe in the (liberal/socialist) concept of a "living Constitution," but in the meaning and intent of the Framers.

    My definition of a freak is someone who thinks there's a "right to privacy" clause in the Constitution…or the phrase, "separation of church and state".

    My definition of a freak applies to those who steadfastly insist that this nation was not founded as a Christian nation….in spite of all the historical evidence that it was.

    Freaks deny facts, reality, and history….real Americans embrace them.

    BTW, freaky revrum, McVeigh was NOT a Christian. Neither was hitler.

  • walter
  • averagejoe5

    Nice Walter. I would bet all my money to a donut that that was written by a liberal trying to stir sh*t up. I would also make that same bet that you believe it's real, because that's how Libs roll. Or did you write it. You don't really believe that a Christian or someone from the Aryan Nation wrote that do you? That kind of sh*t is just as offensive to people like me and probably 99.999999% of Christians as it would be to it's target audience.
    What is more offensive is that you would actually post and promote garbage like this by putting it on this post. If King has the power, I wish he would take it off of here. Then you could put it on the destructive side. Where the real racists live. Wow, a new low, who woulda thought it could happen.

  • terje

    "You don't defeat tyranny by becoming a tyrant yourself. In America, we can defeat tyranny at the ballot box. "

    oh…..the irony.

  • Da King

    Rev,
    I figured you'd try to link McVeigh to the Tea Party protests, even though the Tea Party protests are entirely peaceful. Lame. Why are you engaging in the politics of fear ? You don't worry about terrorists attacking this country, yet you worry about one sign at a Tea Party event ?

    As for agreeing with McVeigh, here's another McVeigh statement, one that I've heard the Reverend state the equivalence of many times:

    "The administration has said that Iraq has no right to stockpile chemical or biological weapons (“weapons of mass destruction”) – mainly because they have used them in the past.
    Well, if that’s the standard by which these matters are decided, then the U.S. is the nation that set the precedent. The U.S. has stockpiled these same weapons (and more) for over 40 years…Why, then is it invalid for Iraq to claim the same reason (deterrence) — with respect to Iraq’s (real) war with, and the continued threat of, its neighbor Iran? If Saddam is such a demon, and people are calling for war crimes charges and trials against him and his nation, why do we not hear the same cry for blood directed at those responsible for even greater amounts of “mass destruction” — like those responsible and involved in dropping bombs on the cities mentioned above."

    To paraphrase the Rev – maybe the Rev is peaceful, but lots of his historically violent left-wing comrades who believe this are not. (I say this only to illustrate the ridiculous nature of the Rev's remarks about the Tea Partiers.)

  • Da King

    terje,
    Please explain the irony.

  • Da King

    Thanks for that link, walter. I didn't realize Christians were just a bunch of white supremacists.

    Probably because they aren't.

    Do you also think Muslims are just a bunch of terrorists ?

    Do you believe liberals are just a bunch of people who shoot anti-abortion activists and bite off people's fingers ?

    More importantly, do you think at all ?

  • Da King

    joe,
    I do have the power, but I'll let walter's post stand. As my post stated, I believe in free speech.

    walt hangs himself with his own posts. They show him for who he is, thereby discrediting him. Nobody is going to be fooled into believing Christians are a bunch of racists (well, maybe the Rev will, and maybe Bill Maher, but nobody capable of rational thought).

  • Da King

    angryc,
    I hadn't heard that. Please tell me you are joking.

  • roysoldboy

    Terje, I will believe that we can defeat tyranny at the ballot box when I walk into the polling place and cast my ballot in 2010 and 2012. I am not sure that people like me that fit all of Janet Napolitano's probable terrorists will be allowed to vote. What better way for Dems (in power now) to keep from being voted out than to force all the citizen "terrorists" to stand by while all ofthers get to vote.

    I don't even know how many present day illegal aliens will be voting at those two elections because of the proposed amnesty from the majority party. I remember how, in the Senate, they voted as a bloc for amnesty for all illegals in 2006. Since they have 60 seats in the same house now I guess there is a good chance they will determine that the best thing for the people is to make all those people illegal citizens, which is what I will see them as.

    I think I am saying that this method will make the Democrats the perpetual holders of power in the national, state and local governments for some time to come. I don't think the Constitution calls for this type of government but Pelosi – Reid and company do.

  • angry conserv

    wish I was–look it up–Orwell would be impressed

  • The Reverend

    Hey Hammer…..was the Constitution a "living" document when it was first enacted?

    If it wasn't, why were blacks counted as 2/3rds of a citizen and still permitted to be enslaved…and why didn't women have the right to vote, you know, when the Constitution was ratified?

    Or are you proposing we go back to the "non-living" Constitution where blacks can still be enslaved and women can't vote?

    Which is it?

  • http://anti-marx.blogspot.com/ sunklhammer

    Hey revrum idiot…study your history.

    The "life" of the Constitution is in it's permanent fundamentals regarding the rights of the people, and the limits on the government, AND the fact that it provided a way for it to be changed.

    Today's proponents for a "Living Constitution" do not want to change the parts of the Constitution that they don't like by using the method the Constitution provides. Instead, they want to change it using perverted laws and judicial activists.

    The beauty of the Constitution was that it provided the path to end slavery…the Framers understanding that it could not be done during the writing of the Constitution….and to give women the right to vote.

    The crime against the Constitution today is that it is being perverted by people who are intent in bringing back a different kind of slavery…one that isn't based on race

  • walter
  • walter

    King sez….."I didn't realize Christians were just a bunch of white supremacists."

    but we do know that there are some that are…..

    just saying

  • averagejoe5

    Your website tell me nothing. The supposed document is sealed? Why?

    I still think it was written by a white supremist. Maybe one of the originals who were all democrats. Read your history Walt.

    Just saying

  • walter

    joe sez……" You don't really believe that a Christian or someone from the Aryan Nation wrote that do you?"

    I believe that it was written by a Christian from the Aryan Nation

    when can I get my money…..loser

  • The Reverend

    Sunkl…..seriously dude, "a path to end slavery"? What exactly was that "path" again? We had to fight a freaking war to end slavery….some path, huh?

    And I wonder why it is that the Founders wrote a document with "permanent fundamentals regarding the rights of the people"…but didn't see the need to apply those rights to blacks and women. Was it because the "living" Constitution could not be thoroughly applied back in those openly racist and sexist days? And isn't it the job of the Supremes to interpret those "permanent fundamentals" that the "living" Constitution guarantees to all Americans?

  • Da King

    Geez, Rev. A CONSTITUTIONAL AMENDMENT outlawed slavery. The 13th Amendment. Ditto for the women's right to vote. That was the 19th Amendment.

    THAT is how the Constitution is supposed to be changed, by amending it, which is a legislative process. It is not supposed to be changed through judicial activism. You're making Sunkl's point for him.

    How can you not know this stuff ?? Even worse, how can you not be embarassed by your lack of knowledge ??

  • averagejoe5

    Whatever Walter. No Christian I know would ever write garbage like that. Also it isn't a real document. However I can produce hundreds of documents written like that,from that lib websites and bloggers that were blamed on Christians. Of course you would believe this is a real document, look at all of the other things you believe. Do you think a judge would read it with that language?
    Why do you call me loser? What if I called you moron? Of course I'm not. I was taught better manners than that……..just saying, ya know.

  • Da King

    walter,
    What was the point of your posting the ravings of that aryan idiot, anyway ? Do you think he is somehow representative of Christians, or what ?

  • larry d.

    To be honest the shaky punctuation, poor wording and misspellings lead me to suspect it's walt's own writing.

  • Da King

    I liked the part where the aryan was from the nationalist-socialist-libertarian church. That's like being a member of an organization called Tyrants For Freedom.

    That link was so off the wall that it does sound fake.

  • walter

    joe sez…."Why do you call me loser?"……you lose the bet you are the loser……what should I have I had said…… pay up winner?

    I've run into Christians like these guys……maybe not to this extreme, but still haters

  • http://anti-marx.blogspot.com/ sunklhammer

    The rev…who isn't one…says "And I wonder why it is that the Founders wrote a document with "permanent fundamentals regarding the rights of the people"…but didn't see the need to apply those rights to blacks and women."

    Try studying some history, idiot.

  • walter

    any questions?

  • Da King

    Yes, walt. I still have the same question that you didn't answer. Do you think that aryan loon is representative of Christians ?

  • walter

    King….all I'm saying is that some that consider themselves Christians are aryan loons. I could probably also say ALL aryan loons consider themselves Christians.

    The more impotant question is if joe is going to pay up

  • walter

    speaking of King's hero Timothy McVeigh, here's an interesting story from the libertarian website antiwar.com

    http://news.antiwar.com/2009/09/27/lawyer-oklahoma-city-bombing-tapes-missing-key-portions/

  • http://anti-marx.blogspot.com/ sunklhammer

    Walter, you're full of disingenuous bullcrap.

  • walter

    why would you say that?

  • greg

    Wy don't we focus on the real racists, the black panthers and ACORN outside of most of the voting booths in the past election??? Or 40 million Acorn has stolen in the past years? Let's make it an even playing field and quit sugarcoating 'whites only racism' this bullshit makes me ill!!! There is the aclu, black panthers and la raza why not talk about them too you hypocrites!!!

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