Well, why don't you help me out then ? Go through my original post and point out my "republican propaganda and outright lies" about cap-and-trade. Just a quick listing of them all. Lord knows, I don't want to be a propagandist and liar.

As far as your 1st post. No one knows how much Cap and Trade will drive up costs. If it drives up costs in FL by $1000 and here by $3000. Is that an avg of $2000?

We are a coal energy producing state. Doesn't it make sense that our power will increase more. Or isn't that what King said? Do you really think they actually know? Do you think that they may be politicians so they may be lying to us a little just to soften the blow? Many of the energy systems ie solar and wind haven't been tested or studied enough to know exactly what the impact will be. I have already seen that the govt is going to subsidize energy in some areas. That is a crock.

people need good information to make informed choices. They CAN NOT make informed choices using the republican propaganda and outright lies that you push.

those are my conservative principles.

a republican propagandist saying libertarians are against cap and trade has absolutly no credibility. none….zero….zip

And for the fifth time or so, what are your conservative principles ? They sure aren't apparent to me, and you refuse to discuss them.

Libertarians are against cap-and-trade, for the reasons I listed in my post. Nice try.

King……conservatives and libertarians don't promote republican lies and propaganda like you do. Conservatives simply don't need to depend on lies.

Cats are dogs, birds are rabbits, up is down, and right is left in Walterworld.

what, being a republican propagandist and repeating republican dis-information is a libertarian principle?

King, do libertarians a favor……don't ever again claim you're a libertarian. Just keep carrying water for your republican mis-informers.

Richard Cranium 1420 AKA ptd sez………."Act like your boy Obama….." That wasn't a slip was it Cranium?

if you're a scientist I'm Warren Buffett……..of course if YOU were Warren Buffett you wouldn't be saying Obama is the right man for the job…..you would say Obama is the right BOY for the job

I'd like to amend me calling you a creep to calling you a racist creep

He says we should give this Crap and Tax thing a chance to work and he knows as little about all that is buried in it as the rest of us do. After giving it a chance and driving other businesses out of the country it will be too late to give something else a chance. Wouldn't it be nice to get him to look at things without those red colored lenses?

Somehow Rev Red and others like him really seem to believe that all business can be carried on better with government ownership.

You mean like GM and Chrysler ? Just the opposite was true in their case. Their labor costs bankrupted them.

The thing you consistently overlook is, there won't be ANY jobs if the companies can't compete and go out of business. The world isn't some utopian fantasy. There is reality to deal with.

There are some assumptions that we have to agree on to tighten the scope of our analysis. For example, we need to agree that C&T will raise energy prices, even slightly.

I agree that many industries are heavy energy users. Usually not to the extent of the metals industry, but you're right, this is going to hurt many industries, not just mine.

Also, everyone IS operating within thin margins, the majority of which have had to lay people off just to get back to barely profitable. That means that any additional costs to the companies will directly lead to more layoffs. There isn't the built in buffer zone anymore. Additional costs to companys and job loss are nearly one:one now.

After that point in your post is where you go all Obama on us. Change. Ingenuity. We'll all get through this. Everyone must make sacrifices. I don't buy it. Not only do I not think it's necessary (all your examples were NOT government mandates, so this is different), but I also don't think that there's some ridiculously efficient process out there that we all haven't thought of.

I know that may shatter some ideals of human ingenuity, but as a scientist let me tell you that we are already squeezing the last bits of efficiency out of what we can do. Mandating that we figure it out isn't going to make it happen, especially not in the short term when people will continue to lose jobs.

That's why you liberals better be DAM sure about this climate change thing. I hope you realize the cost associated with your C&T idea. Could we hold off on the energy legislation? If there's another way of doing things just on the horizon, can we not just let it happen naturally?

And if, like in another thread, you believe that this is all worth it so long as we "decrease our dependence on oil", I hope you realize that your cutting the rest of us off at the knees for it.

"Federal Cap-and-trade might push us over the edge. Our industry is a large energy user with razor thin margins as it is."

It might. And then maybe not….I mean, right? Lots of industries are large energy users. Lots of industries are (especially right now) operating on razor thin margins.

This is a time for major change in America. We're way past due. Lots of stuff may change. But it's nothing new, really. Think of all the rubber and steel wokers who saw their lives disrupted by a "rush to the bottom", (still going on), to find the cheapest labor prices. Consider the millions of jobs eliminated through outsourcing and the millions more that will be outsourced in the future.

I know that is of little consolation….but, I think, it does provide perspective.

you pal are just simply dishonest

creep

Please see June 30 @8:45am regarding how any price increase from Cap-and-trade is going to severly hurt the primary metals industry.

Also, it's become apparent by your lastest posts that you are a child.

Act like your boy Obama and say vague things, like my company will overcome this through efficiency and the power of american ingenuity.

and King is of course a libertarian that regugitates republican propaganda…..now you got me laughing

The libs don't care how many people get hurt over this. That isn't even a consideration to them. There are polar bears to save.

Stupid liberals, theoretical, never practical. Their ideas are never ever wrong, even when their execution fails… it's just that they haven't done enough yet.

Talk about your tin foil headware.

A conservative who supports Media Matters, handmaidens of George Soros. Hmmm. Whatever you say.

And I'm a Libertarian who believes in an all-powerful centralized federal government, lol.