Comments on: An ACORN Falls From The Tree http://www.ohiomm.com/blogs/da_kings_men/2009/09/19/an-acorn-falls-from-the-tree/ Thu, 18 Mar 2010 23:46:55 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.9.2 hourly 1 By: walter http://www.ohiomm.com/blogs/da_kings_men/2009/09/19/an-acorn-falls-from-the-tree/comment-page-2/#comment-9864 walter Sun, 27 Sep 2009 14:05:32 +0000 http://www.ohiomm.com/blogs/da_kings_men/?p=6171#comment-9864 more from the libertarian website Antiwar.com......... http://www.antiwar.com/blog/2009/09/22/today-acorn-tomorrow-lockheed-martin-northrop-grumman/ more from the libertarian website Antiwar.com………

http://www.antiwar.com/blog/2009/09/22/today-acorn-tomorrow-lockheed-martin-northrop-grumman/

]]> By: walter http://www.ohiomm.com/blogs/da_kings_men/2009/09/19/an-acorn-falls-from-the-tree/comment-page-2/#comment-9863 walter Sun, 27 Sep 2009 13:46:34 +0000 http://www.ohiomm.com/blogs/da_kings_men/?p=6171#comment-9863 from the libertarian site Antiwar.com..........defunding ACORN http://original.antiwar.com/scahill/2009/09/25/where-is-the-defund-blackwater-act/ from the libertarian site Antiwar.com……….defunding ACORN

http://original.antiwar.com/scahill/2009/09/25/where-is-the-defund-blackwater-act/

]]> By: walter http://www.ohiomm.com/blogs/da_kings_men/2009/09/19/an-acorn-falls-from-the-tree/comment-page-2/#comment-9862 walter Sun, 27 Sep 2009 12:27:04 +0000 http://www.ohiomm.com/blogs/da_kings_men/?p=6171#comment-9862 "Did they report the kids...." what kids? "Did they report the kids…." what kids?

]]> By: larry d. http://www.ohiomm.com/blogs/da_kings_men/2009/09/19/an-acorn-falls-from-the-tree/comment-page-2/#comment-9859 larry d. Sat, 26 Sep 2009 15:15:34 +0000 http://www.ohiomm.com/blogs/da_kings_men/?p=6171#comment-9859 Why were they fired if they were just trying to gather info for the authorities, walt? Did they report the kids before the videos were released? Why were they fired if they were just trying to gather info for the authorities, walt? Did they report the kids before the videos were released?

]]> By: averagejoe5 http://www.ohiomm.com/blogs/da_kings_men/2009/09/19/an-acorn-falls-from-the-tree/comment-page-2/#comment-9850 averagejoe5 Fri, 25 Sep 2009 21:13:00 +0000 http://www.ohiomm.com/blogs/da_kings_men/?p=6171#comment-9850 Whatever Walt. Whatever Walt.

]]> By: walter http://www.ohiomm.com/blogs/da_kings_men/2009/09/19/an-acorn-falls-from-the-tree/comment-page-2/#comment-9847 walter Fri, 25 Sep 2009 21:03:52 +0000 http://www.ohiomm.com/blogs/da_kings_men/?p=6171#comment-9847 joe sez......."That's great for you and tory Walt however you aren't them and they aren't you and that isn't what they were doing." that's exactly what they are doing......that's exactly what most responsible people would do....you, King and dd are like the three monkeys.....see no evil, hear no evil, speak no evil. Except of course you got a Masters degree......that would make it two monkeys and a baboon most were fired the day after the videos appeared......not a whole lot of time to investigate You gotta remember, republican ped0file protector John B0ehner let republican Mark Foley get away with his crap for a while before he finally did something. Actually the only thing B0ehner did was buckpass the whole load of steaming crap onto Hastert and throwing him under the bus. joe sez……."That's great for you and tory Walt however you aren't them and they aren't you and that isn't what they were doing."

that's exactly what they are doing……that's exactly what most responsible people would do….you, King and dd are like the three monkeys…..see no evil, hear no evil, speak no evil. Except of course you got a Masters degree……that would make it two monkeys and a baboon

most were fired the day after the videos appeared……not a whole lot of time to investigate
You gotta remember, republican ped0file protector John B0ehner let republican Mark Foley get away with his crap for a while before he finally did something. Actually the only thing B0ehner did was buckpass the whole load of steaming crap onto Hastert and throwing him under the bus.

]]> By: frank http://www.ohiomm.com/blogs/da_kings_men/2009/09/19/an-acorn-falls-from-the-tree/comment-page-2/#comment-9845 frank Fri, 25 Sep 2009 18:12:54 +0000 http://www.ohiomm.com/blogs/da_kings_men/?p=6171#comment-9845 Mr. King, Until some other institution can supplant the government's ability to aid those less fortunate, I prefer that the government actually does try to help people, so I accept your description of me as a liberal. But I see very few liberals and even fewer conservatives in government today, and even those numbers have been shrinking. Principles, whether liberal or conservative, are an impediment to success in the political arena these days. The two major components of political success are the ability to raise money and the logistical support of one of the two parties whose success is also determined by their ability to raise money. What it means is that we are left with two wings of the same party, each beholden to the same moneyed class. Our choices as voters has, for so long, been to decide the lesser of two evils, that the liberal Democrat and the conservative Republican should have been put on the endangered species list 30 years ago. As someone has pointed out, when you choose between two evils, you are left with evil. The finance industry bailout should serve as a perfect example. The industry, after getting everything they sought from both wings of the Corporate party, self destructed, the product of their own economic hubris. The "conservatives" of the Republican wing, rather than letting these institutions fail as their laissez faire philosophy would dictate, came up with the plan to save these unfortunates from themselves. The "liberals" of the Democratic wing, having repealed the regulations (at the behest of the industry) which would have prevented this calamity, carried out the plan, somehow "finding" money unavailable for spending on the poor. For me, things have gotten to the point where I can no longer see any value in either defending or castigating one of the two wings. Unfortunately, like politics, that is what these blogs seem to be about. Good luck. Mr. King,
Until some other institution can supplant the government's ability to aid those less fortunate, I prefer that the government actually does try to help people, so I accept your description of me as a liberal. But I see very few liberals and even fewer conservatives in government today, and even those numbers have been shrinking. Principles, whether liberal or conservative, are an impediment to success in the political arena these days. The two major components of political success are the ability to raise money and the logistical support of one of the two parties whose success is also determined by their ability to raise money. What it means is that we are left with two wings of the same party, each beholden to the same moneyed class. Our choices as voters has, for so long, been to decide the lesser of two evils, that the liberal Democrat and the conservative Republican should have been put on the endangered species list 30 years ago. As someone has pointed out, when you choose between two evils, you are left with evil.
The finance industry bailout should serve as a perfect example. The industry, after getting everything they sought from both wings of the Corporate party, self destructed, the product of their own economic hubris. The "conservatives" of the Republican wing, rather than letting these institutions fail as their laissez faire philosophy would dictate, came up with the plan to save these unfortunates from themselves. The "liberals" of the Democratic wing, having repealed the regulations (at the behest of the industry) which would have prevented this calamity, carried out the plan, somehow "finding" money unavailable for spending on the poor.
For me, things have gotten to the point where I can no longer see any value in either defending or castigating one of the two wings. Unfortunately, like politics, that is what these blogs seem to be about. Good luck.

]]> By: Da King http://www.ohiomm.com/blogs/da_kings_men/2009/09/19/an-acorn-falls-from-the-tree/comment-page-1/#comment-9840 Da King Fri, 25 Sep 2009 11:40:41 +0000 http://www.ohiomm.com/blogs/da_kings_men/?p=6171#comment-9840 frank says, "we are broke and that government policy, domestic and foreign, is designed to maintain an imperial stranglehold over people" Then how can you be a liberal Democrat, frank ? They want to increase the stranglehold over the people more than anyone else. It's like falling in love with your kidnapper. frank says, "we are broke and that government policy, domestic and foreign, is designed to maintain an imperial stranglehold over people"

Then how can you be a liberal Democrat, frank ? They want to increase the stranglehold over the people more than anyone else. It's like falling in love with your kidnapper.

]]> By: averagejoe5 http://www.ohiomm.com/blogs/da_kings_men/2009/09/19/an-acorn-falls-from-the-tree/comment-page-1/#comment-9838 averagejoe5 Fri, 25 Sep 2009 07:02:14 +0000 http://www.ohiomm.com/blogs/da_kings_men/?p=6171#comment-9838 ……""I know that, if I were in that situation, I would talk with them, gain their trust, find out everything I could……" That's great for you and tory Walt however you aren't them and they aren't you and that isn't what they were doing. They were fired because they were conspiring to break the law. ……""I know that, if I were in that situation, I would talk with them, gain their trust, find out everything I could……"

That's great for you and tory Walt however you aren't them and they aren't you and that isn't what they were doing. They were fired because they were conspiring to break the law.

]]> By: larry d. http://www.ohiomm.com/blogs/da_kings_men/2009/09/19/an-acorn-falls-from-the-tree/comment-page-1/#comment-9837 larry d. Fri, 25 Sep 2009 02:09:31 +0000 http://www.ohiomm.com/blogs/da_kings_men/?p=6171#comment-9837 You crack me up, frank. Don't feel humiliated. You crack me up, frank. Don't feel humiliated.

]]> By: frank http://www.ohiomm.com/blogs/da_kings_men/2009/09/19/an-acorn-falls-from-the-tree/comment-page-1/#comment-9836 frank Fri, 25 Sep 2009 01:26:56 +0000 http://www.ohiomm.com/blogs/da_kings_men/?p=6171#comment-9836 larry d., We both know that your "debunking" abilities are limited to dragging your pathetic ass out of bed. If you had even a modicum of introspection, you would notice that your ad hominem attacks appear to be the projection of a small, deservedly insecure man. So take your worry, dismay, and your parrot, and find another way to boost your self-esteem. larry d.,
We both know that your "debunking" abilities are limited to dragging your pathetic ass out of bed. If you had even a modicum of introspection, you would notice that your ad hominem attacks appear to be the projection of a small, deservedly insecure man. So take your worry, dismay, and your parrot, and find another way to boost your self-esteem.

]]> By: larry d. http://www.ohiomm.com/blogs/da_kings_men/2009/09/19/an-acorn-falls-from-the-tree/comment-page-1/#comment-9809 larry d. Thu, 24 Sep 2009 12:07:15 +0000 http://www.ohiomm.com/blogs/da_kings_men/?p=6171#comment-9809 Thanks for checking in, frank. I was worried that you had become dismayed because all your parrot talking points had been debunked. Thanks for checking in, frank. I was worried that you had become dismayed because all your parrot talking points had been debunked.

]]> By: frank http://www.ohiomm.com/blogs/da_kings_men/2009/09/19/an-acorn-falls-from-the-tree/comment-page-1/#comment-9807 frank Thu, 24 Sep 2009 07:02:31 +0000 http://www.ohiomm.com/blogs/da_kings_men/?p=6171#comment-9807 larry d., I'm not the least bit embarassed by anything I have posted. I simply get too disgusted by the inanity of what passes for political discourse from time to time and decide to spend my time in more productive ways. Too many posters at both of these blogs seem more interested in arguing over which party is more corrupt and less representative of people's needs. It's as if the subject was sports with each poster defending their favorite team. The reality is that they are both corrupt and represent only their moneyed sponsors. These arguments only serve as a distraction much in the same way as a magician uses misdirection to fool his audience. In actuality, we are the victims of our own myths about this country. We see ourselves in a Norman Rockwell type of environment where our horizons are limitless and our goals are pure and noble, where neither is true. Unfortunately, neither party is willing to deliver the bad news to the public that we are broke and that government policy, domestic and foreign, is designed to maintain an imperial stranglehold over people within and outside of this country. You seem to have enough time upon your hands to act as the resident troll on these sites. Your snarky comments shed no light on the subject, and it is sometimes tempting to engage you as you tend to lead with your chin. But it is a waste of my time and just leaves me feeling slightly soiled. So, I wish you the best of luck on your continuing efforts at trying to make yourself feel clever. larry d.,
I'm not the least bit embarassed by anything I have posted. I simply get too disgusted by the inanity of what passes for political discourse from time to time and decide to spend my time in more productive ways. Too many posters at both of these blogs seem more interested in arguing over which party is more corrupt and less representative of people's needs. It's as if the subject was sports with each poster defending their favorite team. The reality is that they are both corrupt and represent only their moneyed sponsors. These arguments only serve as a distraction much in the same way as a magician uses misdirection to fool his audience. In actuality, we are the victims of our own myths about this country. We see ourselves in a Norman Rockwell type of environment where our horizons are limitless and our goals are pure and noble, where neither is true. Unfortunately, neither party is willing to deliver the bad news to the public that we are broke and that government policy, domestic and foreign, is designed to maintain an imperial stranglehold over people within and outside of this country.
You seem to have enough time upon your hands to act as the resident troll on these sites. Your snarky comments shed no light on the subject, and it is sometimes tempting to engage you as you tend to lead with your chin. But it is a waste of my time and just leaves me feeling slightly soiled. So, I wish you the best of luck on your continuing efforts at trying to make yourself feel clever.

]]> By: walter http://www.ohiomm.com/blogs/da_kings_men/2009/09/19/an-acorn-falls-from-the-tree/comment-page-1/#comment-9802 walter Thu, 24 Sep 2009 00:55:45 +0000 http://www.ohiomm.com/blogs/da_kings_men/?p=6171#comment-9802 "Who's the Pimp?" http://www.counterpunch.org/mokhiber09222009.html from the story...."Earlier this month, a Pfizer unit pled guilty to a felony in connection with a major health care fraud and paid $2.3 billion in fines." That's not a fine....that's a tax "Who's the Pimp?"

http://www.counterpunch.org/mokhiber09222009.html

from the story…."Earlier this month, a Pfizer unit pled guilty to a felony in connection with a major health care fraud and paid $2.3 billion in fines." That's not a fine….that's a tax

]]> By: walter http://www.ohiomm.com/blogs/da_kings_men/2009/09/19/an-acorn-falls-from-the-tree/comment-page-1/#comment-9798 walter Wed, 23 Sep 2009 23:27:20 +0000 http://www.ohiomm.com/blogs/da_kings_men/?p=6171#comment-9798 like I said joe, I'm with tory on this one......""I know that, if I were in that situation, I would talk with them, gain their trust, find out everything I could……" that's exactly what I would have done sorry like I said joe, I'm with tory on this one……""I know that, if I were in that situation, I would talk with them, gain their trust, find out everything I could……"

that's exactly what I would have done

sorry

]]> By: averagejoe5 http://www.ohiomm.com/blogs/da_kings_men/2009/09/19/an-acorn-falls-from-the-tree/comment-page-1/#comment-9796 averagejoe5 Wed, 23 Sep 2009 22:59:43 +0000 http://www.ohiomm.com/blogs/da_kings_men/?p=6171#comment-9796 Amazing. First they [ACORN] support the murder of 12m innocent black children through abortion. Now they support pedophilia, sex slavery, and tax evasion. Just bringin it to your level Walt. Amazing. First they [ACORN] support the murder of 12m innocent black children through abortion. Now they support pedophilia, sex slavery, and tax evasion. Just bringin it to your level Walt.

]]> By: larry d. http://www.ohiomm.com/blogs/da_kings_men/2009/09/19/an-acorn-falls-from-the-tree/comment-page-1/#comment-9788 larry d. Wed, 23 Sep 2009 21:41:47 +0000 http://www.ohiomm.com/blogs/da_kings_men/?p=6171#comment-9788 You're still posting, walt? I thought you would have quit in embarassment by now, like frank. You're still posting, walt? I thought you would have quit in embarassment by now, like frank.

]]> By: walter http://www.ohiomm.com/blogs/da_kings_men/2009/09/19/an-acorn-falls-from-the-tree/comment-page-1/#comment-9787 walter Wed, 23 Sep 2009 21:11:45 +0000 http://www.ohiomm.com/blogs/da_kings_men/?p=6171#comment-9787 tory said……"I know that, if I were in that situation, I would talk with them, gain their trust, find out everything I could……" then sez.........."I guess I still fail to see the basis of your arguments against what I think would be the obvious thing to do if confronted with people wanting me to help them commit criminal activity." I'm not arguing......I think you are absolutely correct. King says you are wrong. tory sez...." Indeed, if they were that fearful, why didn't they call cops as soon as O'Keefe and Giles left or, in some cases, at all?" They didn't call because they figured that were yanking their cranks why were they fired? That's called republicanism.......guilty until proven innocent......I wouldn't think you would question that at all. That's the way you guys roll. tory said……"I know that, if I were in that situation, I would talk with them, gain their trust, find out everything I could……"

then sez………."I guess I still fail to see the basis of your arguments against what I think would be the obvious thing to do if confronted with people wanting me to help them commit criminal activity." I'm not arguing……I think you are absolutely correct. King says you are wrong.

tory sez…." Indeed, if they were that fearful, why didn't they call cops as soon as O'Keefe and Giles left or, in some cases, at all?" They didn't call because they figured that were yanking their cranks

why were they fired? That's called republicanism…….guilty until proven innocent……I wouldn't think you would question that at all. That's the way you guys roll.

]]> By: averagejoe5 http://www.ohiomm.com/blogs/da_kings_men/2009/09/19/an-acorn-falls-from-the-tree/comment-page-1/#comment-9768 averagejoe5 Wed, 23 Sep 2009 11:08:09 +0000 http://www.ohiomm.com/blogs/da_kings_men/?p=6171#comment-9768 Good video. How can that not make sense to everyone? Good video. How can that not make sense to everyone?

]]> By: Da King http://www.ohiomm.com/blogs/da_kings_men/2009/09/19/an-acorn-falls-from-the-tree/comment-page-1/#comment-9765 Da King Wed, 23 Sep 2009 10:18:16 +0000 http://www.ohiomm.com/blogs/da_kings_men/?p=6171#comment-9765 joe, Right on the money. ACORN was one of the organizations central in pushing banks to lend money to people who couldn't show the proper means for repayment. No big surprise that so many of those loans defaulted. ACORN was one of the organizations central to calling those banks racists, which is HOW they got the banks to lend the money. ACORN, in addition to being many other things, are also extortionists, using phony charges of racism as it's weapon. Check out this video from ZoNation: http://www.pjtv.com/v/2467 joe,
Right on the money. ACORN was one of the organizations central in pushing banks to lend money to people who couldn't show the proper means for repayment. No big surprise that so many of those loans defaulted. ACORN was one of the organizations central to calling those banks racists, which is HOW they got the banks to lend the money. ACORN, in addition to being many other things, are also extortionists, using phony charges of racism as it's weapon.

Check out this video from ZoNation:

http://www.pjtv.com/v/2467

]]> By: Da King http://www.ohiomm.com/blogs/da_kings_men/2009/09/19/an-acorn-falls-from-the-tree/comment-page-1/#comment-9764 Da King Wed, 23 Sep 2009 10:11:30 +0000 http://www.ohiomm.com/blogs/da_kings_men/?p=6171#comment-9764 Rev says, "ACORN did not "on several occasions openly assist"….an "underage prostitution racket." Uh, it's on VIDEOTAPE. walter says, "all I am saying is the reason ACORN even engaged these jerks was to find out what these assholes were up to. " Then why were the employees fired, and why did ACORN's CIO Bertha Lewis publicly condemn what those employees did ? Why did Congress cut off ACORN's funding ? Why has Obama called for an investigation ? More importantly, why are you and the Reverend making things up ? Rev says, "ACORN did not "on several occasions openly assist"….an "underage prostitution racket."

Uh, it's on VIDEOTAPE.

walter says, "all I am saying is the reason ACORN even engaged these jerks was to find out what these assholes were up to. "

Then why were the employees fired, and why did ACORN's CIO Bertha Lewis publicly condemn what those employees did ? Why did Congress cut off ACORN's funding ? Why has Obama called for an investigation ?

More importantly, why are you and the Reverend making things up ?

]]> By: Tory Bug http://www.ohiomm.com/blogs/da_kings_men/2009/09/19/an-acorn-falls-from-the-tree/comment-page-1/#comment-9757 Tory Bug Wed, 23 Sep 2009 00:59:28 +0000 http://www.ohiomm.com/blogs/da_kings_men/?p=6171#comment-9757 Sorry I didn't get back to you earlier, walter. I was up last night because I was in pain, basically. That meant I haven't gotten sleep in quite awhile, haven't been on top of my game today, no time for blogging. I guess I still fail to see the basis of your arguments against what I think would be the obvious thing to do if confronted with people wanting me to help them commit criminal activity. The people on this video were obviously unafraid of O'Keefe and Giles and were calling in others to advise them, anyway. Your 'fear' argument is a weak one, considering that the ACORN folks seemingly had no problem leaving them alone with others who worked in the office. Indeed, if they were that fearful, why didn't they call cops as soon as O'Keefe and Giles left or, in some cases, at all? You're tripping all over yourself trying to make excuses from people who are inexcusable. Wouldn't it make you ask questions if some other non-profit agency were caught giving advice on how to evade the law, not just at one office, but at several? I think this calls for more than an internal review, and certainly more than a shrug and the benefit of the doubt by the American taxpayer, who has contributed a great deal of money to their cause. Let's just have an independent party investigate them. If these were only a few bad apples, America will stop doubting ACORN, but if this type of behavior is systemic, let's find out and shut them down for good. Sorry I didn't get back to you earlier, walter. I was up last night because I was in pain, basically. That meant I haven't gotten sleep in quite awhile, haven't been on top of my game today, no time for blogging.

I guess I still fail to see the basis of your arguments against what I think would be the obvious thing to do if confronted with people wanting me to help them commit criminal activity. The people on this video were obviously unafraid of O'Keefe and Giles and were calling in others to advise them, anyway. Your 'fear' argument is a weak one, considering that the ACORN folks seemingly had no problem leaving them alone with others who worked in the office. Indeed, if they were that fearful, why didn't they call cops as soon as O'Keefe and Giles left or, in some cases, at all?

You're tripping all over yourself trying to make excuses from people who are inexcusable. Wouldn't it make you ask questions if some other non-profit agency were caught giving advice on how to evade the law, not just at one office, but at several? I think this calls for more than an internal review, and certainly more than a shrug and the benefit of the doubt by the American taxpayer, who has contributed a great deal of money to their cause. Let's just have an independent party investigate them. If these were only a few bad apples, America will stop doubting ACORN, but if this type of behavior is systemic, let's find out and shut them down for good.

]]> By: walter http://www.ohiomm.com/blogs/da_kings_men/2009/09/19/an-acorn-falls-from-the-tree/comment-page-1/#comment-9750 walter Tue, 22 Sep 2009 19:42:07 +0000 http://www.ohiomm.com/blogs/da_kings_men/?p=6171#comment-9750 from tory's link....."Don't call the police because I'm gonna be a lawyer," O'Keefe said in the video. now there's a punchline looking for a lawyer joke from tory's link….."Don't call the police because I'm gonna be a lawyer," O'Keefe said in the video.

now there's a punchline looking for a lawyer joke

]]> By: walter http://www.ohiomm.com/blogs/da_kings_men/2009/09/19/an-acorn-falls-from-the-tree/comment-page-1/#comment-9748 walter Tue, 22 Sep 2009 18:59:55 +0000 http://www.ohiomm.com/blogs/da_kings_men/?p=6171#comment-9748 King, I'm not making excuses.......all I am saying is the reason ACORN even engaged these jerks was to find out what these assholes were up to. like tory said......"I know that, if I were in that situation, I would talk with them, gain their trust, find out everything I could......" here's some people trying to find out about an underage prostitution ring and you critisize them for that? Van Jones was wrong when he called republicans assholes.....republicans are MUCH worse King, I'm not making excuses…….all I am saying is the reason ACORN even engaged these jerks was to find out what these assholes were up to.

like tory said……"I know that, if I were in that situation, I would talk with them, gain their trust, find out everything I could……"

here's some people trying to find out about an underage prostitution ring and you critisize them for that? Van Jones was wrong when he called republicans assholes…..republicans are MUCH worse

]]> By: averagejoe5 http://www.ohiomm.com/blogs/da_kings_men/2009/09/19/an-acorn-falls-from-the-tree/comment-page-1/#comment-9747 averagejoe5 Tue, 22 Sep 2009 18:24:37 +0000 http://www.ohiomm.com/blogs/da_kings_men/?p=6171#comment-9747 Conservatives need to be screaming more about these banksters especially since most of them are Democrats. Keep sympathizing with the criminals Rev. This is very important to your party. Promoting the underage pediphile whore business isn't the only thing they were caught doing. In fact if you can look deep enough you will find that they are a big influence with the "Banksters" as you call them. Conservatives need to be screaming more about these banksters especially since most of them are Democrats.

Keep sympathizing with the criminals Rev. This is very important to your party. Promoting the underage pediphile whore business isn't the only thing they were caught doing. In fact if you can look deep enough you will find that they are a big influence with the "Banksters" as you call them.

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