Getting a handle on Varejao rumors
Posted June 19th, 2008 by admin
There has been an uptick in Anderson Varejao rumors bouncing around the last couple of days. Today, ESPN’s Chad Ford floated one involving the Golden State Warriors. Earlier this week, Beacon Journal columnist Patrick McManamon wrote an excellent column summing up Varejao’s situation.
So with all that out there, let me tell you what I know about what has been going on.
–The Cavs have had trade talks with at least five teams about Varejao. But these talks have three sides, the Cavs, the potential trading partner and Varejao’s agent, Dan Fegan. Because Andy has to give permission to be traded before Dec. 5 (a stipulation when a player has an offer sheet matched by his team), he must be in the loop before a deal can be done. This permission will be given (he cannot be traded to the Bobcats under any circumstances until Dec.) only if Fegan likes the chances of Varejao getting big minutes and having an important role at his new destination. The reason is this is Varejao’s contract year essentially and a big season would mean a chance at the big deal Andy has wanted for a year. I also know that at least one trading partner has already been told “no” by Fegan. I do not know which team, but keep in mind as the Cavs are linked to the Milwaukee Bucks in trade rumors that Fegan also represents Yi Jianlian and probably would not like Varejao and Yi fighting for minutes with one another.
–Because of all these moving parts — there are three different sides able to pitch trades — any deal involving Varejao will be difficult to pull off right now. The Cavs do not have to trade him and they may wait and let the Dec. 5 deadline pass so they have more freedom. But obviously there is a market for Varejao and with the draft coming up, there’s an uptick in trying to get things done.
–The Cavs were pleased with how professionally Andy handled playing with Ben Wallace and even went to him and thanked him at the end of the season. But it is clear to both sides that Andy was not happy yielding crunch time minutes to Wallace and that is an issue that may become problematic next season when Varejao starts feeling the heat of playing another contract. With that in mind and the fear of losing Andy for nothing and/or going another 15 rounds with Fegan next summer, it is easy to see why the Cavs are open to trading their only big man under 30.
–There are a number of players the Cavs like in this draft. If anything, they are looking to move up in the draft or get a second pick instead of trading out as rumors have suggested. In addition, unless there is another rock solid plan in place, it is doubtful the Cavs would only trade Varejao unless they were getting another big man in return. It is questionable whether they can get an immediately contributing big with the 19th pick and losing Varejao would leave a huge hole because he is the team’s only legit backup center.
–I’ll have more on the draft over the weekend or early next week.
June 19th, 2008 at 7:47 pm
Wright is a promising player with upside, but I don’t like our pick going, as rumored on ESPN, without some other compensation coming our way, at least a second round pick.
June 19th, 2008 at 9:15 pm
Brian - hopefully, you comment on a few guys….CDR, Brandon Rush, Courtney Lee and M. Speights. All seem to have their flaws but bring something to the table both on defense and offensive.
June 19th, 2008 at 10:08 pm
There is no way I would make the Brandon Wright trade UNLESS LeBron approves it. Here is my reasoning; that will mean Wright has been traded twice in his rookie year and we don’t have a good track record of finding diamonds in the ruff. If LeBron has played with Wright or has watched him and believes he has potential then I would hold my breath and take a chance. I might be willing to take a chance in a one for one swap Varejao for Wright but adding the 19th pick would be way too much. (Anybody remember Yuri Welch?) I can’t say I remember much about Brandon Wright’s game except I remember he was drafted on potential and NOT production!
June 19th, 2008 at 10:39 pm
Four Aces,
I don’t know about the others but Brian has spoken highly about Brandon Rush and thinks he would be a great pick for the Cavs.
June 19th, 2008 at 10:47 pm
I agree Landofcleve. This is supposed to be a deep draft this year and I think we could get a player with as much potential as Brandan Wright with the 19th pick. To give up AV and the 19th pick for him would be foolish in my opinion, unless we throw in Wally’s expiring contract and GS throws in Barron Davis or something.
June 19th, 2008 at 10:50 pm
The deal on ESPN.com is absurd. Why on earth would we trade Andy AND the pick for Wright, who had a barely passable rookie season? Makes absolutely no sense.
June 19th, 2008 at 11:10 pm
If it comes down to Ferry has to play hardball with Fegan, let it be known that if they hold up any deals they will limit his minutes and wont trade him after Dec 5th. This is getting out of hand, an agent should not have this much power over an organization, holding up deals? Seriously, if it comes down to it make an example out of Anderson.
June 20th, 2008 at 12:33 am
Don’t do it Warriors!!!!We would not want a flopper like Varajao, does not fit the system…. Brandon Wright didn’t play because Nelly doesn’t like to play rookies, but was good when he played… all I gotta say is 7′4″ wingspan
June 20th, 2008 at 12:52 am
“It is questionable whether they can get an immediately contributing big with the 19th pick and losing Varejao would leave a huge hole because he is the team’s only legit backup center.”
Isn’t Big Ben a legitimate Backup Centre?? Or did I imagine all his time in Detroit?
June 20th, 2008 at 1:38 am
James, Big Ben is illegitimate because he’s so undersized. Even in Detroit, Rasheed would guard longer bigs, leaving Ben to roam and block shots from the weakside. He’s played plenty of center, but he shouldn’t.
June 20th, 2008 at 1:40 am
Fegan should be beaten to death. He’s a terrible agent who has already put a huge dent in Varejao’s career. Varejao is an idiot for not firing him last year. Get rid of Varejao in a package deal with Sczerbiak, Snow’s contract to Milwaukee for Redd and Villanueva. We can give them the 19th pick too.
June 20th, 2008 at 2:08 am
Wright actually performed well in his limited minutes, his PER was around 17. He is very athletic and has a lot of potential.And Wallace is way to short to play center and isn’t athletic enough anymore to make up the difference like he used to
June 20th, 2008 at 3:38 am
Ricky and Warrior27 are right. Don’t underestimate Wrights potential. He only played limited minutes - that he got any was a minor miracle, because Don Nelson doesn’t play rookies. He played very well when he got on the floor late in the year. He’s very athletic and has, as mentioned, a 7′4″ wingspan. Golden State dealt Jason Richardson for the opportunity to draft him. I’d love to see him on the Cavs, and straight up for Varejao doesn’t seem like a bad trade at all to me. We’d be lucky to find a player like Wright at 19th overall.
June 20th, 2008 at 8:20 am
Please, can we eliminate the word “wingspan” from the basketball vocabulary? The chump with huge “upside” and “potential” that Ferry got from New Orleans also had a gargantuan “wingspan.” Talk about laying a egg. So unless you’re a pet macaw, you don’t have a wingspan.
By the way, I noticed that one of Big BW’s ex-Wacky Rumors of the Week, the fab Juan Carlos Navarro, has gone back to play in Spain. What a crushing loss for the NBA.
June 20th, 2008 at 8:57 am
Fegan is a cancer on the league and should be forced to fight to the death with Scott Boras.
June 20th, 2008 at 9:01 am
@alan t.: Wingspan matters. It’s the reason Kevin Garnett is unblockable and the reason Kevin Durant’s arms drag on the ground when he walks.
Plus, look at Ben Wallace. The dude is 6′7″ but has freakishly long arms; His length gives him the ability to disrupt plays and guard guys 5 inches taller, fro notwithstanding.
June 20th, 2008 at 9:14 am
To the person who wrote, “Why on earth would we trade Andy AND the pick for Wright, who had a barely passable rookie season? Makes absolutely no sense.” Actually, it makes a lot of sense. Gilbert & Co. are a squad of stiffs way over the salary cap. I think it’s just another goofy rumor being tossed out there, but consider that after taking the luxury tax into account, Varejao is actually costing Gilbert and his cronies about $12 million over the course of a year. So they can actually save about $10 million by unloading Varejao’s contract in return for somebody getting paid rookie scale. That’s smart business.
June 20th, 2008 at 9:56 am
I would NEVER do the Verajo for Wright trade. I’ve seen him play he’s horrible. He won’t fit good w/ Cleveland. I think they should try to draft CDR of Hibbert out of Georgetown. And mabey wait until Dec. 5 and make a big trade and include Verajo. Or just trade Verajo for a decent big man that will fit in Cleveland and not be too much $$$
June 20th, 2008 at 10:18 am
Thanks for the updates BW. I was wondering when you would reappear as the voice of reason for us Cavalier fans. That is an interesting scenario you laid out with Fegan representing Yi in Milwaukee. It’s discouraging to think that it could prevent us from making a move for Redd since AV is one of our only young tradeable assets. At least we have a lot of expiring contracts to fall back on, I just don’t want to have to wait until the trading deadline again to see a roster shuffle.
http://clevelandchamps.blogspot.com
June 20th, 2008 at 10:38 am
Ya know “Landofcleve” makes a very good observation that Brandan Wright wasn’t very good his rooke year and I think that would be one of the worst trades ever sure Anderson has always been a clutch player for us but he is valuble in a trade and honestly thats what it is about “making your team better”. And losing our 19th pick is horrible when we can look at players like Brandon Rush and Chris Douglas-Roberts why would we do that. And I think we should all listen to Lebron he always knows about players he said in the 11 player trade we should pick up Delonte West in the trade and he has turned out amazingly for us thats what we need.
June 20th, 2008 at 10:42 am
Also think that Anderson verajao and Wally would be a good trade for someone like Micheal Redd and although Yi wouldnt be happy losing minutes well then he’s not a team player and honestly he thinks to much of himself and I wouldnt know why he really hasn’t proved himself for how good he thinks he really is and Andy has lost minutes to Big Ben so why cant Yi live with it.
June 20th, 2008 at 11:04 am
windhorst is alive!
i’m with alan, “wingspan” has got to go. so does “getting thrown under the bus”, “stepping up”, “bringing your A game” and a million under misused words and bad cliches.
hey brian, whatever happened to those year-end grades? not that it’s a big deal because losing in the second round is all the grade i require.
June 20th, 2008 at 12:30 pm
Thanks for the posting. I wonder whom Cavs are considering as their first-round pick player. I think that they do not have workout with someone who deserves 19th pick. Are they really going to trade their pick?
June 20th, 2008 at 12:37 pm
Thoughts:
- Figures, the first trade idea I actually get excited about, and Chris Mullin flatly denies it. I really hope that Danny Ferry was trying to make this trade happen, because it meant that he had identified a player who might currently be undervalued, but could be poised to make a huge leap next year.
- Wright’s PER was really high for a rookie, 17.29. Yes, he was only averaging about 10 minutes a game, but he was putting up numbers when he was on the floor, which is rare for guys in their first season in the league. Kevin Durant’s PER last year was 15.84, and Al Horford’s was 14.73. You just don’t see that kind of production in limited minutes from rookies. And I’m sure that Mullin can see the same thing, and that’s why he’s not about to trade Wright for Varejao, or anyone else for that matter.
- I know people around here seem to think that the next Scottie Pippen is waiting there at 19, but a repeat of the Shannon Brown saga is far more likely. I’d rather have Wright’s year of NBA experience than rolling the dice in the Draft.
- Trading Anderson Varejao for another athletic big man is the only way you trade him. I know that Andy was not as effective after his injury, but he came back too quickly. Between his holdout and his injury, he was better than ever, averaging 8.3 ppg and 9.0 rpg in December. And at 25, he is likely to recover all his athleticism. I know the Cavs are tired of dealing with Fegan’s antics, but you don’t weaken the biggest strength of this team (the front line), just to get rid of Fegan.
- Wingspan is a significant attribute when combined with athleticism and good hands. The ability play a little bigger than you are is a factor if you can also get out and run. It’s the reason that Leon Powe was able to contribute at power forward despite the fact that he’s only 6′8”. He was giving those taller Laker bigs fits because he was small enough to go around them, and still long enough to be a factor on the glass. Length is why Tayshaun Prince is on the US Olympic team.
- But if a guy can’t walk and chew gum at the same time, you’re right, wingspan means nothing. And you need to have good hands at the end of those long arms.
- Still don’t like Villanueva and his inability to shoot. 43% isn’t good enough. I’m sick of bricklayers on this team. We practically canonized Joe Smith for actually being able to hit open 12-footers in the playoffs.
- For the record “killer instinct” is the attribute most ripe for retirement.
Go Cavs. Glad to see Brian’s still alive.
Mike C.
June 20th, 2008 at 1:20 pm
Brian, as a former coach and lifetime ballplayer from ohio, i would like to say since moving to akron its been a joy to read all your stuff. Finally a guy who knows what he is talking about. I keep informed from other outside sources, but would like to ask you if there is truly any validity to A. Varejao or anyone or pick along with him going to Milwaukee for Redd. It would seem that a Cavs dream scenario (not to mention to the fans) would be them picking up Redd and adding Elton Brand as well. That would give you a new big 3 in the East; LeBron, Redd, and Brand…and arguably a new big 4 ala former Pistons by throwing Z’s name in with them. Cleveland would then take over the Celtics spot as “Top Dawg” in the east. What are your thoughts?
June 20th, 2008 at 1:45 pm
Varejao isn’t worth what Fegan wants. I’m sick of Fegan, he’s pumping up AV’s head to make him think he’s an all star when he’s nothing more than a role player. Let’s get AV out of here so we never have to deal with all their BS again.
June 20th, 2008 at 2:26 pm
King james ,elton,redd we da best
June 20th, 2008 at 3:34 pm
daniel - how did you see Wright play? His limited action last year or in college? I watched at least 30 Warriors games last year, and barely saw him. I sincerely doubt you’ve seen him enough to put the “terrible” tag on him. And the reality is he had a pretty solid stretch last year for Golden State when he got time.
June 20th, 2008 at 5:44 pm
Well i don’t think i should’ve sayed terrible but i saw him play a little bit in golden state too and college, but what i shouldve sayed is that he’s not good enough to make the Cavs win a finals. I think they should use Verajo to be a key in a bigger trade to get better players than JUST Branden Wright. But you are right I shouldn’t have sayed terrible.
June 20th, 2008 at 6:53 pm
Alan - if saving money is Gilbert’s motivation then he wouldn’t have pulled the trigger on that deal in the first place. He knew what he was getting into then. He didn’t suddenly decide he doesn’t want to pay the luxury tax - so yes, it does NOT make sense to give up the 19th pick, AND one of our few big men, for a guy that is still a huge question mark.
June 20th, 2008 at 7:14 pm
please do not give up andy for Weight. He is a nothing. Let”s see how Andy does during the fall after practicing. We may not want to trade him. Kayb
June 20th, 2008 at 7:38 pm
Brian - good to hear from you heading in to the draft. Where have you been on the Donaghy-Stern scandal? You’re co-author Pluto weighed in (NBA Referee Scandal Still Leaves Unanswered Questions) when will we hear your take?
June 20th, 2008 at 8:51 pm
this team has been known for their weak roster through out the NBA and losing a chump like andy v. is no worst than losing suckona jock,tragic langdon,shannon dourgherty, or any of the rest of those bums on the roster that Lebron has to carry like mohawk jones and elric snow the cav’s who don’t have any scouts to judge talent after all danny distrust having players who’s talents surpass his own. see Lebron in a Knicks uniform soon, will continue to draft sorry assed players or trade weak ones for even weaker ones after all before lebron only Z had talent to stick on anyother nba team.
June 20th, 2008 at 10:02 pm
Tom, sure the saving of money is a driving motivation … if they go farther into the playoffs, then they can have offset those higher salaries. Besides, it’s not like it was for a full season, just the final week of February on. A comparative drop in the bucket. And now they can jack up ticket prices, get the insurance company and the NBA to declare Snow a paraplegic, and there goes $14 million off the books, including luxury tax. Then unload Varejao, and there goes close to $12 million, including luxury tax.
Come on. It’s always about the money. Does anybody really think Gilbert would be giggling like a schoolgirl if they won an NBA title, but the average home attendance was 14,000? Or would he rather be a perennial also-ran like his franchise is now, but have a sellout every game? The answer is obvious.
June 20th, 2008 at 10:04 pm
Milwaukee makes the most sense and they probably look at it like they’re handicapping the Cavs with Redd’s deal… but I wouldnt mind seeing the Cavs dangle AV and their pick to move up, maybe snag a solid point guard. DJ Augustine or someone of that ilk.
Of course, the DREAM scenario would be the Bulls taking the kid from Memphis, the Heat taking OJ Mayo, and Minnesota making a panic deal with the Cavs, ending in Michael Beasley in a Cavs uni. Kevin McHale is obviously a complete moron, so a guy can dream right?
June 20th, 2008 at 10:59 pm
[...] be quiet on this one…. and read this Brian Windhorst on the Cleveland Cavaliers » Blog Archive » Getting a handle on Varejao rumors This was written by THE BEST Cavs beat writer….he knows what he is talking about. Andy is VERY [...]
June 21st, 2008 at 1:08 am
Varejao should not be traded unless they find a center who can rebound or has the heart to hustle as he does. In my opinion, they should trade Ben Wallace instead, and, obviously, other players for a better forward like Horford to free up some salary cap space for the signing of free agents because Varejao provides hustle and energy coming from the bench.
(Or they could trade Ilgauskus + Wally/Pavlovic for, maybe, Okur/Millsap and a bigger shooting guard.)
PS:These are only opinion from my perspective.
June 21st, 2008 at 2:59 am
Good grief, Alan. Find me one owner who doesnt treat his franchise like a business. You act like tickets should be free and they should pass out complimentary BMW’s to the first 500 fans in the arena every game.
See, it all goes hand in hand. Cavs win, superstar everyone pays money to see stays happy, owner makes money, Cavs fans are happy. Dont act like Dan Gilbert doesnt value success, because he obviously does. Let’s see you pay that luxury tax with your McDonald’s salary.
Oh, and that “perennial also-ran” you speak of is widely regarded as the most likely team to challenge the Celtics in the East next year. I didnt see anyone, including the Lakers, push that team to 7 games and within a basket of elimination the way the Cavs did. But I guess that’s just my rose-colored glasses again, right?
June 21st, 2008 at 7:58 am
What does this Alan T. eat for breakfast? Must be prunes and Fiber One. The dude is so flatulating you can smell it through your laptop. Dollars to donuts (or prune pits) he lives with mom at 40 plus years of age and gets his jollys (and rocks off) on his keyboard.
June 21st, 2008 at 10:52 am
josh is going to have wet dreams over the cavs near victory over the celts in the second round until next june.
sure, the cavs came close. but there is another way to look at that game 7. that is the game that turned paul pierce into a monster. he went from being a pretty damn good all-star to playing like one of the best players in the league after that game. had the cavs seen pierce at that level for an entire series they would have lost in 5 or 6 just like the pistons and celtics.
June 21st, 2008 at 10:53 am
correction: lakers not celtics.
June 21st, 2008 at 11:58 am
I disagree Terje - yes, Pierce had a great game 7 and that’s why the Celts beat us, but the reason he didn’t go off on us the other games is because we played incredible defense on him. Even in game 7, our defense was solid, he just got in a zone and made some great shots. The Pistons and expecially the Laker’s D was giving him much more room to work, so that’s why he exploded in those series.
I had to laugh everytime I would hear an NBA “analyst” say that Ray Allen was in a shooting slump against the Cavs, but then he came out of it against Detroit and LA. He wasn’t in a shooting slump against the Cavs, he JUST COULDN’T GET A DECENT SHOT OFF. Didn’t we hold him scoreless one game on 0-4 shooting? We were swarming all over him in our series. Against Detroit, he had a little more room, and against LA, he was wide open many times. It’s called GREAT DEFENSE. Look at my post prior to the LA series - I prredicted Ray Allen would have a good series because LA’s defense was not near as good as Cleveland’s or Detroit’s. This is why many of us think the Cavs are very close to a championship caliber team - it’s because we played championship defense in the playoffs but just came up a little short on the offensive end. Our offense isn’t that bad, it’s that we just had a real hard time against the best defense that the NBA has seen in a few years. The Lakers had one of the best offenses this year, and they also struggled against the Celts. Look back at the Wizards series - our offense looked pretty good at times then.
Even though I was against doing any trades in Feb, I have to admit that we were a better team because of it. The only problem is that we didn’t have enough time to play together to get 4 new players used to our system. They started to get the defense down by playoff time, but we still struggled to find consistency on offense. I think that will come this year. Another thing to remember is that we were playing with an injured AV, Gibson and Sasha (only played Celts series) in the playoffs. It will be interesting to see how these guys develop next year if they can stay healthy. Looks like AV will be traded, though. I’d say keep him and if he has a monster year, then we could pay him the 10 mil a year that he wants. If he doesn’t develop into a 10 mil player, then let him go and use the open cap space. However, I understand why we would look to trade him since he’s shown that he doesn’t want to play for the Cavs anymore.
June 21st, 2008 at 1:25 pm
[...] Anyway, we’ll return to this sometime in September. For now, let’s take a stab at the various trade Varejao rumors floating around Planet Cavaliers. [...]
June 21st, 2008 at 2:23 pm
pierce didn’t go off on the hawks either. game 7 against the cavs was the turning point for pierce in the playoffs.
cavs fans are in deep denial if they think the cavs are right behind boston because they took them to 7 games. with that logic the hawks are the 3rd best team in the east. the cavs play great defense but no offense keeps even mediocre teams in the game at the end. i’m tired of watching shooters come to die in cleveland. i see better passing around the perimeter in high school ball. no wonder the shooters can’t get into a rhythm.
ferry is a joke. give me a g.m. like dumars who is not satisfied with losing every year over danny boy.
June 21st, 2008 at 2:50 pm
A GM like Dumars who drafts Darko Milistiff at no.2. The Pistons are one-hit wonders. They’ll NEVER win another championship with their current nucleus and you can book it (word to hair plugs Reghi)
June 21st, 2008 at 4:10 pm
OK terje, here’s some #’s to compare the Atl/Celts series vs the Clev/Celts series:
Atlanta vs Boston:
Total Points Atlanta: 610, Points per game Atlanta: 87.1
Total Points Boston: 694, Points per game Boston: 99.1
Thus, Boston +84 total points and +12 points per game.
Cleveland vs Boston:
Total Points Cleveland: 596, Points per game Cleveland: 85.1
Total Points Boston: 588, Points per game Boston: 84
Thus, Boston -8 total points and -1 point per game. About as even as you can get for a 7 game series.
This is why many of us think the Cavs are very close. As for the Pierce stats go, here’s his playoff averages:
Atl: 18.0 ppg, 44.8% FG%
Clev: 19.4 ppg, 40.4% FG%
Det: 19.7 ppg, 49.4% FG%
LA: 21.8 ppg, 43.2% FG%
As you can see, Pierce actually shot better in the Atl series than he did in the Finals - he just scored a little more points per game in the Finals. He was actually pretty consistent for all 4 series, except the Cavs held him to the lowest FG %. If you take out game 7 against the Cavs, his ppg and FG % #’s against the Cavs were even worse. This just shows that Pierce just didn’t get “hot” after game 7 - he just ran into a great Cavs defense that shut him down all series except for his phenomenal game 7, which he made one great shot after another. He was already playing pretty well against Atlanta before we even saw him. I’m sure the main reason for his ppg being lowest in the Atl series is because the Celts blew out Atl bad in the Garden all 4 games, so he rested alot in the 2nd halves of those games so his minutes were down.
June 21st, 2008 at 7:28 pm
i think they should draft CDR and trade ANdy and all those other big contracts for a good piont guard and a pick and draft a young big man like Brook lopez or hibbert
June 21st, 2008 at 9:10 pm
to be fair alan, the Cavs would be taking back Wright’s salary anyway, which is 2.9M so they’d actually only save on about half of Varejao’s salary and tax liability - 5.6M. And if money was REALLY the motivation, Golden State wouldn’t have to give anything back at all, they have a massive trade exception. We could send varejao, and, say, a future second round pick to them and get the entire amount off.
And I’m not sure where you are coming from, with your “february on” statement. Since the Cavs were already over the cap, it’s not like they took on substantial payroll liabilities for the season in the trade - they couldn’t because they were over the cap. League rules say the salaries have to be within what, 10%? Payroll and tax liabilties were only substantially affected long term by the deal - an extra year on Wallace’s contract vs Hughes - which is the opposite kind of commitment you are talking about.
June 21st, 2008 at 10:18 pm
Per Chad Ford’s Article:
“Mo Williams and Michael Redd are also in play in Milwaukee right now.”
I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again: Expiring contracts + Varajao/Gibson + #1 pick for Williams and Redd. Gilbert gets buried by a huge luxury tax bill and the Cavs have a legit shot to win a title. If this hasn’t already been proposed, I’ve lost faith in Ferry.
June 22nd, 2008 at 12:39 am
Chuck, true, you can double a guy like Wright’s rookie salary salary, but I’m assuming by it’s all said and done, they’ll be close to the cap. All this “Gilbert is spending” crap is an illusion. Or a delusion. They were plainly going the opposite direction, and then all of a sudden, for 30 games, they abruptly and suddenly turn course and add salary? But are they really “spending?” If they jack up ticket prices around 12-15% again, which has been the very silent and very sneaky M.O. during the Gilbert years (will we ever read about increased ticket prices in these parts or in any Cleveland, Akron or Canton newspaper?), then they’re really not “spending” at all. Snow’s contract is going to be insurance excised like the cripple both he and the contract is, Varejao is going to be dumped for salary relief, and so will the slow stiff white chump who can’t move or shoot anymore. It’s all good PR for Gilbert that he’s purported “spending,” but it’s all hooey. They ain’t spending. They’re creating the appearance of spending. But who’s really been paying for it?
But hey, if they get lucky, at least nobody will get themselves a life-threatening staph infection while they’re battling for the 12th through 15th spots on the roster at the sneakily underhanded taxpayer-financed Staph Infection Courts … uh, I mean Cleveland Clinic Courts.
June 22nd, 2008 at 10:58 am
good points tim.
lecavalier: are you high? jason maxiell at #26. stuckey and affalo? o.k., you can have ferry. by the way, where is shannon brown?
June 22nd, 2008 at 11:11 am
That was an excellent question, terje. Really. Where is Shannon Brown. At first I figured she was simply the bastard lovechild of the Cavs’ other woman, Donyell Marshall. After Ferry drafted her, I wrote Brown would be playing in Europe by 2009. That is, if any foreign team would take her. But I’ve got to admit, the rest and relaxation seems to be doing her good, and perhaps Europe can wait. In the meantime, buy “Corn Fed.”
http://www.shannonbrown.com/
June 22nd, 2008 at 11:50 am
Varejao can’t suddenly emerge as an offensive force since his moves and skills are so limited, but he can keep emerging as one of those great big-man role-player types, for whatever that’s worth. THat’s a best-case scenario though. So far he’s just a good role player and inconsistent
June 22nd, 2008 at 12:56 pm
Well, wherever Varejao is going, assuming he doesn’t get a serious injury before the end of the 2008-2009 season, his agent’s strategy worked pretty well, I think. And backfired in Ferry’s face. If not a total backfire, then certainly a big Idaho potato in Ferry’s tailpipe. Who in the hell is going to give Ferry any value outside of a future trade exemption for what essentially comes down to a partial season player rental? And Varejao now really has something to play for, so you know wherever he goes and whatever he does, he’s going to be giving 100% effort. Ferry is now stuck with what’s effectively going to be a salary dump. I mean, it’s ridiculous, and with Ilgauskas’ and Wallace’s two respective back forks now poking out of them, can the roster handle it? Probably something in the vein of what Steve Kerr was forced to do when he had to give away Kurt Thomas and two first-round picks simply to remove salary off of the books.
I did like reading this piece when it was originally printed. It showed how totally full of it Ferry and his media propaganda partners really were. http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=3128446
June 22nd, 2008 at 2:01 pm
yea, the cavs gave away lebron when they made the ben wallace trade. it wouldn’t be foolish to start some type of rebuilding process right away- miami? i agree that andy will always be a role player.
June 22nd, 2008 at 2:39 pm
what does shannon brown have to do with anything? he was a late first round pick. its not like blowing a lottery pick. anyhow, there was nobody of real value taken after shannon brown in that draft except for daniel gibson, who the cavs got anyways. maybe jordan farmar, but he is nothing special. frankly, taking milicic at #2 is WAY worse than taking shannon brown at #25.
June 22nd, 2008 at 2:40 pm
brickflip - what are you talking about?
June 22nd, 2008 at 3:31 pm
The Brandan wright trade was one one of the worst ideas i heard in a while (excluding George Bush)
June 22nd, 2008 at 3:37 pm
In Joe Dumar’s defense, everybody and their mother had Milicic rated ahead of Anthony, including Marty Blake. Obviously, Anthony turned out to be the better NBA player. But it didn’t really harm them, because Dumars is otherwise so freakin’ good at what he does. He made a tremendous 2002 pick at #23 by drafting Tayshaun Prince. On the other hand, if Ferry had that same #23 pick, he probably would have drafted the guy featured in this picture. Oops! Seriously, comparing the front office skills of Ferry to Dumars is like comparing a turd to the Hope Diamond.
http://nymag.com/images/2/daily/entertainment/07/05/04_prince_lgl.jpg
June 22nd, 2008 at 3:49 pm
how about we let ferry actually get some picks in before we get on his case? the guy has had 2 picks in 3 seasons - missed on shannon brown and hit on daniel gibson in the second round. so far 1 for 2.
June 22nd, 2008 at 4:15 pm
I think Eric Gordon will be a star. Would you trade up to get him at 9 or 10 if he’s there?
June 22nd, 2008 at 7:11 pm
[...] Getting a handle on Varejao rumorsThe Cavs have had trade talks with at least five teams about Varejao. But these talks have three sides, the Cavs, the potential trading partner and Varejaos agent, Dan Fegan. Because Andy has to give permission to be traded before Dec … [...]
June 22nd, 2008 at 8:03 pm
Alan, you cant have it both ways. You cant give Dumars a free pass for whiffing on a #2 pick in the most LOADED draft in a decade, but rip Ferry for whiffing on Larry Hughes and co. That’s called a double standard. Perhaps further proof that Ferry fired you from your job as a janitor at the Q?? But you’re right, Darko certainly looked “ultra-fabulous” or whatever other homo-suspect word you’d like to use.
I think the Cavs’ best option right now, unless some fall-down drunk like Chris Wallace decides to gift-wrap his best player, would be to draft CDR or Brandon Rush to fill that gaping hole at 2 guard, try to buy back into the high 2nd round and go for a big like AV who can run the floor, and then see what’s available at the deadline next season. Again, unless someone decides to do something stupid (like Milwaukee gift-wrapping their 2 best players for a Cleveland pu-pu platter), why force your hand and bury this team further in cap hell? They’re one more year away from roughly 30 million in cap space, lest we forget.
I’m starting to think Tim in Plantation is far too smart to be arguing with brain-deads such as Alan and terje (is that “turd” in spanish or something?). But hey fellas, dont let all those facts and figures get in the way of a completely biased argument, right???
June 22nd, 2008 at 8:04 pm
Jason Maxiell = Robert Traylor part II. Wait and see.
June 22nd, 2008 at 9:52 pm
not to turn this into a maxiell debate, but the guy really isnt more than a bench player. if he is a starter or even one of your first 2 off the bench, then i think your team is in trouble. hes a nice rebounder and shot blocker off the bench and provides a spark, but hes certainly not the second coming of shaq.
June 22nd, 2008 at 9:54 pm
Josh:
I’ll buy most of what you’re selling but don’t kid yourself into thinking that we are going to pull one, let alone two guys out of this draft that can provide meaningful contributions within the next two years (the only years that really matter at this point). I’m not saying it never happens….I’m well aware that plenty of 2’s have stepped right into the league and contributed, but you certainly can’t call that a viable strategy….that’s just hoping to get lucky.
I think the answer is somewhere in between building through the draft and mortgaging the future with a drastic (and most likely ill-fated) roster overhaul: Hold on to Varajao this summer, draft a 2-guard at 19, and then hope that by midseason, your new 2 is contributing and your team is good enough to contend (very unlikely). At that point, even if you missed in the draft and your team as constructed isn’t good enough, you still have time to trade your expirings and Varajao in a haymaker deal for a high risk veteran (see Redd, Michael…if he hasn’t already been sold) and you only have to run with the 100 year old frontcourt for less than half a season. Plus, with this strategy, you could let Varajao “feature” himself (AKA play him way too many minutes) to let him try to increase his trade value and more importantly, keep the minutes down for Z, Smith, and Wallace.
Odds of this scenario playing itself out: 75-1
June 22nd, 2008 at 10:02 pm
the fact is, the cavs were in the finals 2 seasons ago and certainly looked the best against the eventual champion celtics last season. they came the closest to beating boston out of anyone. in reality, the eastern conference finals was the cle-bos series since detroit was not going to beat either team. like or not, this team is a legit contender right now as constructed. i dont think its good enough to win a championship in its current state and has to get better, but they are right on the verge of being there. to put it simply, they are ALOT closer to winning a championship right now as is than they are to being in the lottery. obviously they will make some moves and they have some flexibility, despite what the national “know it alls” think.
June 22nd, 2008 at 10:34 pm
Stuckey, Aaron A. and Maxiell. . . Decent certainly not great. Looks like Stuckey will be a low to sub 40 percent guy, Aaron A will be out of the league in a few years and Maxiell is serviceable big off the bench and 5 fouls. Yep, Dumars is a genius.
BTW I’m not a Ferry apologist. Shannon Brown is travesty.
June 22nd, 2008 at 11:19 pm
GUYS WHY DONT WE GET RID OF ANDY AND SNOW FOR HARRINGTON WRIGHT OR WHY DOESNT DANNY FERRY TRY FOR ELTON BRAND INSTEAD OF TRADING WALLY HE JUST NEEDS SOME TIME TO FIT INTO THE TEAM LEARN THE CAVS PLAYS AND
June 22nd, 2008 at 11:54 pm
[...] the Lakers’ car flag.PG: Brew Hoop. Poll: Who would win if the Celtics played Team USA?6th: Brian Windhorst, Akron Beacon Journal. Getting a handle on these Andy Varejao trade rumors.7th: The Sports Hernia. A hilarious look back [...]
June 23rd, 2008 at 12:55 am
Josh, Dumars whiffed on something that all draft gurus agreed with him on, including the head of the NBA’s own scouting firm. One whiff out of what, 30? On the other hand, Ferry’s claim to fame was renting Flip Wilson, or whatever that guy’s name was, for 28 games, and drafting a second-round draft pick that can’t do anything but shoot a three-pointer. Basically, a smaller, blacker Fred Hoiberg. Whoopie. Give Danny Boy a cookie. And hopefully, a one-way bus ticket straight out of town after the Cavs go nowhere again in May of ‘09, and and all of Northeast Ohio is in total panic mode about what’s going to happen next.
In fact, I’m kind of looking forward to next summer and those months afterwards. Finally, something truly interesting to read about on a consistent basis.
June 23rd, 2008 at 2:19 am
Jim Paxson recognized that Darko was going to be a bust. Maybe drafting so many of them made him on knowing a bust when he saw one
June 23rd, 2008 at 5:01 am
Well, notto pile on Josh but what the hell does $30 million off the books do when the Cavs already have an $81 million dollar payroll? After signing West and Boobie at about $4 mil per year a piece and signing rookies the Cavs will have about a $61 million payroll at the end of the 2009 season. Best case scenario, if Varejao isn’t traded and he opts out at the end of 2009 the Cavs are looking at $55 million.
So even if the salary cap is set close to $60 million that’s only $5 million dollars (less than the MLE) to sign a “star” player. If you can find me a star that will sign for $5 mil, I’ll cover you in chocolate sauce and give you a Persian lap dance.
June 23rd, 2008 at 8:58 am
not to pile on shannon brown here, but that has been ferry’s only first round draft pick so far - and it was #25 overall. so what if he missed? its not like missing on a lottery pick which paxson did every season. lets at least give ferry this draft before we can make any determination on his drafting ability (or inability). by the way, these are the names drafted AFTER shannon brown. now look at this list and say ferry really screwed up that pick. there was nobody else to draft anyways! Shannon Brown, Jordan Farmar (really the only one I can see taking, but not an impact player and really a bench guy - not unlike delonte west), Sergio Rodriguez, Maurice Ager, Mardy Collins, Joel Freeland, James White, Steve Novak, Solomon Jones, Paul Davis, P.J. Tucker, Craig Smith, Bobby Jones, Kosta Perovic, David Noel, Denham Brown, James Augustine, Daniel Gibson (Ferry’s only other pic - not bad considering the rest of the names available!), Marcus Vinicius,
Alexander Johnson, Dee Brown, Paul Millsap, Vladimir Veremeenko, Leon Powe, Ryan Hollins, Cheick Samb, Guillermo Diaz, Yotam Halperin, Hassan Adams, Ejike Ugboaja, Edin Bavcic, Loukas Mavrokefalidis, J.R. Pinnock, Damir Markota, Will Blalock
June 23rd, 2008 at 9:10 am
and if we are going to compare ferry to joe dumars who is apparently a “genius GM,” and we are also giving him a pass on Darko, then how do you explain Dumars draftings Mateen cleaves (14th overall when he missed on quentin richardson, deshawn stevenson, mo peterson)? rodney white 9th overall (missing on joe johnson, richard jefferson, zach randolph, tony parker?)) we rip on Ferry for signing Damon Jones, but Dumars did the same thing in 2001. waiving bobby simmons? letting mehmet okur go? the point is, Dumars isnt perfect and has made his share of mistakes. it takes time to build a team into a winner and so far ferry has gotten this team into contention in 3 years, despite all the issues the roster had which were created by paxson. lets see how things go this offseason - be optimistic!
June 23rd, 2008 at 9:27 am
so basically Dumars has more than just “one whiff” as Alan T and others suggest.
June 23rd, 2008 at 1:22 pm
All GMs whiff and get lucky.
Probably the bottom line is within a few years Dumars built a championship squad pretty much from scratch without the benefit of a dominating talent and without saddling the franchise with some of the league’s more ludicrous contracts.
With LeBron and $30 million initially at his disposal, Ferry has yet to build a championship team and his boss is on the hook for a couple pretty bad contracts.
But maybe next year.
June 23rd, 2008 at 1:44 pm
werent the cavs in the finals last season? this past season they were arguably the second best team as the came closest to beating the eventual-champion celtics. so within a few years, ferry has gotten the cavs on the brink of a championship. dumars started from scratch, but ferry has started from in a hole thanks to that idiot paxson.
dumars has won one championship. thats it. dumars has his fair share of hefty contracts to deal with. billups at $60.5 mil through ‘12 (yikes!), prince at $40 mil through ‘11 (no thanks).amir johnson at $11 mil through ‘10. so yes, most GM’s have their hits and misses. the point is i dont see why these posts are making dumars to be this amazing GM. he has done a good job, but has his fair share of mistakes and issues. ferry will be fine.
June 23rd, 2008 at 2:13 pm
Some would you have you believe Stuckey and Maxiell are great players. That’s like saying Luke Jackson was half as good as Larry Bird.
June 23rd, 2008 at 2:34 pm
Dumars did a great job early on but I agree he lost his touch. That team has been on cruise control for the past three or four years (though for some reason everybody is fooled every regular season), the Milicic decision was disastrous and hiring Flip was uninspired at best. Hopefully that team will start declining more precipitously now.
But saying Ferry started in a hole seems off track, to put it mildly. It would have been nice to have some draft picks stockpiled, but he had LeBron and $30 million in cap space.
June 23rd, 2008 at 2:50 pm
true he had the capspace, but a GM can only go after guys who are available. ferry probably got the best guys that were out there and spent the money that was available. im sure he would have gone the trade route, but considering we didnt have any draft picks to trade (thanks to paxson) nor did we have any young prospects to trade since previous picks were blown (again thanks to paxson), making any type of trade to get a joe johnson, allen iverson, andre miller or kevin garnett was nearly impossible. the fact still remains that in 2 seasons, ferry got the team to the NBA finals and in 3 has the team on the verge of a championship. this team is really only another solid scorer away. defensively, this team is right there. look at Kobe’s current comments about how the lakers need a stronger defensive identity. well the cavs are one of the best rebounding and defensive teams in the league. there are 3 main elements for a legit contender - 1) strong defense, 2) strong rebounding and 3) a true go to player. the cavs have all three. they are right there.
June 23rd, 2008 at 3:17 pm
Dumars made the mistake of not trading Rasheed Wallace two seasons ago. Clearly Wallace sabotaged those teams.
June 23rd, 2008 at 3:47 pm
hamilton is another hefty contract. big money in a guy that is pretty 1-dimensional and getting older. thats a hard guy to move.
June 23rd, 2008 at 4:17 pm
Thoughts:
- We all know that there’s no such thing as a perfect GM. Right now Danny Ainge looks like a genius, despite the fact that all he did was stockpile enough mediocre draft picks and young talent that he was able to get Kevin Garnett for pennies on the dollar because Kevin McHale is an idiot and a former Celtic. He flat-out stole millions of dollars from Celtics fans in the 2006-07 season in their disgraceful tanking effort. And now they love him because they won a championship. Pat Riley built a team for a championship, then made the people of Miami pay for it for two years afterwards. They were pulling their hair out on South Beach this year. But now that the season is over, Shaq is gone, Wade should be healthy, and they have the #2 pick, all is pretty much forgiven. In sports, the losses make you look worse than you are, but all your past failures are forgiven if you win the next day.
- Joe Dumars is a good GM. He sets his sights on other GMs in weak positions, and like a vulture he circles, waits for his opportunity, then takes what he wants. This year he traded Nazr Mohammed and his 3(!) remaining contract years to the Bobcats for Walter Hermann and Primoz Brezec, two guys who were a) more productive than Mohammed, and b) free agents at then end of the season. He fixed his mistake in signing Mohammed by taking advantage of the Bobcats’ need for a big man following Emeka Okafor’s injury. Combine that with his ability to find productive players late in the draft (Stuckey, Maxiell), and you have the reason why the Pistons win bunches of games every year.
- You might be asking, “If Dumars is so good, why does he think he needs to blow his team up after last year?†The reason is Rasheed Wallace. Dumars knows as well as anybody that guys like Billups and Hamilton can only get you so far. You need a guy with Rasheed Wallace’s talent to win a Championship, and you need him focused and committed to playing his best. In the last two Playoffs, Rasheed has been unable to keep himself under control, and it cost his team in losses to the Cavaliers and the Celtics. Dumars knows that he has to get Rasheed back in the fold, and it’s going to take a major move to do that. Otherwise, he has to move Wallace himself, and hope that he gets enough back to keep the team competitive.
- And he knows that he can’t get enough back. Dumars’ best move was rolling the dice on Rasheed, getting him for pennies on the dollar for Zeljko Rebraca, Bob Sura, and a 1st Round pick. You read that right.
- Speaking of Stuckey and Maxiell, they are two examples of a new trend I’m seeing in NBA analysis: the overrating of role players. Sure, a good role player can make a timely difference in a Playoff series (see: Horry, Robert), but role players don’t win playoff games, stars do. Rajon Rondo was not the difference in the Finals; Paul Pierce, Kevin Garnett, and Ray Allen were the difference. A Daniel Gibson can erupt for 31 points in a Game 6, but there wouldn’t be a Game 6 if it wasn’t for LeBron James. Even that Pistons Championship team from 2004 had a superstar in Rasheed Wallace and four near-superstars in Chauncey Billups, Rip Hamilton, Ben Wallace, and Tayshaun Prince. You don’t win without super-elite players, and if you don’t have elite players (Chicago, Indiana, Milwaukee, Atlanta, Philadelphia, New York, New Jersey, Charlotte, Portland (unless Oden is amazing), the Clippers, Golden State, Sacramento, Minnesota), you better make a move to get one, or tank to draft one. Otherwise, someone else is going to be the GM of your team soon.
- Which is why I want to see the Cavs make a move for a real star, rather than trying to better align the role players around LeBron. LeBron doesn’t need a super-elite sidekick; a Michael Redd-level player should be enough. But they need to upgrade their #2 player, because Z, Gibson, West or Wallace is not enough.
- Just make sure you don’t weaken your defense or rebounding too much to add a guy like Redd. Otherwise you’ve just turned into the Denver Nuggets. And you don’t want to be the Denver Nuggets.
- Eric Gordon’s lack of size, defense, and intensity bother me. He can put the ball in the basket, but he doesn’t have a good outside shot (only .337 from the college 3), and he won’t be able to bully his way to the basket like he did in college. And he can’t (or won’t) pass, his assist-to-turnover numbers are terrible. If you’re drafting him in the top ten, you are hoping for Dwyane Wade, but you are more likely to get Ben Gordon. A Ben Gordon-type player is never going to be a major contributor on a serious contender. And at least Ben Gordon could hit the 3 (.443 in college).
Go Cavs.
Mike C.
June 23rd, 2008 at 9:38 pm
Mike C - great post!
Regarding Dumars, I have to point out that the Nazr Mohammed trade was only good as a salary dump. Mohammed was languishing on the Detroit bench, for sure, but far out produced either Hermann or Brezec once he got to Charlotte. You can probably combine those two players and get the same result, because they both fell off the earth as NBA players. I actually thought the move hurt Detroit in the playoffs against the Celtics this year - they didn’t really have a true big man and were forced to use Wallace or go small. Signing Mohammed to a bad contract and then compounding the problem by dumping him for two players that gave the Pistons nothing, while creating a hole at back up center, is Dumars overlooked “other” bad move.
That being said, I agree with your post on the whole. The Cavs need a player that, if not a current all-star, plays very, very close to that level right now - Redd fits the bill perfectly. Today. Not three years ago. Right now. A player that can score. I don’t think it matters much what position it is, but it probably doesn’t make sense to acquire a center, other than drafting one.
I think you’re mostly on the money regarding role players, too. They can make a difference - usually a defensive specialist/swingman (like Posey, Bowen, etc) or a three point bomber/instant offense guy. But for the most part, it’s the money players that win the money games.
Thanks again for the post.
June 24th, 2008 at 12:00 pm
A rumor on cnnsi.com has the Cavs dealing Andy for Al Harrington. Who here wouldn’t do that in a heartbeat? No, he isn’t the #2 scorer the Cavs are looking for, but for what you’re giving up isn’t bad. He shot over 40% from 3PT in 06-07. Another guy who is rumored to be available is Leandro Barbosa. Boy, I wish the Cavs could get him. The man can score. I also like Redd, Richard Jefferson & Gerald Wallace.
June 24th, 2008 at 1:00 pm
i saw that. there has to be more to it than just those 2 in order to make the money work, i would think. plus andy has to agree to be traded so that makes it tougher to move him. however, if GS is dumb enough to give up harrington for varejao id take it.
June 24th, 2008 at 1:27 pm
Trading for Brandon Wright, a legit *NOBODY* would basically be Cleveland’s tradition. Drafting either Brandon Rush, CDR, or Roy Hibbert are the CAVS options at #19. PERIOD!
If the can somehow manage to acquire a 2nd rd pick great. Adding Jamar Butler would be nice as well, seeing Boobie isn’t a given to remain a CAV much longer. I would love to see Roy Hibbert, and Jamar butler added to this roster.
Those throwing names like Koufos and Speights are not very intelligent, don’t watch much basketball, and DO NOT want Cleveland to win anything. I live near Jacksonville and even here they knew Speights wasn’t ready to jump, so stop putting his name out like he’s a gem. Koufos i a complete joke, and continuing the soft trend in the middle for the CAVS would ruin this Franchise and basically tell Lebron, “SEE YA!!”.
June 24th, 2008 at 3:06 pm
We don’t need a 2nd round pick to get Butler, we could sign him after draft day seeing how he wont be drafted. Brandon Rush likely won’t be at 19 since his stock is rising right now, and Hibbert has such a low ceiling he isn’t worth drafting. He is too weak to bang down low and will only be productive in the NBA if he develops a jump shot, like Z. He has shown flashes of being able to shoot but he has to be wide open. If we do get a 2nd round pick, I want DJ White or Jamont Gordon, both I think will turn into solid role players which is all you can ask out of a 2nd round pick
Good post Mike, but I go to IU, and here is the scoop on Eric Gordon. His outside jump shot is actually one of the most beautiful shots in the game, but a bad wrist injury robbed him of his rhythm and his confidence and his numbers diminished. If you look at the last 3 games he played before Kelvin Sampson got fired, all against ranked teams, he played very well especially against Michigan St, but when Sampson left his season effectively ended as he couldn’t shoot anymore and didn’t have a coach to help get him in the right mindset. But he is super athletic and is actually a very good on the ball defender (did you ever actually watch him play?). He is very strong, but his handles are terrible/awful/horrendous which were the primary cause of his unreasonably high turnover ratio. If the Cavs were actually able to trade up and get him (which they won’t), he wouldn’t be a bad pick because he can shoot with NBA range right away and has the athletic ability and potential to be able to create his own shot. I think it is far from a lock he will be a good player though, he has a lot to work on, but like I said the athleticism and potential is there. I don’t know why he has been brought up, seeing how the Cavs don’t have the tools to trade up to the 7th pick or so that is needed, but still, that is my take on Gordon.
At 19, I really hope Mario Chalmers is there. He can shoot, run the point, and is one of the best defenders in the draft. Obviously he will need a year or two to become good, but at 19, there is no way to avoid that
June 24th, 2008 at 3:07 pm
I also think we need to use our expiring contracts not only to get a #2 scoring option, but we could really use better role players in general. It is more likely that we can trade expiring contracts for a couple solid players instead of one awesome player
June 24th, 2008 at 3:45 pm
- The Varejao-Harrington trade a Peter Vescey rumor from the NY Post. Harrington makes $9.2M this year and $10M next year. There would need to be other pieces involved. And Harrington is a god-awful rebounder. He would be the second coming of Donyell Marshall.
- Brandan Wright is a good player, and the Cavs would be better off with him on the team. I like Andy as much as the next guy, but I’m not about to overvalue his role on the team. If they can get a more athletic, less whiny big man to replace him, I’m all for it.
- When did the #19 pick all of a sudden become gold? I’m glad the Cavs have the pick, and I think they can get a solid bench player out of it, but neither Douglas-Roberts (no, he’s not nearly good enough to have a nickname), Hibbert, nor anyone else available at that spot is going to be a significant contributor. In fact, I’d guess the Cavs are likely to end up with a guy who is a bigger project than they’d like as guys like Douglas-Roberts and Hibbert are likely to be gone, as guys shy away from the project guys.
- Jamar Butler isn’t going to get drafted.
- I would like to see the Cavs take a look at Courtney Lee later in the draft, if they can buy a late first-round pick or an early second-round pick. He carries himself well and he can shoot the lights out.
June 24th, 2008 at 3:48 pm
agree with ricky. gordon is a nice player, but got out of synch once his team in college went into complete chaos. hes hard to get a full grasp on, but doesnt seem worth trading up to pick. mario chalmers at 19 would be fantastic. i do like hibbert though, but i the upside is limited. i can see him ending up being a “pretty good” center in the nba (hardly an all-star; maybe a little better than brendan haywood) which isnt such a bad thing. you can do worse at #19.
June 24th, 2008 at 4:07 pm
does mario chalmers remind anyone else of andre miller? maybe not as good of a passer, but a better shooter. can defend. is solid all-around.
June 24th, 2008 at 4:48 pm
If we get pretty good at 19, I would declare it a rousing success.
June 24th, 2008 at 6:01 pm
tom, I like pretty much all of your points. Having LeBron James and 30 million in cap space doesnt mean the Cavs could have landed Shawn Marion. A GM doesnt make miracles happen, he makes the best moves for the franchise based on what is available. The “NBA experts” Alan speaks of also thought Larry Hughes was a slam-dunk sidekick for James. Evidently, the only arguments that are viable in the book of Alan are ones that serve his cause… to bash Ferry and the Cavs.
Chris Douglas-Roberts has that Antawn Jamison type game, with creative moves and a knack for scoring. He’s a big kid (6′6 200) and he was arguably Memphis’ best player for two years. If he’s there at 19, it’s a steal.
Brandan Rush wont be there, but he’s CDR with a prettier game and a lethal jumper. I’d love to see him here.
Mario Chalmers is a big PG and a floor general the Cavs are looking for. He’s played in big games and won a majority of them. His talent and his pedigree make him a great option.
I agree that Eric Gordon had the broken hand and battled through it, and he can play. He wont be there.
Hibbert would be the replacement for Z, and I would be careful to call his ceiling “limited” just because he’s slow. Centers arent supposed to be greyhounds. He battled Oden pretty evenly in the Final 4 game a couple years ago, and at 7′2, his size being available at 19 is pretty rare. He blocks shots and could be a defensive stud if he figures out the NBA game.
I would like to see the Cavs pick up a 2nd rounder and add some youth, maybe a young big. This team needs a couple of young prospects to add to the vets, especially up front.
I think the Cavs are very close, and they’ll get a very good player at 19 as long as Ferry doesnt out-think himself. I cant wait for Thursday to see what the Cavs do.
June 24th, 2008 at 7:08 pm
Apparently Brian Windhorst is very sick and in the hospital. Good luck and get better soon Brian. Here’s the link:
http://myespn.go.com/blogs/truehoop/0-32-353/Think-Good-Thoughts-for-Brian-Windhorst.html
June 24th, 2008 at 7:23 pm
Brian get better soon
June 24th, 2008 at 7:37 pm
Thoughts and prayers going out to Brian as he battles whatever it is that is ailing him.
June 24th, 2008 at 7:41 pm
Get well soon, Brian. My thoughts are with you.
June 24th, 2008 at 7:45 pm
We need you writing as well as ever and as soon as possible. Get better, Brian.
June 24th, 2008 at 7:48 pm
Get well soon Brian! I’m sure I join every fan of the Cavs & this blog in sending you our thoughts and prayers for a speedy recovery.
June 24th, 2008 at 8:42 pm
Brian:
Get well soon. My thoughts and prayers are with you.
June 24th, 2008 at 9:14 pm
Get well soon, you haven’t seen a Cleveland team win a title yet
June 24th, 2008 at 9:44 pm
Brian, we’ve never met but I’ve followed you everyday in the newspaper. Get well; we are all thinking of you!
June 24th, 2008 at 9:53 pm
Brian, get better soon!! I’m the one who’s supposed to be getting sick, not you.
June 24th, 2008 at 9:58 pm
Brian - I’m praying for you - get better soon my friend.
Best,
Tom
June 24th, 2008 at 10:09 pm
Another local writer confirmed that Brian is pretty sick and in need of our thoughts and prayers. I hope he gets well soon.
June 24th, 2008 at 10:18 pm
I general don’t think very highly of local beat writers. That is especially true for the Cleveland writers who follow our teams for a living yet seem to have no idea of what’s really going on and no inside sources from whom they can get information.
Windhorst, on the other hand, is not only a good writer but also someone who actually gets information on an issue before he writes about it. He is far and away the best writer in the Cleveland market and compares favorable to just about anyone else I’ve read, national writers included.
Get well BW. We love your work and hope to have you back soon.
June 24th, 2008 at 11:36 pm
Brian, I am a big fan of Cavs and love your work. Thoughts and prayer is with you. Hope you get well soon.
June 24th, 2008 at 11:49 pm
Get well soon, Windhorst. I just hope you didn’t catch a Cleveland Clinic Courts staph infection from one of Ferry’s chairs, because if you did, then they might as well bring in the rabbi and read you the last rites now. Yes, I know you aren’t Jewish, but who knows, all this time you may have been wrong. So why risk it? It’s no coincidence that Hal Lebovitz now gets the best media seats in the house, and with absolutely no Ticketmaster fees nor Gilbert’s Flashseats scam. Gilbert was able to kick you and everybody else out of your courtside media seats so he could line his pockets even more, but even Gilbert can’t touch Lebovitz. Best seats in the house, every single game. That’s both regular season and playoffs. Trust me, go with the rabbi.
June 25th, 2008 at 12:01 am
Get well soon, Brian. Hopefully, the Cavs actions in and around the draft raise your spirits, too.
June 25th, 2008 at 1:27 am
Ken H - people that watch a lot of basketball - meaning more than you - think Speights and Koufos are legit NBA players. Like pretty much every professional basketball writer & analyst I’ve seen project this draft.
Wrights not a nobody, by the way, and it doesn’t sound like Mullin wants to deal him anyway.
Ricky - it seems like Hibbart’s ceiling may be viable NBA back up center, and it seems like he’s at that ceiling pretty much right now. We could use one of those. A bigger shot blocker that can hit an occasional jumper would be a big improvement over, say, Dwayne Jones, who managed to get some minutes from us last year despite having no offensive game whatsoever.
Also, I agree that we need to get a number two for Lebron, but I also think that for the most part, our role players are adequate and will fit in nicely once they aren’t expected to be that number two player by committee.
Mike C: I don’t think Golden State would make that deal. You’re way off the mark on Harrington. He is far, far more athletic than arthritic like Marshall was when he arrived, and a much more versatile scorer, and honestly, he’s a decent enough rebounder, even though he was stuck for large portions of the year in Don Nelson’s system as an undersized center. He’s Antawn Jamison light, a streakier shooter but a little more athletic. He’s short of the player that I want as Lebron’s sidekick, but he’d be a great third scorer.
Best wishes, Brian, hope you get well soon!
Josh, it’s hard for me to think of Douglas-Roberts as a steal at 19 when many don’t even have him projected in the first round anymore. A steal would be getting someone’s pick in a deal and grabbing him later.
June 25th, 2008 at 7:07 am
Damn–Portland bought Memphis’ 27th pick for cash.
Why didn’t the Cavs get in on that?
June 25th, 2008 at 8:45 am
For the exact same reason that Ferry didn’t buy back the exact same first-round pick that Paxson had previously traded for Jiri Welsch, when it was out there from Phoenix for any and all takers. That pick turned into Rudy Fernandez for Portland. Will he be any good? Who knows. The reason Ferry didn’t get in on that either? Oh, I don’t know … because he was too busy surfing for something that would match his new polka dot shorts?
http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=sr_pg_1?ie=UTF8&rs=1036592&keywords=sperry%20top-sider&rh=n%3A1036592%2Ck%3Asperry%20top-sider&page=1
June 25th, 2008 at 8:55 am
Thoughts and prayers for BW.
June 25th, 2008 at 9:11 am
this guy alan T is a moron. they were just in the finals 2 seasons ago, and were arguably even better last year?! whats the bug in your butt?
June 25th, 2008 at 9:40 am
Take care, Brian. You’re in our thoughts.
June 25th, 2008 at 9:55 am
There are two ideas on here that hurt my head just reading and should NEVER occur:
1. Including Gibson in a package deal.
- FYI, he’s our second most talented player behind LeBron!! Going into his third year this kid has had the chance to be coached by Snow and other veterans and work with LeBron to groom his game. In his first year he was simply a spot shooter, but last year he started driving to the lanes, playing perimeter D, and making PG-like passes and plays. Am I the only person who sees this?!? Most championship teams built talent from growing players in the draft, Gibson has been our best pick since LeBron. Why trade away a player who has nearly developed for us and probably should start this year?
2. Trade away the #19 pick entirely.
- WE CAN’T. We gave away last year’s picks and according to the Thepstein (sp?) Rule, we have to keep a draft pick this year. Though I am for making a big trade this summer, if we were to make a winter-deadline trade, it would be for one or two players, not dismantling the whole team. That’s a very different trade, one that doesn’t require us to learn how to play as a team all over again. Bring in a Redd, Brand, Anthony (please God I hope), or Okafor (great idea if you think about it) and let them quickly adapt to our system and we’d simply just improve. Paxson nearly ruined this team by trading away picks for an insurance salesmen named Yiri Welsch, or did everyone have a stroke and forget this?
June 25th, 2008 at 10:23 am
Brian,
You are the best beat writer in the league and seem like a good person. Get well soon and every Cavs fans’ thoughts are with you.
June 25th, 2008 at 10:26 am
Gibson is a one-trick pony. Who cares if he’s traded? And why not trade the first-round pick? There’s no inherent value to the pick itself, a bunch of future Devin Browns. If even that. If it can be included in a package, then why not?
And again, I ask: How did Paxson ruin the team by trading away a first-round pick for Welsch? It’s a totally bogus assertion. Steve Kerr sold the damn pick, Ferry could have bought it back.
By the way, Windhorst really is in bad shape … I just called the hospital, he’s still in intensive care. But it’s not like he’s 90-years-old, or anything, he’ll make it. I was going to FedEx him a Danny Ferry poster to hang over his bed to cheer him up after he’s out of ICU, but I was told by the nurse that it might have cooties, or something. And I don’t send guys flowers, just a personal preference. And nobody likes fruit baskets.
June 25th, 2008 at 10:35 am
The idea that hurts my head is drafting that big slow as molasses center from Georgetown.
June 25th, 2008 at 10:57 am
get well, mr. windhorst.
June 25th, 2008 at 11:40 am
We are kind of hurting for local draft coverage with Brian sick and in the hospital and to some extent–Branson Wright getting fired by the Plain Dealer.
June 25th, 2008 at 12:19 pm
B-Dub,
Thoughts and prayer going out for a speedy recovery.
You are the best in the business!
June 25th, 2008 at 1:23 pm
Good luck to Brian and here’s hoping for a quick recovery.
June 25th, 2008 at 1:33 pm
alan t:
Seriously dude, there are times to joke around and times to be serious. This is one of the latter. The guy is apparently in really bad shape…not exactly the optimum time for your comedy.
Andrew K:
The “Ted Stepian Rule,” (not that you should know that being a Cleveland fan or anything) would prevent the Cavs from trading the pick before the draft but the could agree to a trade beforehand and act as a surrogate for the other team, thereby accomplishing the same result.
As for Dan Gibson, as a player he isn’t worth that much for his basketball abilities. He’s an undersized shooter with a crappy handle. No exactly irreplaceable. His real value is that Lebron likes him and thus, keeping him around might be necessary. Still, I’m sure if the Cavs included Gibson in a move to get a legit scorer, Lebron would get over it sometime in the next two years.
June 25th, 2008 at 2:02 pm
Brian,
You are my favorite Sports writer … BY FAR! I wish you the best to battle this illness.
Hope to see your writings soon!
June 25th, 2008 at 3:46 pm
Actually, the Cavs can trade the 2008 pick now, regardless of the fact that they traded the 2007 pick. They could have traded the 2008 pick at any time following the 2007 draft. The rule only prevents teams from trading two consecutive *future* draft picks. Once the last draft is over, the pick in that draft is no longer a “future” draft pick, and does not impact the ability to trade next year’s pick.
The rule was just designed to impact the trading of picks. It wasn’t designed to force teams to make a first round pick every other year.
Mike C.
June 25th, 2008 at 4:00 pm
Get well soon Brian. I’ll be praying for a steady recovery.
June 25th, 2008 at 5:02 pm
Alan, I think you are right on the money about both Gibson and the pick. I have to say, though, that while Gibson is a “one trick pony” and just an “undersized shooter” (as Biff put it), that his one trick is pretty good. He’s going to be a three point shooter that teams covet for a while, and I think he’s got value for this team. But people get carried away with it, and think he should be untouchable. The closest he’ll ever get to an All Star Game is the three point shootout, and if the Cavs can package him to get a true sidekick for Lebron, they should do it without hesitation.
And you’re half right about the Jiri Welsch thing - the Cavs could have bought the pick back, but WE TRADED FOR JIRI WELSCH. The Cavs might have been able to push into the playoffs, and that was the move we made - a humiliating, morale sucking deal for a useless player. It didn’t kill us long term like the Boozer fiasco, but didn’t every Cavs fan at the moment they heard about that trade throw up just a little?
Larry, a lot of people hate the idea of drafting Hibbart. I don’t get it. He will never be an exceptional player, but he basically will give the Cavs another Ilgauskas style player instead of Dwayne Jones. I think we could do a lot worse at the 19th pick. We don’t need upside or a project. We’re not going a team looking to develop new young players right now - we’re not going to get a point guard that can come in and help us right away - and Hibbart has four years of school, and seems ready to contribute.
June 25th, 2008 at 6:58 pm
GET WELL SOON
June 25th, 2008 at 8:56 pm
Brian, you are a fantastic writer and blogger. I hope that you get well soon! I also hope that we can get CDR with the 19th pick. Oh, and no trading Boobie!
June 25th, 2008 at 9:12 pm
yeah seriously alan t, lay off the bad comedy routine regarding someone being sick. not that funny, just sort of mean.
get well brian, you are missed.
June 25th, 2008 at 11:08 pm
Just sort of mean? Dude, do you think he’s even going to read this blog until he’s already well on the road to recovery? It’s in the spirit of what it is.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CkxCHybM6Ek&feature=related
And actually, when I called the hospital to check on his condition, I really *did* ask the nurse if it would be sanitary if I brought in a Danny Ferry poster to hang up over his bed. She didn’t get it in the least, but it gave me a chuckle.
June 25th, 2008 at 11:16 pm
Brian…(if anyone close to Brian is reading this, please pass it on) my prayers are with you.
June 26th, 2008 at 8:57 am
Get well Brian.
Hopefully, you’ll be feeling betting when Danny drafts Ryan Anderson.
June 26th, 2008 at 11:08 am
Brian-get well soon my friend, you’re a great beat reporter and the best source of insight on the Cleveland Cavaliers, period.
I’m with those above who’ve referenced Mario Chalmers-he’s surely worth a #19 gamble as a PG given the skill set and pedigree he brings. We can then free up our assets (Andy V. and the expiring contracts of Wally, et al) to get Michael Redd and a pick or a big man throw-in to develop longer term.
God Bless Brian.
June 26th, 2008 at 1:45 pm
Gibson has only been in the league for 2 years, he has time to develop his skills. How many players are as good as they will ever be after just 2 years in the NBA? Not many, give him another year or 2 and lets see where he is then before we start labeling him as a one-trick pony. I don’t think he will ever be an all-star, but I do think he will be able to be a quality starter or 6th man in this league and considering he was a 2nd round pick that is pretty good
June 26th, 2008 at 2:12 pm
Ricky-I agree, Gibson should not be traded. He’s got a serious NBA skill with his deadly shot, and he’ll be a great role player on any good team. His game was picking up before the injuries-he was showing flashes of getting the hoop. He’s a great teammate, picks up the crowd, and has a positive attitude to go along with his gleaming smile. Juri Welsch he ain’t. He just might hit the big shot in the big game someday just like other such deadeye role-shooters have.
Hold this card, don’t fold.
June 26th, 2008 at 4:48 pm
Shooting skills can be developed. But if you don’t have pure ballhandling, driving and passing skills coming into the league, then you never will. Gibson will never be anything more than a poor man’s backup combo guard with a nice outside shot. If he works hard enough at it for a few years, maybe he’ll eventually learn to shoot when he’s not stationary. If he can be unloaded in a package, who cares.
And while I’m on on the subject, who cares if he was a second-round pick? When all is said and done with his career, that’s pretty much what he should have been. He’s a dime a dozen player. Just because some kid can make some three-point shots doesn’t make the draft selection brilliant. Short three-point specialists who play mediocre to poor defense are always available out there. All anybody has to do is go to basketball court in Europe and shoot a tranquilizer dart at whichever guy you want. Frankly, I’d rather have Trajan Langdon than Gibson. Seriously. A better shooter than Gibson and now far more experienced, even if that experience wasn’t NBA experience.
Come to think of it, Damon Jones, Devin Brown and Ben Wallace weren’t even drafted at all.
But it’s all moot, given Ferry’s track record, Gibson isn’t going anywhere. I think there is an underlying self-serving aspect to this, since Ferry can always say after Gibson makes a three-point shot, “See, I drafted him. Oh, and I also rented Flip Murray for 28 games.” Kinda deflects the local media and fan attention from the general awfulness of his other judgment calls.
June 26th, 2008 at 4:55 pm
Wrong-shooting skills cannot be developed, only honed.
You’ve obviously never played the game, intramural or otherwise. Pure shooters are acquired, not developed.
June 26th, 2008 at 5:30 pm
Get well, Brian.
June 26th, 2008 at 6:25 pm
Alan, why dont you shut up for a while? No, seriously, I insist. Between the inappropriate humor and the tired garbage you continue to spew, I think many on this board are in agreement that you need a timeout. The sad thing about it? You actually have the nerve to call Daniel Gibson a “one trick pony”. Talk about the pot and the kettle.
In baseball, you can never have enough pitching. In basketball, you can never have enough size. Assuming Andy V is gone afte this season at the very latest (fact), and knowing that older players are more injury-prone than younger ones, wouldnt it make sense to pick up a guy like Hibbert? If not him, there are some bigs in this draft who can run and are athletic specimens. They need to get younger up front, there’s no question about that.
Many of you seem to believe the Cavs arent getting a true IMPACT player at 19, so wouldnt it make sense to bolster your depth at a position where you’re getting awfully old? I personally like a young scoring 2 guard, but if we’re going to put on a full court press for Michael Redd, then drafting big makes sense…
June 26th, 2008 at 6:25 pm
Best wishes and God bless, Windy. You’re the best.
June 26th, 2008 at 6:30 pm
Randy, shooting skills cannot be developed? Well, then how do you explain Karl Malone at the free throw line? Or Rip Hamilton’s ability to go out farther than mid-range? And you don’t think Rajon Rondo isn’t going to practice, practice, practice and practice and will develop a nice consistent outside shot? Perfect examples.
And actually, you’re very wrong. I used to play basketball quite a bit. I even once stole a ball from a St. Joseph’s Clark Kellogg, my one claim to my non-fame as a very poor man’s white southpaw Muggsy Bogues. Everytime I stare at my fat sagging dimpled ass in the mirror after I shower, I remember that moment. But that wasn’t at all my point. My point was who gives a damn if a dime a dozen player like Gibson is unloaded. If Ferry can improve the team, then unload everybody but James if that’s what it takes.
There are a million Gibsons out there in the world. Any decent scout can find one if he looks hard enough, and you don’t need to find it in an NBA draft. It’s why somebody like Damon Jones can spend so many years in the league. Or Craig Hodges. Or Steve Kerr. Or whoever. It’s why somebody like J.J. Redick will always have a home on somebody’s bench.
June 26th, 2008 at 6:47 pm
Brian, we’ve been missing your reporting on this draft. Hoping and praying you get better soon! We miss you buddy!
June 26th, 2008 at 6:50 pm
Brian, please get well soon! I hope you are already doing better. Myself, I could really use the calming effect you seem to have during these situations. The messageboards are going crazy over trades and the draft and I am getting wrapped up in the anxiousness of it all and could use some common sense and reality from a great reporter such as yourself.
I am sending you positive thoughts!
June 26th, 2008 at 7:35 pm
I noticed Jim Paxson is sitting down at the Bulls draft table. When the time comes to make the first selection, I wonder if he’ll push his brother away from the speakerphone and scream, “WE’LL TAKE THAT HIBBERT FELLOW!”
June 26th, 2008 at 7:45 pm
Brian,
Hang in there. You are dearly missed by tens of thousands around the country. Your work ethic, coupled with all of our good thoughts, are going to pull you through this.
June 26th, 2008 at 8:11 pm
Gallinari to the Knicks… that pretty much seals the deal for LeBron in New York doesnt it? What a pick, wow…
June 26th, 2008 at 9:51 pm
Yes, Josh. That’s just what James cares about, who the Knicks draft in the summer of 2008.
It amazes me that you, like all of America, has no freakin’ clue who this Italian kid even is, and yet you put in your two cents about their pick.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Rwdsjq3WLE
June 26th, 2008 at 10:19 pm
Solid pick, right? I mean, after all, his overrated coach played ball with his daddy, so that has to be a slam-dunk! All this defense of a guy who’s European, Alan? Really? After you so brilliantly described all European players as “garbage” on this very site? Now THAT’S rich…
I know he had a heckuva workout agains a chair, made a bunch of wide open shots in an empty gym, and demanded to play in a big market, which evidently was enough to convince the new Knicks to make another fantastic first-round pick. What’s next Alan, a heart-felt defense of the Renaldo Balkman pick?
You’re right, LeBron doesnt care who the Knicks pick, because he’s a Cavalier and will be in Cleveland for a VERY long time.
June 26th, 2008 at 10:56 pm
Not that you ever quote anybody accurately, Josh, but what I wrote is most Europeans players suck, and simply take roster spots from similar sucky American players. Given the way this draft went, general managers and scouts have come to this realization, and the foreign invasion fad has ended. I don’t know if this Italian kid will be good, I don’t know if this Italian kid will suck. The point being neither do you, nor did you have a foggy clue as to who he even was.
This draft means nothing to James. Next season’s draft mean nothing to James. By virtue of trading Richard Jefferson’s contract, the Nets are now officially in the James sweepstakes. Now all that’s left to do is trade Randolph’s contract.
But keep those pom-poms waving, Josh. You’ve got cute legs.
June 26th, 2008 at 11:25 pm
Ferry still hasn’t done anything to improve this team. He’d better pull the trigger on a deal to bring a legit scoring threat to Cleveland or he won’t be able to pick apples with his wife with a clear head.
June 26th, 2008 at 11:49 pm
I have to admit that I don’t watch much college basketball, except for last year when OSU went to the championship game. I never heard of this Hickson kid, so I can’t make a judgement on him. Bilas at ESPN had him picked as the 20th best player. He does have an NBA build - not like most of the string beans that got drafted. Who knows - he could be the next Charles Barkley or he could be out of the league in 2 years. I was expecting us to make a big trade tonight. I’m not disappointed that it didn’t happen. We may still do something, though - who knows. I wouldn’t mind seeing us go with the same group one more year to see how far we can go and then clear some cap space for next summer. Then we can see who we need to acquire to take us further if we don’t win it next year.
June 26th, 2008 at 11:50 pm
Why do you need a clear head in order to pick apples?
June 27th, 2008 at 12:18 am
Alan, good grief. You’re such a huge New York fan, I thought you’d be able to tell the difference between the Knicks and the Nets. Randolph plays for the Knicks, your favorite team.
Gallinari kinda rhymes with Bargnani, which also sort of sounds like BUST. Great start to the Donny Walsh era. Probably the worst pick in the first round.
Now, just because the Knicks and/or the Nets have cap space doesnt mean LeBron is going anywhere. Believe what you want to believe.
With all that said, I cant for the life of me figure out why the Cavs wouldnt go out and grab another pick to get CDR or Bill Walker. The Cavs have the worst scoring backcourt in the NBA and have for quite some time. This team could have developed a 2 guard out of this draft, like a Chalmers or Roberts, but decided not to. Stupid…
June 27th, 2008 at 1:12 am
Randolph and Jefferson have been on two different teams? I did not know that. Gosh, thank you for clearing that up, Josh.
By the way, when did the Knicks become my favorite team? I must have missed the memo. Just a couple of weeks ago, you said the Celtics were my favorite team. In two weeks it will be CSKA Moscow that’s my favorite team. Whatever fits your fancy, I guess. Just don’t forget to shake your bum.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=_b-gTsYzLVI
June 27th, 2008 at 2:01 am
You’re the dolt who dropped this piece of gold/crap…
“By virtue of trading Richard Jefferson’s contract, the Nets are now officially in the James sweepstakes. Now all that’s left to do is trade Randolph’s contract.”
Now, is there another Randolph I havent heard of? Playing for the Nets? Or are you just every bit as senile as I think you are?
Oh and no more videos of your love interests ok? We all know how you like to get down. Enough already.
June 27th, 2008 at 5:48 am
Uhh … obviously implicit in my two sentences, you goof, is that it’s now not just going to be a one borough race for James. It’s now unofficially a two-borough race, both Brooklyn and Manhattan as opposed to just Manhattan. You are that very special one in a million who couldn’t read what my sentences clearly meant. But, after watching this inspirational video, I can now truly respect and understand why you always find yourself so consistently challenged.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=5Y9k-U67FNg
June 27th, 2008 at 10:10 am
Thoughts on the 2008 NBA Draft:
- I have been trying to lower people’s expectations for the 19th pick. People kept talking about how good Chris Douglas-Roberts or Courtney Lee or any number of guys would be on this team, when in all likelihood the player picked at #19 will be out of the league in two years. It was foolish to get your hopes up over that low a pick.
- That being said, it would be nice if Danny Ferry looked like he was *trying* to make this team better. There is absolutely nothing about J.J. Hickson that makes me think that he can develop into a rotation player on a good team. Maybe he will surprise me, but he looks like a player who was able to overpower people in college, but whose general lack of basketball skill will be exposed in the NBA. I do like the fact that he’s not one of those string-bean college bigs that will get abused at the next level, but this is a guy you find as a steal in the second round, not one of the top 19 players in the Draft.
- The best the Cavs can really hope for from Hickson is that he becomes a player like Paul Millsap, Brandon Bass, or Carl Landry. Those guys are nice players, but, y’know, they were all drafted in the second round.
- I think the Cavs were really counting on Hibbert being there. When he wasn’t, Ferry was forced to decide between the best talent available, and adding support to his front line. He chose the latter. While I will always endorse strengthening the frontcourt, I think the Cavs left a number of more talented players on the board.
Go Cavs.
Mike C.
June 27th, 2008 at 10:25 am
The following players were moved in the last few days:
- Jermaine O’Neal
- T.J. Ford
- Mike Miller
- Richard Jefferson
- Jarrett Jack
- And the Richard Jefferson trade makes it much less likely that Michael Redd is heading to Cleveland. On the whole, the ways the Cavs can get markedely better going into next year are getting fewer and fewer. It’s a frustrating day for this Cavs fan.
June 27th, 2008 at 10:39 am
Missed your draft coverage then wondered why and figured out you were sick - get well soon!
June 27th, 2008 at 10:44 am
I’ll make a wild prediction here … after December 5, Varejao will be included in a trade for Raymond Felton.
June 27th, 2008 at 11:45 am
i actually agree with alan t for once. after charlotte made a bad pick for dj augustin at #9, that has to make felton expendable. a trade involving those guys makes sense. it still wouldnt surprise me to see something go on with the bucks since Yi was an obstacle to making that trade (both he and AV are dan fegan guys) and has since been traded to the nets. if im danny ferry, id be on the phone every day with chris wallace in memphis trying to fleece him, especially after he made yet another bad trade. that guy makes jim paxson look good.
June 27th, 2008 at 11:58 am
I’m not a huge Felton fan, but it would be an affordable option, and probably an upgrade.
If everyone agrees that the Cavs need to upgrade at the point, then why all the love for Gibson and West? Keep one, but move the other in a sign-and-trade to bring back some more scoring help. Neither of those guys is good enough at creating their own shots, or creating shots for others.
June 27th, 2008 at 1:11 pm
Alan, Ferry needs a clear head to most everything. Do you think he had a “clear head” when he picked Shannon Brown?
June 27th, 2008 at 1:14 pm
lecavalier - if you look back at that draft, there really wasnt anyone taken after shannon brown of consequence. nearly everyone taken after him is a nobody. jordan farmar is probably the only decent option, but he is nothing special. daniel gibson (ferry took him). paul milsap (nothing special). leon lowe (nothing special). so missing on brown at #25 when there really wasnt anyone major left, isnt a huge deal. its not like missing on a lottery pick by taking diop, trajan langdon, chris mihm, luke jackson, dajuan wagner, et al.
June 27th, 2008 at 2:26 pm
I like the Hickson pick. He seems to always do a little better than people expect and he’s happy finishing close to the basket, which is what the Cavs need most in my estimation.
Of course he’s raw because he’s a big man who’s only 19 years old. But if he’s got good hands, he could be just the right type. I’d much rather have him than Hibbert.
June 27th, 2008 at 2:36 pm
Joe,
Leon Powe and Paul Millsap are “nothing special”?
Wake up! Brown is a D-leaguer right now and both of those guys are great bench rebounders.
Give them a little credit.
June 27th, 2008 at 3:28 pm
i can clarify - leon powe and paul millsap are both bench players. if either starts for your team, then you are in trouble. both are nice energy guys off the bench but are not starters by any means. i meant nothing special in that either can be part of an 8-9 man rotation and should not be the first guy off the bench. sure, both would have been better picks than shannon brown with hindsight 20/20, but at the time of the draft, the general consensus nationally was that shannon brown was a steal at #25. turns out he stunk but at #25 you cant expect for much. to come out of that draft with a #25 pick and a second rounder, have 1 be a legit contributor and the other be a bust is something i can live with.
again - the point is to miss at #25 with no real “stars” taken after that is not a big deal and not nearly as bad as missing on a top 14 guy like paxson did annually.
June 27th, 2008 at 4:20 pm
Of note is that people like Marty Burns and Chad Ford have given the Cavs a pretty good grade for drafting Hickson, saying he was one of the few players left with a chance to be something special.
I can’t believe people are still trying to give Ferry a hard time for Shannon Brown. Most analysts liked the picked, and the vast majority of the players taken after him haven done little to nothing. that he stuck with the team long enough to deal him probably makes him about average. It’s a crap shoot once you’re out of the lottery - it was the 25th freaking pick! Ferry obviously likes to take players he thinks can develop, and those guys come with risk - and those are the players you take in that position. Brown flopped.
Seriously, I have issues with Ferry, but his draft history isn’t one of them. There simply isn’t much to go on. His highest pick so far is this year’s 19th. His only other first round pick has been 25th pick for Brown. Other than that, he’s drafted Gibson (42)& Ugboaja (55th). I don’t think out out of three from those positions is that bad, honesty. He basically traded Jiri Welsch for Andriuskevicious’ (sp?) rights. Anyone want to criticize him for that? And some people this Darnell Jackson has solid NBA potential, too. Sasha Kaun will probably never play for us, but we only paid cash for that, so who cares.
Mike C, I think the Bucks acquiring Richard Jefferson increases their desire to deal Redd, since they also drafted Joe Alexander. Either they bury Alexander on their bench, or they trade Redd - if not before the start of the season, definitely by the deadline, assuming they are a losing team again.
I don’t think it takes a rocket scientist to project AV to the Bobcats for Felton. I thought for sure theywere going to announce a trade last night. That Augustin pick didn’t make a lot of sense. Why not draft Lopez and start him or Sean May with Okafur, Wallace, Richardson, and Felton? Then they draft the French project? Seems weird, especially sense MJ, Brown, & Felton are all UNC guys.
June 27th, 2008 at 7:49 pm
Ferry will never say it but I think the Cavs’ strategy in that draft was to select two guards (Gibson and Brown) and hope one of them sticks. If one of them busts— big deal, no big loss.
Also, to the one that said shooting skills can’t be developed. Michael Redd is testament to the fact they can be developed. Coming into the NBA the knock on him was his range. At OSU he was known as an athletic guard with great body control who could take it to the rim. Redd entered the league and remade himself into a 3 pt threat.
June 28th, 2008 at 2:50 am
The knock on Redd was that he played more like a forward, and would be undersized in the NBA. It seemed to me his ball handling and size were more in question. He also had the misfortune of staying school a year too long, which in this era just gives scouts and GMs more time to find reasons not to like you.
June 28th, 2008 at 2:59 pm
Just read that the Cavs tried to trade Wally & his expiring contract straight up for Vince Carter on draft day…
http://www.fannation.com/truth_and_rumors/view/55552
July 1st, 2008 at 4:58 pm
[...] “Getting A Handle On The Varejao Rumors” [Brian Windhorst] [...]
July 1st, 2008 at 10:12 pm
I see that Baron Davis is going to the Clippers…..that scumbag. Why not the Cavs?
Yet one more missed opportunity for Danny Ferry.
July 2nd, 2008 at 12:57 am
Brittle Fingers - in your haste to bash Ferry, you haven’t explained where he was supposed to come up with the at least (considering LA is his hometown, too) $15, 000,000 worth of cap room it took to sign Baron Davis.
July 2nd, 2008 at 2:01 am
[...] the Lakers’ car flag.PG: Brew Hoop. Poll: Who would win if the Celtics played Team USA?6th: Brian Windhorst, Akron Beacon Journal. Getting a handle on these Andy Varejao trade rumors.7th: The Sports Hernia. A hilarious look back [...]
July 2nd, 2008 at 7:39 pm
Chuck, actually I don’t think it was that much cap room that was necessary. A lot, but not $15 million, I don’t think. But whatever it was, the underlying point is valid, and every single move that Ferry makes and doesn’t make it still a direct result of that infamous mentally deranged summer of 2005. Ferry’s very own Summer of Sam. Spike Lee oughta do a movie about it. I’d see it.
July 2nd, 2008 at 11:22 pm
According to ESPN.com’s Rumor Central, the Cavs are positioning themselves to offer James Posey a 3-4 year deal for their mid-level exception. Good idea.
Alan, you drunk. Baron Davis, Elton Brand, etc are West Coast guys. They werent coming to Cleveland no matter how much money was involved. Get a clue.
Danny Ferry is doing everything in his power to improve the team. If there is any way humanly possible the Cavs can land Michael Redd, it will happen. In the case of most of these high-profile free agents, there wasnt.
July 3rd, 2008 at 9:09 am
If Ferry gives Posey a full midlevel deal, he’s an idiot. You really want to pay a dollar for dollar tax for a bench guy whose value is overinflated because he just hit a few shots in the playoffs? So when we have a chance to trade for a max money guy at the trade deadline and Gilbert is having second thoughts because we are even FURTHER over the luxury tax line, you’re going to be happy with the James Posey signing.
There is absolutely no reason we should be signing anyone this offseason. They need to be in the best possible position to make a trade at the deadline and going further over the tax isn’t the way to do it.
July 3rd, 2008 at 9:25 am
Uhh .. Josh, no shit. Davis and Brand weren’t coming to Cleveland? Wow. Thanks for the knowledge.
July 3rd, 2008 at 10:04 am
Oh, I neglected to ask, Josh, your dopey post kind of made me forget. Precisely how is Elton Brand a “West Coast guy?” He grew up in New York, his wife is from North Carolina, and he once signed a free agent offer sheet to play in Florida.
In your history book, was Gandhi a swashbuckling pirate or a bareback bronco riding cowboy? I’m curious.
July 3rd, 2008 at 11:00 am
Um, because he wants to make movies alan…I’d say that makes him “west coast” for our purposes.
July 3rd, 2008 at 10:56 pm
That Japanese guy who played for the Indians made movies, too.
All things being equal, I don’t think Brand would have any objection to playing in Miami. He could hang at Sly Stallone’s villa.
July 4th, 2008 at 1:03 am
Brand is a “West coast guy” because he has a movie production company in LA and currently resides there, you clown.
I would give Posey the deal. He’s a lock down defender, athletic as all get-out, and can knock down a 3. What’s not to like? He has a chance to start here, and he’s from Ohio. All this bitching about Ferry not improving the team, and now he actually has a little money to spend and he’s being ripped for that too? Doesnt make much sense. I suppose you’d rather start the year with Wally the stiff and Sasha?
Alan, I’m almost convinced. Videos of male cheerleaders, constant references to Kaz Tadano’s gay Japanese porn exploits, using terms like “ultra-fabulous” and “bareback cowboy”… I mean, are you gay? Just come out with it…
July 4th, 2008 at 9:05 am
Josh, there’s nothing wrong with James Posey, I just don’t think he’s worth $11 MILLION!!!!! a year. I mean seriously, when ownership is debating whether or not to take on bad contracts to get whatever max money player they will be targeting at the deadline next year, do you really want the extra $11 million a year we’re paying for a bench player to be the thing that prevents the deal from happening?
When you are a team over the tax line, you have to be twice as careful with your spending. Just go ask the Knicks how another “lockdown defender,” Jared Jeffries, worked out for them.
July 5th, 2008 at 2:56 am
No one’s offering Posey $11M a year, biff.
July 5th, 2008 at 3:11 am
From what I’ve been reading about the Cavs leading up to draft day and after the draft, it looks like their strategy is to sign James Posey at the mid-level exception range to have him the “sixth man” coming off the bench and then acquire either Michael Redd or Vince Carter via trade to start at the shooting guard spot alongside Lebron using Wally and/or Andy & Sasha & picks if necessary as trading chips. I don’t have a problem with signing Posey at the mid-level exception range since that’s what we’re paying AV and I’d say Posey would be just as valuable and maybe more valuable than Andy. Yeah, the luxury tax thing will sting a little, but don’t we have the possibility to remove the 7 1/2 million of Eric Snow’s salary off the cap this year if he gets approved for disability retirement? If so, would this amount be enough to cause any reduction in our luxury tax amount?
July 5th, 2008 at 10:59 am
Its called the luxury tax Chuck…..look into it
July 6th, 2008 at 3:35 am
Biff, I’m pretty sure I know what the luxury tax is - but nobody’s offering Posey the full exception, as far as I’ve seen. The only contract I’ve seen rumored for Posey so far is 3 years 12 million from Boston - and even that’s been denied. Boston, Cleveland, and the Lakers are Luxury tax teams that are supposed to be pursuing Posey. Orlando, Washington, New Orleans and Golden State are non-luxury tax teams with supposed interest. I would think he goes to one of them, since I don’t think he’ll get the full exception from any luxury tax team, including the Cavs - unless the get themselves under the threshold somehow.
July 6th, 2008 at 9:34 am
Yes, but he’s not exactly signed for the full midlevel yet either. With the free agent market this thin, one of the GMs of the teams you mentioned (we’re talking about a group that has spent 127 million on rashard lewis and 111 million on gilbert arenas in the last year alone) will crap the bed and give him the full midlevel. So, I think if Ferry really wanted to sign him, it would require the patented panic move full midlevel deal.
July 7th, 2008 at 4:47 am
With the cap room the Cavs have on the way, I would think some of it going to a bona fide glue player who has won 2 championships would be a good thing. Maybe I’m nuts, but Posey really has no holes, and he’s exceptional defensively. Picture a quicker Larry Huges with about 20 times more heart at half the price. Ummm, yes please…
I guess the question is, short of some miraculous deal where Milwaukee hands over one of their 2 best players, how are the Cavs going to improve the roster? Considering the way everyone on the planet seems to think the Cavs have a 2 (maybe 3) year window to win a title, I would think any upgrade would be welcomed. I dont think LeBron is going anywhere, but I’m sick of that conversation, so let’s stick to scenarios that are actually a possibility.
Or we can keep wasting dozens upon dozens of comments on guys like Baron Davis, Elton Brand, Antawn Jamison, or any of the other marquee names who wont be coming to Cleveland except when the schedule dictates.
July 7th, 2008 at 10:17 am
You sit and wait for sellers at the trade deadline (there are bound to be at least a few). I like that option better than giving a 4+ year deal to an aging bench player.
July 7th, 2008 at 6:57 pm
Posey’s a decent role player who plays LeBron’s position. He’d be right there with Pavlovic, Devin Brown and Wally S. next year, playing a lot in some games then mysteriously disappearing from the rotation. I wouldn’t doubt that his clutch shooting would mysteriously disappear, either.
Unless the Cavs can wrangle someone significant in a trade, I’d just as soon they do nothing, like Biff says.
July 9th, 2008 at 6:22 pm
Brand is playing for Philadelphia. So who’s “the clown” now, Josh? Josh, still wearing those zany oversized suspenders and those big red shoes, still available for children’s parties. Maybe I oughta hire the pom-pom kid, my daughter loves to be entertained.
July 9th, 2008 at 6:26 pm
Biff, why couldn’t Ferry do that in 2005? That’s the question without a rational answer that will haunt Cleveland’s NBA franchise forever. Or until the franchise moves to Seattle, whichever comes first. I’m guessing the latter.
July 10th, 2008 at 12:48 am
Here’s a fun hypo:
You are the GM of the Cavs. Kevin Pritchard calls and offers you Oden, Roy, and Aldridge for Lebron. Take all the fan mutiny and economic issues out of the equation. Consider only talent and the fact that Lebron could leave in two years. Do you make that trade?
I know my answer…
July 10th, 2008 at 7:21 pm
Hi Biff, I think I proposed a similar question several months ago in the comments to an article. This is a tough one. If I knew for sure he was leaving, I’d do it in a heartbeat. If I knew for sure he was staying and signing a long-term max contract, I’d say no way. Not knowing one way or the other, though, it would be a very difficult decision. With all of the rumors going around, I’d have to lean slightly towards yes, make the deal now, but I could change my mind tomorrow.
July 10th, 2008 at 10:40 pm
I think I would only do it if you could somehow guarantee that Oden would be healthy going forward. If that were the case though, I might do it even if I suspected Lebron was going to stay.
July 10th, 2008 at 11:51 pm
I’m still not completely sold yet about Oden being a superstar player in the NBA. I think he could be anywhere from an average center to a superstar. Being an OSU alum, I watched Oden quite a bit in college. I could see most of the games even here in South Florida since the Buckeyes were always ranked very high. I didn’t know what to think watching him play. Sometimes he would look quick, athletic and powerful, and other times I thought he lumbered and looked slower than Z. I realize that we didn’t get to see many of his assortment of moves in the paint because of the wrist injury, so in that way it was hard to judge his offensive skills. When I heard the hype about him before I saw him play, I expected to see this combination of David Robinson and Shaq, but I guess I was disappointed when I saw him in action. Granted, he was still good, I’m not so sure that he’ll be great, even if healthy. Plus I’m not so sure he has the desire to be great - weren’t there always stories about him wanting to be a dentist? I guess that’s why I wouldn’t make the trade if I knew Lebron was staying - it would be too risky to give up an all-time great hall of famer for 2 good NBA players and a big maybe in Oden.
July 11th, 2008 at 12:39 am
i’m assuming any swingman we add takes Devin Brown’s spot, so they need to be an upgrade over him. Posey would be cool, but I just don’t get the feeling he’s coming here - there’s a lot of competition for him, he can return to a champion, etc. Matt Barnes is kind of flying under the radar a little. He’s a guy that may be willing to sign a cheap multi year deal just so he can have a little stability and peace of mind, and he offer’s a lot of the same things Posey does - long, hustling defender, toughness, three point shooting, and he’s a good finisher that is aggressive going to the basket. He’s a bit of a gunner, but that may be because he’s been in Don Nelson’s system the last two years. He’s a better player than his stats suggest. He’s also comfortable in any role he’s put in. If the Cavs are just going to add role players and not make some larger move, we could do worse than Barnes.
July 11th, 2008 at 8:10 am
Uhh … Tim. The whole point of that hypothetical is that you don’t know if LeBron is staying. So saying, “I guess that’s why I wouldn’t make the trade if I knew Lebron was staying” kinda defeats the entire hypothetical.
Of course it’s probable that James is gone, and given that those three players mentioned are all on their rookie contracts and restricted, and thus all would be far more apt to sign extensions than those on their veteran contracts and unrestricted, I think it’s obvious what a prudent person would do. It’s either that, or just move the franchise to Seattle early.
Besides, Oden says a lot of things. It’s what makes him such a hoot, that is one funny kid. Although, I think he’s actually my age. Or even Ronald Reagan’s age, and Reagan is dead.
Hell, when O’Neal was coming out of college, he was talking about being a cop. Or being whatever. Who cares if Oden was goofing on growing up wanting to be a dentist. Little kids want to be a fireman, so what? All I know is that Oden was only 18, 19 years old, has years of dedicated weightlifting ahead of him, played and dominated with one freakin’ hand, and it was his OFF hand. Yeah, I know it was against college kids, but still. I mean, can you imagine Ilgauskas being forced to play with his left hand only? Oy vey.
Plus Roy and Aldridge? Come on. It’s a no-brainer.
July 11th, 2008 at 10:44 am
I’m gonna have to agree with alan t on this one….of course, if the Cavs trade for a legit second scoring option this year and win a title while the Blazers get knocked out in the Western semis, I’ll probably be re-thinking my decision….
Ok, that was a nice break from reality. I’ll stick with my decision to make the trade.
July 11th, 2008 at 11:21 am
There’s no way I’d trade LeBron even though I believe Oden will be the best center in the NBA in short order, at least defensively, if his knee holds up.
LeBron is now bigger than the team and losing him would send the franchise into the toilet for a while, no matter who they got in return.
Hypotheticals are fun but I wonder if the Cavs are trying to do anything at all these days.
I wouldn’t be surprised if some players from the Bobcats get shipped for low value. Okafor wants to get paid, Larry Brown is mighty flaky and impatient, and MJ isn’t exactly a personnel genius.
I also have to wonder if Atlanta might be thinking Josh Smith is somewhat expendable as Al Horford could be a better player as a forward, next to someone like Varejao or even Big Z.
The ABJ has apparently given up on covering the team while BW is out, but I’m missing those ‘working the phones’ apologias.
July 11th, 2008 at 12:44 pm
larry, the obvious caveat of the hypo was that you had to take the franchise killing fan reaction out of the equation. We were just evaluating talent and contract status. In terms of your analysis, Oden wasn’t really the key to the deal for me. I’m not so sure any one of those guys is so much more important than the other. I just look at it as a chance to get 3 guys who you almost know are going to be solid pros and at least 2 of the 3 have a legit chance to be stars.
I’d say thanks but no-thanks to the bobcats. I’d take Okefor for the right money but you’re not going to get him for that. As much as we need to get younger up front, acquiring more brittle bodies with limited offensive skills isn’t the best way to go about it.
July 15th, 2008 at 1:07 am
Is anyone still in here? I just watched the Cavs’ Summer league Opener against the Knicks and had a few thoughts….
JJ Hickson looked pretty good today. He was very aggressive going to the basket, hit a couple mid range shots, and made a couple decent moves in the post. His defense was solid, oo. It’s only one summer league game, but honestly, he doesn’t look like a D-League player at all. I was impressed that he had variety to his game. He looks NBA ready. it will be interesting to see him play against bigger defenses, but he his very athletic and doesn’t play undersized at all.
Darnell Jackson on the other hand, needs some work. Defensively and on the boards he was okay, but seems to have a pretty raw offensive repertoire - and bad hands. Heading to the D-League.
Robert Traylor looked great in the first half, and ran out of gas. Surprise! He looks like he’s in better shape, but still not conditioned enough. I miss the beard. That being said, I bet he plays his way back into the NBA this year, if not with the Cavs, then somewhere else. He’s still got soft hands, passes well, and can score around the basket.
The other Cavs from last year, Billy Thomas and Lance Allred, looked exactly the same - meaning they did nothing to impress.
Clay Tucker looked pretty decent, but it’s hard for me to imagine any of the guards from this squad making the team. That being said, he was aggressive and creative going to the basket and hit jump shots. He seems like he has a 10 day contract as an injury replacement in his not too distant future.
Other players in the game hit a shot here, made a drive there, but didn’t really do anything to stand out.
Anybody else watch the game & care to share some thoughts?
July 15th, 2008 at 10:00 am
Thanks for the update Chuck. I liked the Hickson pick and hope he can consistently produce this summer. Hopefully, Tractor can be at least an end of the bench guy and between the two the Cavs will feel comfortable packaging Varejao in a trade.
A sad state of affairs, though, when hopes ride on a journeyman coming back from heart surgery.
July 15th, 2008 at 12:13 pm
larry - i highly doubt anyone’s hopes ride on tractor traylor. id bet that he wont be playing for the cavs at all this season and his inclusion on the roster was more of a favor on some level. tractor can get his foot back in the door, see where he stands against potential nba competition and have a tryout for other teams in the league that can use a backup PF/C. regardless, hes probably a better backup than dwayne jones was.
July 15th, 2008 at 2:55 pm
Joe - I have my doubts that Traylor can make the team, too - but like you, I’d rather see him than Dwayne Jones. Hickson had a huge dunk last night, too.
All the press was for Gallinari’s Knicks debut - but Hickson was easily the best player on the court. He tweeked his ankle a little, and played through it after getting it re-taped, which I thought was a good sign. I look forward to watching Wednesday’s game to see if he can follow it up, but I’m optimistic he already brings more to the table than Dwayne Jones or Cedric Simmons did.
I found it hugely annoying that it was a MSG Network broadcast, they did nothing but focus on the Knicks players and interview Quentin Richardson and Starbury (nice head tattoo, dude!). They didn’t even bother to learn most of the Cleveland players names, which really sucked, ‘cuz I sure couldn’t tell a Clay Tucker from a Michael Greene when the game started. It’s especially annoying since all the other games were done by the NBATV combo, Rick Kamla and Snapper Jones, who at know all the players and don’t have a stake in either team - for the basketball junkie, they do a pretty good summer league game.
July 16th, 2008 at 12:21 am
I think it’s incredible that the Clippers got Marcus Camby, who would be the second-best player if he played for the Cavs, for literally nothing. All they have to do is exchange their second-round pick for the Nuggets’ 2010 second-round pick if the Clippers will pick earlier in 2010. Whoopie.
Ferry again diligently working the phones. Seriously, is that giant douchebag taking another summer off?
July 16th, 2008 at 8:20 am
Ferry’s got the Tractor coming back from heart surgery, alan. In any case, Camby blocks too many shots to fit into the Cavs’ scheme.
July 16th, 2008 at 10:39 am
from what i understand, the trade couldnt have worked with the cavs because denver did not want to bring on any contracts. the only way cleveland (or any other team really) could have made that trade would have been to trade contract for contract at an equal dollar value (or whatever the percentage is in accordance with NBA rules). the clippers were far enough under the salary cap to allow them to take on the contract without having to give up an equal value contract(s) in return. i could be wrong and i am sure Alan T will sarcastically correct me if so.
July 16th, 2008 at 10:54 am
That’s right, joe, but alan never lets things like “facts” or “reason” get in the the way of Ferry bashing. The Clippers were way under the cap because they had a crap team that lost it’s best two players. Otherwise, they can’t make that deal. Thankfully, we weren’t in their position.
July 16th, 2008 at 11:12 am
alan t - to answer your question, looks like ferry hasnt taken the summer off as he has signed gibson to a new contract. let the over-sarcastic comments to downplay the signing begin! lol
July 16th, 2008 at 1:20 pm
Yes, yes, Elton Brand, Marcus Camby… all plausible options when you’re $20 million over the cap right? I’m sure these teams are seriously pondering Ferry’s offer of Andy, Sasha, and an autographed Usher CD for one of their 3 best players. Alan, Ferry’s hands are pretty tied at this point, and I’m sure he’s trying anyway, but there really isnt a move out there. Get it through your thick skull.
Besides, teams in the NBA arent stupid. If you were an Eastern Conference executive, would you trade LeBron any help whatsoever? Of course not. It’s pretty obvious that if the Cavs ever did find LeBron some serviceable help, the Cavs would win a title, and probably in convincing fashion. THEREFORE, the rest of the franchises in the NBA are going to refrain from dealing with the Cleveland Cavaliers unless they get one helluva sweetheart deal. It’s simple really. If a team has the best player in the league, why give him any help if you can avoid it?
Of course, the simple-minded and elderly out there will certainly continue to blame Ferry for all of the Cavs’ ills, much like idiots blame the President for bad weather. It’s an especially sacred ritual in Cleveland, where we chase every good coach and/or GM out of town far before their prime, only to watch them reach their fullest potential elsewhere.
If the Cavs maintain what they have, possibly add a midlevel player, and look for a deal at the deadline, that might be the best they can do until Wallace and co come off the cap. Is that really so bad?
July 16th, 2008 at 2:02 pm
andy, sasha AND an autographed Usher CD? hmmmm. too bad isiah thomas isnt still calling the shots in NY.
July 16th, 2008 at 2:48 pm
Ferry tied his own hands both in regard to the salary cap and the lack of tradeable talent on hand.
And I thought Brand wouldn’t come to Cleveland simply because he was a west coast guy?
July 16th, 2008 at 3:05 pm
ferry may have tied his hands on the salary cap, but again, nearly every team in the league has cap issues. every offseason has only a couple teams with a tremendous amount of cap space. its not possible to have significant cap space EVERY offseason.
the lack of tradeable talent is only ferry’s fault to a small extent. this team had no viable tradeable talent which date back to the 4-5 years prior to Ferry coming here. when ferry got here, the team had absolutely nothing to show for Paxson’s regime (except for lebron of course). thats where we could have gotten tradeable talent, and paxson’s annual mockery of the draft left the team with nothing to show for 5-6 years worth of drafting.
July 16th, 2008 at 3:26 pm
Oh, please. I never said the Cavs could of acquired Brand or Camby. Ferry precluded all possibility. (By the way, Josh, good call on that Brand thing. Flossing your teeth with your toes seems to be your forte). But the Camby deal is a perfect example of just how stupid people can be when they go off and apologize for Ferry. Cap space can be used for other things besides signing free agents. Just because he had it didn’t mean he had to promptly squander it all and put them in a five-year bind.
July 16th, 2008 at 3:32 pm
By the way, Josh, I just noticed your latest excuse. Normally I don’t read your stuff, but I just breezed through it and something caught my eye. Apparently, now there’s a conspiracy to prevent James from getting a decent player. It has absolutely nothing to do with the guy who’s in charge of personnel and contracts and put them in this position. Nah, it’s a Roswell thing without the aliens. Those damn conspiracies. Ruining Cleveland and breaking hearts of their sports fans yet again.
Hilarious.
July 16th, 2008 at 4:15 pm
By the way, if Ferry has any guts at all, he won’t waste a second to call Stephon Marbury’s agent and do whatever it takes to sign Marbury to the vet’s minimum after the Knicks buy out his contract and release him.
July 16th, 2008 at 7:24 pm
Bullet officially dodged:
Thankfully, New Orleans decided to overpay for too many years of James Posey instead of us. Against my own better judgment, I will give Ferry some small amount of credit for not doing what I was sure he would (panic and offer Posey 4 or 5 years at the full mid-level).
I haven’t seen the Gibson contract yet but based on what’s happened so far, I give ferry an A for the summer. No stupid signings in a shallow free agent pool, a draft pick who appears to have a chance to make our frontcourt rotation, no pissing off agents, and no panic trades for more aging overpaid veterans.
I’m not saying I’m not waiting for the big move…I am. I just know that the time to do it is near the trade deadline when underperforming teams shed salary and not in July when the main thing on the minds of owners and GMs is getting people to renew their season tickets.
Be patient….let those bad contracts become more and more liquid. We’re only going to get one shot at this so we’d better make sure we take the right one. Right now, my money is still on a Redd trade before the 08-09 deadline. Milwaukee is not going to want to pay Redd and Jefferson to win 45 games.
July 16th, 2008 at 7:52 pm
No pissing off agents? For Pete’s sakes, first give Ferry the opportunity to bang on the front door of West’s mother. The summer is still young.
And there’s not a chance in hell that Ferry will acquire Redd. Unless you’re talking about the mummified remains of Redd Foxx. I’ll put Ferry’s chances at that at 50/50. Unless he pisses off Foxx’s agent first.
July 16th, 2008 at 9:04 pm
So let me get this right, alan t - Ferry’s genius move would be going after Stephon Marbury - that’s your idea of guts, a locker room cancer ball hog that’s already on record as hating your star player? Seriously - I can’t tell if you’re joking.
July 16th, 2008 at 10:16 pm
No, I’m not joking. There’s no cap room, there is nobody on the team anybody else wants, and Marbury has serious talent. Who gives a crap if he’s a “locker room cancer.” (What, it was the Brady Bunch last season? Who are you kidding?) He’ll be dirt cheap to sign, his agent won’t be demanding anything because of the contract buy-out, he’ll already have plenty of money. Sign the guy for one season, what do they possibly have to lose? What, you don’t think a contending team won’t eventually acquire Ron Artest? Marbury is far better than everybody else the Cavs have pretending to be guard on a pretend championship team, and thanks to Ferry, he’s the only thing the Cavs can afford. Who’s better for the money, Devin Brown or Stephon Marbury? The guy has major talent. Or cares if he screws interns or talks nonsense or is a little left of center. Or what the hell, let’s all rub Eric Snow’s knee together, he’s far better than Marbury, right?
July 16th, 2008 at 10:58 pm
I would have to agree with Alan only if we can get Marbury dirt cheap. Even though he’s a wack job, like Ron Artest, he’s a serious talent that I think would keep in line especially with a chance to win a ring with Lebron. He’s a major offensive threat that teams would have to pay attention to and it would allow Lebron to be even more effective, especially off the ball. I’m sure Mike Brown could get him to play adequate defense. Heck, even Wally did a pretty decent job on Ray Allen in the playoffs in Mike Brown’s system.
July 17th, 2008 at 12:11 am
You guys are clinically insane. You want Stephon Marbury? Really? Think about what you’re saying (and this is coming from the guy who was pushing harder than anyone to acquire Artest a month before the deadline last year). You want to acquire a guy who has killed every team he’s been on and been run out of every city he’s played in?
A few points on why you guys all need to be institutionalized:
1. You have to separate a player like Marbury from a player like Artest. Crazy is ok. Crazy + Alpha Dog player like Lebron can actually work (and yes, this is a direct ripoff from an old Simmons column but he was absolutely right). Let’s call this the Dennis Rodman or Stephen Jackson theorem. However, in order for that theory to work, said crazy player also has to be an intense competitor. Guys like Artest or Dennis Rodman…those guys loved to compete and hated to lose. I’m no expert on Stephon Marbury but he has never given me any reason to believe that he cares about winning. Crazy is ok as long as you also hate to lose. Marbury has never seemed particularly troubled by losing.
2. Stephon Marbury isn’t very good. Much like with the Vince Carter thing, you guys are valuing Marbury based on his fame, not on his present playing abilities. He’s 31, coming off injuries, and averaged 13.9 and 4.7 last year. By comparison, Delonte West is 5 years younger and averaged 10.3 and 3.8 last year (and a lot of that was before he started playing big minutes for the Cavs). Is it worth bringing the bubonic plague into your locker room to pick up a few points and an assist per game?…and that’s only if you figure West’s numbers won’t improve slightly which I think they will.
3. In light of the basketball upside of Marbury (minimal), do you really want to risk alienating the fans and pissing off Lebron? I mean what could scream “OH MY GOD, WE’RE DESPERATE AND PANICKED THAT LEBRON MIGHT LEAVE” louder than bringing in Marbury. It would be like an admission that we’re an incompetent franchise. Even for symbolic reasons alone, we can’t be bringing in Marbury.
In conclusion, you guys are all insane. If there were an award for “Worst Idea in World History,” this might be in the running.
July 17th, 2008 at 12:54 am
Really, Biff? It’s for one season. Who gives a damn. Latrell Sprewell did just fine. Artest will do just find for the Lakers, or whoever.
Marbury gravitated between point and shooting guard last season in 25 games, or whatever it was. West is not a point guard, West is not a shooting guard, West is not a starting guard.
And to say Marbury has a “minimal” basketball upside compared to what the Cavs have … well, THAT is insane. He’s far better than West, he can share the minutes with West. And to say it would be “an admission that we’re an incometent franchise,” well, you really ain’t giving James too much credit in the intelligence department if you don’t think he hasn’t figured that out already.
James doesn’t have to sit down at dinner and cheat waiters out of tips with these guys, all he has to do is win games with them. Winning goes a long way towards not calling the other guy a dick.
July 17th, 2008 at 1:18 am
1. I don’t remember Sprewell winning anything. I remember him going to one finals when he was 29 and had a lot more left in the tank than Marbury does now.
2. I think Lebron probably thinks that Larry Hughes is a douche who kind of screwed the franchise out of a chance to dominate the league early in James’s career. You have that and the Boozer fiasco (which, depending on how you see it, may or may not have been the Cavs’ fault). Other than those two debauchles, I think its unfair to say the Cavs have been an incompetent franchise. They made a couple of decisions that turned out to be terrible in hindsight and most of the other problems they’ve had since then are in some way a result of those moves. The Cavs really haven’t been that much worse than many of the other franchises in the league over the last few eyars. Aside from a select few teams that are managed extremely well (San Antonio, Portland), most of the teams in the NBA have a lot of the same problems the Cavs do. The only difference is the Cavs are under a microscope because they have the best player in the league and the national media still dislikes the notion of Lebron spending his entire career in Cleveland so they like to pour it on.
3. Now, I readily admit that I’m no basketball expert but I do think you might be slightly overlooking the idea of chemistry. Lebron doesn’t have to have dinner with his teammates but he has to click with them on the court. Nobody clicks with Marbury because he’s a grade A penis who only plays for himself. That’s why, in the prime of his career, he couldn’t get it done with Garnett. Guys like that don’t win titles for a reason. They can’t play prominent roles on good teams because they kill the chemistry.
Now, are you ready to move on with this absurd discussion. I just heard Steve Francis and J.R. Rider might be available!
July 17th, 2008 at 1:26 am
Besides, how many of the Cavs’ many marginal scrubs have been interviewed by Charlie Rose? This fact in itself is worthy of signing the guy for a season to the vet’s minimum. The interview starts at about the 42-minute mark. Can you imagine seeing Delonte West being interviewed by Charlie Rose? Rose would be sitting there talking about politics, the Middle East, the national deficit and how it affects Wall Street, or something, and West would be sitting there talking about munching somebody’s feet. “I like eating socks. They taste like chicken!”
http://www.charlierose.com/guests/stephon-marbury
July 17th, 2008 at 2:09 am
One bit of ironic little-known trivia, Biff: J.R. Rider owns one more NBA championship ring than James does. At least I’m assuming Rider hasn’t sold or pawned his championship ring, but who knows.
July 17th, 2008 at 8:16 am
alan t:
Your insistance that Stephon Marbury would be a must add to the team is officially THE DUMBEST THING YOU’VE EVER SAID.
An undersized ball hog that can’t play defense and hates our star player and team captain. Oh, and he’s coming off an injury plagued season and has burned every bridge in every situation he’s ever been in - that sounds like a great fit. We’d be sure to bring Starbury the first playoff series win of his career, and he could finally erase the embarassment of shooting 6 for 30 in those losses to Spain and Lithuania in the 2004 Olympics. He will be vindicated to those who connect the sad state of the Knicks with his acquisition, and can change his well known status as a premier selfish loser space cadet. Maybe he’ll even get the Cavs logo tattooed on the other side of his head. Lebron can get past all the trash Starbury talked about him on his radio show, and will forget all about the things that made him remark, and I belive this is a direct quote, “I could never play with that guy.”
I think I see your strategy here. Signing Marbury can make your dreams come true. Considering what happens to most GMs that acquire Marbury, it would almost certainly cost Danny Ferry his job.
Truth is, alan, I don’t think you really believe signing Marbury is a good idea. As much as I can’t stand your constant drone and wish you would provide us with some real discourse, I can tell from your writing style that you’re not that stupid. What I think really motivates you is that you know there is absolutely zero chance of Ferry adding Marbury, so you know you can safely bash Ferry for not doing it. Heck, it allows to to bash Ferry NOW for not doing it, and Marbury hasn’t even been released yet.
Isaiah Rider didn’t even make the Laker’s playoff squad, dude. He’s a perfect example of why not to bring Marbury here - how long did it take the Hawks to recover from that guy? Ten years? He is the quintessential wasted talent, and usually figured into everyone’s top five “What Could Have Been” list. Unless you’re writing about that or making out your Marin County Correctional Facility All-Stars ballot, it’s best to leave him out of your argument.
July 17th, 2008 at 9:07 am
biff - if you want to point out examples of the cavs being incompetent that is fine. however, in fairness, you cant use examples of things (like the boozer situation) that happened before Ferry and Dan Gilbert took over. that was all Paxson.
re. Marbury. there is a reason when a guy with his kind of talent goes from team to team. the guy is a 20.0 point / game player for his career, yet has played for 4 different teams. every team he has been on, they could not wait to get rid of him. i actually agree with Alan T. (did I just write that?) that this cavs team can use a guy who has some edge to him or who is a little “nutty”. i think that would help this team. ben wallace USED to be that guy, but I think he lost at least some his edge with his most recent contract. that being said, Marbury isnt the answer. He is kind of like Bonds - still has talent to help a team, but that [diminishing?] help is outweighed by all the baggage and media insanity that would follow, not to mention his alleged feud with LBJ.
re - JR Rider. wow. what a talent he was. seriously, that guy could play. total nutcase and a waste of talent.
July 17th, 2008 at 9:13 am
I think the big thing to consider about Marbury is “dirt cheap” - like vet minimum dirt cheap. Bring him in for training camp, see how well he plays and how well he gets along with Lebron. If things go well, start him alongside Delonte (Delonte could move to the 2 spot or vice versa). If he causes problems and it looks like he’s not going to be a good fit, cut him early in the season. I’d rather have Artest of course, but Marbury at vet minimum to me would be worth the try and would be minimum risk.
July 17th, 2008 at 9:31 am
Exactly, Tim. You’d think I wrote that they should sign Marbury to a 5-year contract for the full midlevel exception, and then force James to have anal sex with him.
I think it’s just plain dumb not to consider just how much better the talent would be with somebody like Marbury. Not only was he hurt, but he was under the New York microscope, he had the trial thing, his father died, and everything looks a helluva lot worse than it really is when the team you’re on sucks. He’s better than anybody else on the Cavaliers, with the exception of James. He can play 25 minutes, which is 25 minutes more than Eric Snow. Or is a lousy 45 victories and get promptly whacked out of the playoffs sufficient? What in the hell do they have to lose?
July 17th, 2008 at 9:47 am
Tim, there is a reason that Marbury is dirt cheap. The market for the services of former all-stars who are 31 doesn’t just dry up by accident. Marbury is radioactive and its not just because he is a PR nightmare. He is an absolute team killer.
I want the Cavs to get better just as much as anybody. But you don’t take a team that was a couple of PJ Brown fluke plays away from potentially winning the East again and poison it with a notorious team killer.
The team’s biggest need right now is a Tex Winter type assistant to install a real offense….not a batshit crazy washed up headcase to cause trouble.
July 17th, 2008 at 10:39 am
No, Biff, the reason he’d be “dirt cheap” is because his contract would be bought out. He has his money, guaranteed. The only thing that would be “cheaper” would be the amount of money the Knicks would be required to pay Marbury as a result of the signing.
I mean, this is just dumb. A “team killer?” The team won 45 games! What is there to kill? James is great. Seriously, you don’t think having Marbury out there instead of a fish like Walleye wouldn’t have resulted in a series victory?
And please, can we get off “hire an assistant coach to run the offense” nonsense? When you’ve got Ilgauskas combined with James, there is nothing to run. Figuratively or literally. No coach on the planet could improve the mish-mash they have on offense.
July 17th, 2008 at 10:52 am
You’re so far off base that its not even funny alan t.
It wouldn’t matter if Marbury was coming off a buyout or was an unrestricted free agent. At this point, no team would give him serious money. And in case you missed it, guys who get buyouts don’t just take the first minimum deal that comes along. They still try to get as much money as possible out of the new sucker team. They don’t just decide to take less because getting as much as possible would be double dipping and “unfair”. Marbury would be cheap because buyout or no buyout, nobody would pay much for his “services.”
What is there to kill? A team that won the east 2 years ago and had a legit shot to do it again last year. I’m not saying they’re an incredible team but its not like we’re in the lottery every year.
Oh, and you’re right about Lebron and Z. I mean there is nobody on the face of the planet that could figure out a way to score with the best offensive player in the league and a center who is automatic from 15 feet and can play with his back to the basket. Since Z can’t run and Lebron can, that makes it completely impossible for them to run an offense in the halfcourt. Got any other poorly thought out ideas or cliche’s you want to drop on us today?
July 17th, 2008 at 1:44 pm
Actually, Alan, Marbury until the lasy two years was a player that always put up good numbers when his team sucked. You can make a very good case for a correlation there. And the idea that he would play 25 minutes and be content is just incredibly stupid. This is the guy that left the Knicks in Phoenix last year because he was being benched.
And getting “promptly whacked out of the playoffs” an interesting interpretation of losing in the final minute of game seven on the road in the second round to a team that pretty much cruised to the championship afterwards. I do worry about making this team worse - the playoffs last year showed we aren’t far away from getting back to the finals, and that we won 45 games in spite of the injuries and the major trade.
Joe - there’s no alleged fued, both guys are on record against each other, albeit Marbury more than James. That, Tim, is precisely why I don’t think it’s even worth a shot at little to no money. The other baggage is huge, but when they talked about buying out Marbury’s contract last year, Lebron - an extemely diplomatic player - went on record saying he couldn’t play with him. Why bring that in, on top of anything else? I have no problem bringing an attitude or a little craziness in here - Artest I think could work out well - but not Marbury.
July 17th, 2008 at 2:55 pm
It’s not like I think we have to have him or something. I just agree with Alan that if we could get him for the minimum, why not try it? Like I said before, cut him 1/3 of the way into the season if it doesn’t work out. I don’t see how this would kill our chemistry so much if you can just cut the guy early in the season.
Yes, Marbury would probably want more than the vet minimum. If this was the case, then of course we don’t go after him. I’m sure some team out there will offer him in the 5-6 million per year range anyways if he’s bought out, so the point would be moot.
I still like the idea of staying put this year and see how far we can get and then make a big move next year if we don’t get at least back to the Finals. I still think a Finals appearance is very possible with our current roster. A training camp together along with hopefully a healthy AV, Gibson and Sasha (who were all playing injured in the playoffs or missed games) should make us better. Of course, I still think if we traded Wally straight up for Hughes we’d be a better team next year, but that’s not going to happen.
July 17th, 2008 at 3:26 pm
Alan t:
I sincerely apologize for calling your Marbury acquisition idea the worst idea in the history of the world. Clearly, Tim in Plantation Florida is determined to win that award in a landslide this year with his “let’s re-acquire Larry Hughes idea.”
So, between the two of you, the two best ideas you can come up with are to trade for Larry Hughes and sign Stephon Marbury. What if we did this instead…..what if we slashed Lebron’s tires, grabbed his girlfriend’s ass, and then egged his house! That might piss him off almost as much as your ideas guys!
Seriously, I mean these ideas are absolutely horrid. I mean I realize nobody died and made me the god of NBA roster management but these ideas don’t even pass a basic rationality test. Not only are they terrible from a basketball and PR standpoint, but they would almost assuredly infuriate the one guy whose opinion really matters.
Maybe our lack of roster flexibility is just making you guys delusional…but I implore just to wait it out another half year or so. Then, we might actually be able to do something to HELP our franchise.
July 17th, 2008 at 5:05 pm
forget larry hughes. he was a guy who on paper was solid and could have helped this team. a healthy larry hughes in his prime was a GREAT signing. however its clear that the death of his brother changed his outlook on his career and life and he simply does not value basketball and winning like this team would need. he is clearly content playing ball, having fun, and enjoying what life has to offer on a day to day basis. frankly, there is nothing wrong with that and I would love to have that luxury. however, he isnt going to help a team win a championship.
July 17th, 2008 at 10:11 pm
Hughes and Marbury would be an interesting backcourt.
I agree with joe that Hughes doesn’t care about winning, but he sure doesn’t seem ‘content’ or like he’s ‘having fun.’ He looks like a neurotic, unhappy dude who thinks about himself way too much.
July 17th, 2008 at 11:03 pm
Did anyone actually remember Larry and Lebron playing together for the couple months leading up to the big trade? They were finally playing pretty well together and seemed to be developing some chemistry on the court. Plus, we were winning until some more bodies went down. And, Larry was playing the dreaded point guard position that he hates so much. Larry may have just wanted to have fun and be carefree with the Cavs, but I never once saw him tank it on the court. He looked like he was playing hard every night to me. Yeah, he may not have that burning desire to win, but that doesn’t mean that he wasn’t trying to play well and win. Also, I don’t remember hearing anything about Lebron not wanting to play with him or disliking him.
Lets just look at the facts for this upcoming year. Wally looks like he’s lost a few steps and he’s only a shell of his former all-star self. Maybe with a training camp with the team he’ll come back and be a more consistent shooter. Sasha has some talent, and he’s shown flashes that he can be a quality 2 guard in this league, but he was injury plagued last year and had the holdout, so it’s really hard to tell how much upside he has. Thus, we have a big ? at the 2 spot. Would I like us to get Redd or Artest more than getting Larry back? Sure I would. But it doesn’t seem very realistic at this point. Would I be OK with our current roster? Yes, I would. Do I think Larry Hughes would be a better starting SG than either Sasha or Wally? Darn right I do and that’s why I propose the trade.
Larry vs. Wally -
Offense:
Wally - streaky shooter that shot around 40% with the Cavs. Career #’s much better, but has he just lost it or in a slump trying to get used to the new system and his teamates? He’s tough, strong, and can drive to the hole some and post up some, but his ballhandling skills are pretty poor and he’s not very quick of foot. Can’t get out and run on the fast break.
Larry - streaky shooter that shoots around 40%. Still very athletic and can take the ball to the hole and can run like a dear on the fast break. Should be even more effective if he plays the 2 instead of the 1.
Defense:
Larry beats Wally hands down - not even close. That being said, I thought Wally played pretty decent D in the playoffs. Larry’s a much better perimeter defender and can get you steals which allows for some easy baskets.
Larry vs. Sasha - I don’t think anyone can argue that from what they’ve seen up to this point that Sasha would be better or even as good.
I’m not saying trading Wally for Larry straight up is the best solution, but there’s little options out there and I think we’d be a better team if we did it.
July 17th, 2008 at 11:49 pm
Tim - is it really a great idea to reacquire a player less than a half a season after he asked to be traded? Really? That makes us a better team? I can’t believe someone is even making this argument.
July 17th, 2008 at 11:51 pm
And for the record, it would be a bad idea to bring Marbury into training camp even if he didn’t count against the cap and all his salary went to charity. It’s irrelevant how much he made. It’s just a bad idea.
July 18th, 2008 at 12:07 am
Tim:
Go back and watch game 5 of the 07 Eastern Conference Semis against New Jersey. Then, go to the doctor and have your head examined.
You want to trade back for a guy who:
1. Stunk while he was here
2. Is always hurt
3. Admittedly doesn’t care about winning
4. Essentially said he never liked it here once he left
5. Doesn’t like playing the position that we need him to play
6. Can’t shoot but still shoots a ton
7. Has an atrocious contract that we ended up taking on an equally atrocious contract just to get rid of
8. Is one of the worst and weakest finisher in the game today
9. Will be 30 next season
10. Will be reason #1 someday when they finally make the “5 Reasons You Can’t Blame Lebron for Leaving Cleveland” episode of that show.
I’m not trying to dump on you here but just so you know, this is an objectively horrendous idea. Really, you need to save face and recant.
July 18th, 2008 at 10:24 am
Reason #1, Biff? I think it will be more like #2 or #3. Hughes didn’t just appear in Cleveland on his own, it wasn’t like some homeless dude living underneath an abandoned house off of St. Clair Avenue woke up and found himself a lantern with a genie in it.
July 18th, 2008 at 10:47 am
the larry hughes issue is moot. its not going to happen. that ship has sailed. i agree, on paper, i’d prefer hughes over wally. in practical terms, wally is probably better for this team than hughes. plus, wally’s contract expires this season. thats a NICE trade chip. why waste it on a relatively mediocre talent (at this point in his career) such as larry hughes. it took a bad ben wallace contract to unload hughes and his bad contract, so why burden the financial flexibility more by having BOTH hughes’ and wallace’s bad contracts? that would make absolutely no sense.
July 18th, 2008 at 12:47 pm
alan t:
Ferry signed a guy at a position of need coming off an all-star season and entering the prime of his career. The fact that Hughes was a flop is Hughe’s fault, not Ferry’s. Ferry is responsible for it, but it’s not his fault. There’s a big difference there and that’s why Hughes is #1.
July 18th, 2008 at 4:09 pm
Hughes didn’t last long anywhere before he came to the Cavs and even the Wizards tried to lowball him after he had a career year there.
July 18th, 2008 at 10:05 pm
No, but everything else is Ferry’s fault, Biff. And that’s why Ferry is #1. Even with that one bad signing (and not to toot my own horn, which I said was really bad at the time), it’s the rest of the stuff that doomed the Cavs. The Ilgauskas thing is #2, Hughes is #3. The Ilgauskas signing, which not only was completely moronic in that Ferry bid against himself for unnecessary giant dollars and unnecessary years and was what really put the team in a long-term bind, but Ferry’s clueless benevolence towards his white European buddy forced them into five long years of a anti-James style that seamlessly fits James like the clueless goy who doesn’t know he’s not supposed to put kosher corned beef and pastrami together with fresh Wonder Bread and a heaping tablespoon of mayonnaise.
July 19th, 2008 at 12:41 pm
Again with your stupid Ilgauskas rant. z simply put, does not have an awful contract. you have NEVER presented any source to back up your idiotic claim that Ferry “bid against himself.” Z’s contract pays him just about right - around 10M for a durable starting center with an two All-Star games to his resume (if you look at the 2007-2008 salaries of every single center that has made an NBA All-Star team since 2005 when Z made it, the only centers that made less last year than Z where Mehmet Okur and Dwight Howard, who is still on his rookie contract), still playing at about the the same level - it’s not even in the the top forty or fifty contracts in the NBA, is it? Where is your freaking logic for that? Where? I’ve never seen it. Because all you say is your made up garbage about “Ferry bidding against himself” and “giving his buddy a deal.” The length is about right - this year and a player option for next - I can certainly see Z being productive this year, since he was 14.1ppg 9.8rpg 1.6 bpg last year.
His contract has never been prohibitively untradeable, and after this year, it doesn’t even matter. It has NEVER been the contract that bound the Cavs - if for no other reason that he’s produced. And honestly, Z DOES play well with Lebron. He can’t run with him, but Z should be making the outlet anyway, and shouldn’t have to be a running center. He is an excellent pick and pop player for Lebron to have as a passing option, as he has a pretty dependable jumpshot and is a big target, and he draws centers away from the paint.
July 19th, 2008 at 1:47 pm
Chuck:
I agree with 90% of what you’re saying. Z is not overpaid in the current NBA market. The only thing I faulted Ferry for was giving him, what, at the time, was believed to be one more year than anyone else was offering. Still, this certainly has not been the contract that has hurt the Cavs and I would agree with you that we could probably trade it whenever we wanted given the scarcity of talented big men in the league. Z might be the best shooting center in the league, he’s a great offensive rebounder, and his defense has improved dramatically since Mike Brown got there.
It’s easy to pick on Z because he’s not young and athletic. But come from a guy who was furious the Cavs didn’t sign Sam Dalembert the summer they re-signed Z (guilty as charged), I’d have to say that I was wrong and that it was the right thing to do. As my friend that summer told me, it’s easy to pick on Z until you consider the alternatives.
Alan, if you can name for me one guy to play the 5 that is better than Z that we could’ve gotten in the last couple of years, I’m all ears.
July 19th, 2008 at 3:57 pm
Uhhh… Chuck. At the time, there were only three other teams that could have offered him more than the midlevel exception. None nneded a center. So, by process of elimination, by definition, and by simple common sense, Ferry bid against himself. For money far exceeding his worth, for years far exceeding his worth. And yes, with that 15% trade kicker that Ferry idiotically agreed to stick into that contract, the contract has always been untradeable.
Biff, name anybody? OK, just about anybody that can move. Decent center in his younger days, totally wrong to team him with James.
And he’s a “great offensive rebounder?” Oh, come on. Padding stats with tips of your own shots does not equate to “great.” And his defense hasn’t improved, it’s just that Brown’s system covers up a lot of bad things. Just like Brown’s horrible offensive system actually can be a major positive, depending upon the opponent.
Oh, and Chuck, not to nitpick or anything, but the guy has never averaged 9.8, let alone over 10 rebounds per game. Like Delonte West, he should be coming off the bench. I mean, this is a 7″2″ guy who averaged a horrid 47% field goal percentage. That is downright awful. He’s too slow for James, and he’s a magic act with the ball. Watch that bunny disappear, because you’ll never see it again.
July 19th, 2008 at 5:14 pm
Not to nitpick? - in my haze this morning I typed 9.8 instead of 9.3. Big freaking deal. Furthermore 47% isn’t bad for a player asked to shot a lot of mid range jumpshots - regardless of his height. And tips count for a reason - it’s hardly “padding your statistics,” since it counts as a missed shot, too. Getting that ball back on the rim gives you chance to put it in, get fouled, for someone else to put it in, for someone else to get the offensive rebound - it’s what they want a big man, like Z, to do, as opposed to coming back down with it. The only thing that’s better is dunking it. So when you complain about it, you just show a lack of understanding a basketball fundamental. And whether you like cold hard facts or not, Z comes up with offensive rebounds better than almost anyone in the entire NBA, having finished in the top ten in offensive rebounds each of the last five years, leading the league in 2005.
I disagree with the implication that Z is some albatross around Lebron’s neck. Z’s game fits very well with Lebron’s in the half court offense - where most playoff games are played.
Frankly, as proven this off season, it’s irrelevant how many teams seem to have the money be big players in a free agent market - it just takes a salary dump here or there and a team comes out of nowhere with a bunch of cash. Since it’s obvious to all rational minds that Z signed for and is making about his market value, what you are criticizing Ferry for is not low-balling Z based on your impression of the market. Ask the Clippers how that worked out for them this year with Elton Brand. There’s no common sense in your position at all.
I don’t disagree that a year less deal and without the kicker would have been prefereable at the time, but it got the deal done, and honestly, the contract has worked out pretty well so far. A player option year at 11M, if Z maintains near his current level of production, hardly seems unreasonable. And the kicker, at 15%, has never amounted to more than 1.5M - not a big amount to overcome in a deal, and obviously, only 15% added to the remaining value of the contract. Big deal.
July 19th, 2008 at 6:04 pm
Plus, alan, I’m not sure if you know this but you know what you need to push the ball effectively? A good point guard. You know what we don’t have? A good point guard.
If we had Lebron matched with a quick guard with a great handle that could push the tempo and at least a couple of frontcourt guys that were mobile and athletic, I’d accept you blaming Z for our pace problems. But even if you took Z out of the picture, we still don’t have a point guard to spark an up-tempo offense and we only have one big (Varajao) that would be able to play a quarter without collapsing.
What we have is a great finisher and most of a supporting cast (coach included) that prohibits him from scoring in the open floor. We should be thankful that we have Z to bang around in the halfcourt to at least alleviate some of Lebron’s scoring burden. Until you can make wholesale changes to the team, Z is the best thing Lebron has working for him.
July 19th, 2008 at 7:00 pm
Uh, Chuck. I’m not saying Ilgauskas intentionally pads his statistics. But take out all those ridiculous tips because the guy is too damn weak to ram it home, and his offensive rebounding numbers are nothing to write home to Lithuania about.
And nobody, and I mean NOBODY, was going to trade for Ilgauskas after that five-year contract was signed. Five years for all that money, plus a 15% kicker for a dude who should be playing 20 minutes a game? Not a chance.
The Cavs would have been better off, as most teams have done this decade, by going with a forward at center and/or center by committee. Save the cap space for something else in the future. Like Allen Iverson. Or whoever.
And Biff, no matter how you try to frame it, the bottom line is that once Ilgauskas was signed, Brown’s offense became the only way. It’s like a poor man’s Fratello. Slow, slower and slowest. And it’s probably a good thing they didn’t get a speed demon point guard, because they would have been stuck with a very expensive center who would have been forced to sit. It’s no coincidence that when they play fast-break teams, that Ilgauskas is playing 20 minutes. He’d play even less if they had somebody else to play.
But it’s all a moot point now. When all is said and done, it will be like the Rocky Colavito trade. Decades after James is gone, and assuming the Cavs don’t end up in Seattle, they’ll still be talking about Danny Ferry in Cleveland’s suburbs (nobody is going to be left in Cleveland’s neighborhoods). They’ll be talking about him both as the deadwood of a horrible, horrible trade that killed them once, and as mold and mildew as a general manager that killed them for good. It’s a cryin’ shame.
July 19th, 2008 at 11:47 pm
Uh alan, that’s a complete crock. Ilgauskas gets to those tips because he has consistently been one of the five tallest players in the NBA for his entire career. Do you even watch basketball? And you’re the one that used the word “padded,” any negative connotations are yours.
Does anyone ever trade for a player in the first year of a five year deal? Off the top of my head, I can think of exactly one time. Does it even happen in the first year of a four year deal? Isn’t even pretty rare in the second year of five? Your point is kind of useless.
Your grand idea, with your best 20/20 hindsight, would have been a center by committee, and save the cap space, and go for a player like Iverson. Most teams that save cap space are headed directly to the lottery - would that have helped us re-sign Lebron after the season?
July 20th, 2008 at 8:02 am
You’ve just delivered my favorite Z line of all time, chuck–”he has consistently been one of the five tallest players in the NBA for his entire career.”
Z’s a valuable player but he’s just not the right building block for the kind of team that would have best suited LeBron’s unprecedented abilities. The Cavs had the cap space to realitstically obtain two players with 10M+ salaries in the 2 years following Ferry’s arrival, and he chose Z and Hughes, two almost all-stars whose games are predicated on completely opposite styles of play.
The Hughes signing may have worked out much better if the Cavs signed mobile young defenders instead of Z. That probably would have suited LeBron better, as well.
But Ferry, like Shapiro, seems to think his system is the most important aspect of the team when in reality of course LeBron is and hopefully will be for the next 12 years or so.
July 20th, 2008 at 10:19 am
Guys, they couldn’t just decide not to have a Center. Who the heck else were they going to sign?
July 20th, 2008 at 5:14 pm
Glad you like the line, Larry. I see the other 10M not so much as Z, since Z was just a matter of re-signing you r own free agent with full Bird rights, but as Damon Jones + Donyell Marshall.
I think that the reasons the Hughes signing failed were three fold.
1. He missed major time with injuries.
2. The failure of Donyell Marshall and Damon Jones to provide the outside shooting for which they were signed. Larry Hughes can’t shoot - but that was known when we signed him. When Marshall and Jones failed to produce as they had in the past, it both added shot opportunities for Hughes and put pressure on the rest of the team to take more outside shots. Not good.
3. Hughes reluctance to play the point. The CAvs actually had a pretty good run with Larry at the point. It was a good fit, giving the Cavs a big defensive point guard, taking pressure off Lebron to bring the ball up, and allowed Hughes take shots when he got them within his comfort zone, in the confines of the offense, without having to create them for himself. His unwillingness to continue at point is certainly what led to him being traded, more than anything else.
July 20th, 2008 at 10:46 pm
Z’s contract wasnt that bad. he is still a very productive player on both ends of the court. hes past his prime, but there are players much worse making much more. alan t - you cant just assume the cavs could have gotten the same kind of production out of a “center by committee” had they decided to not sign Z. who else is out there? if you go the committee route, then you inevitably end up with a threesome or so of guys like scott pollard, andrew declerq and Diop. if any one of those guys are playing full time, you are likely in trouble. in addition, the combination of salaries of that kind of committee would likely roughly equate to Z’s salary. so just sign Z rather than go with a committee of a bunch of scrubs. bottom line is had the cavs let Z go, then they would be trying to fill that C spot and grumps like you would be complaining about how dumb the cavs were to let a C like Z slip right through their hands when he was there for the taking. an important detail - lbj wanted Z back.
you also love to talk about how ferry was stupid for “blowing” all that cap space in 2005. was ferry supposed to not spend it and sign bottom of the barrel players that year? should he have waited to spend it in 2006? 2007? at what point was he supposed to spend it? at some point that cap space has to get spent. which free agents have been out there to sign? should he have waited until 2008 to go after maggette? had he done that, lbj would probably already be gone. nearly all free agent signings are inevitably overpaid. thats how free agency works in sports. there is no perfect answer, but i am willing to bet that there would be a better chance for LBJ to leave had the cavs NOT spent that cap space than spending it poorly (which they didnt, although i agree it could have been spent better).
July 20th, 2008 at 10:53 pm
chuck - i agree with your hughes analysis. one other point to consider is just simply hughes didnt have the mental makeup for a championship level team. i think he did when he was signed, but lost it. hughes openly admitted that especially after his brother died, he lost his competitive edge and was content just playing basketball, having fun and enjoying life. winning wasnt necessarily important to him anymore. there is no way ferry or anyone else could have predicted that hughes was such a mental light-weight and would lose his competitive edge in 2 seasons due to his brother dying. if hughes is content playing ball and cashing checks and enjoying life, then more power to him. i wish i had that life. but he ultimately turned into a player that was not conducive to helping win a championship and ferry could not have predicted that.
July 21st, 2008 at 1:13 am
Joe - after we traded him, Hughes went on record saying winning wasn’t as important to him as having fun. I don’t hold a grudge against Hughes either, but you’re right, he’s not a winner, and you may be right that his brother’s death may have had some impact towards that.
Well, the Vegas Summer League is over. NBA TV graced us with two games - I don’t really understand why they didn’t do all of them, they shot them all. Hell, I’ll go do play by play next year, if that’s the issue, for free… the rest of the games can be watched streaming, but that’s a tough viewing experience….
jj hickson did very well in the Summer League. He was about 20 & 8, and showed a variety of ways to score, inside and out, occasionally with some flair and creativity. I can’t wait to see him against real opponents, but the two games I saw he looked impressive. Most of the time, he was clearly the best player on the court. He may be able to give us a Maxiell type presence off the bench. For some reason, he reminded me of a young Antonio McDyess. He can really get up there, and might be a decent shot blocker. He was even double teamed a few times, and fought through them well. One problem - I don’t think I saw him get a single assist. nonetheless, he was right there with Mayo, Bayless, Love, & Randolph as rookies go.
I think Darnell Jackson will play most of the time in the D League, but he’s already at least as good as Dwayne Jones. He’s solid defensively, and strong, but didn’t put much together offensively. he showed a little jump hook off the glass in the middle of the paint, and can hit little stand still jumpers, but doesn’t really seem to have much in terms of post presence.
Both players looked bigger than I thought they were.
Clay Tucker will be one of the last cuts this year, I’m guessing. He should he could score and move the ball around a little. Mike Greene looked like he’ll be invited to training camp, too. He’s aggressive to the basket and does a good job setting up teammates.
Traylor faded after a strong start. i think he’ll make it back to the NBA, but I doubt with the Cavs this year.
Anyone else see the rumour that Golden State is interested in Delonte West?
July 24th, 2008 at 3:13 pm
i havent heard that but anything is possible. i like west and want the cavs to keep him, but not by overpaying. it should be interesting.
by the way - alot of positive reviews on Hickson so far nationally. where are all the ferry bashers now? granted its just summer league, but its better than struggling.
August 2nd, 2008 at 9:00 pm
larry, consider this to be a concurring vote on that unintentionally hilarious line being my favorite Ilgauskas line of all-time. “…he has consistently been one of the five tallest players in the NBA for his entire career.” Elgin Baylor has consistently worn one of the five thickest toupees in the NBA over the course of his front office career. Unfortunately, neither Baylor and his ultra-thick toupee nor Z and his legendary height have been the wisest talent combinations for their respective teams.
August 3rd, 2008 at 8:30 am
I’m torn about Baylor. He has consistently drafted talented players but the culture there is too much to overcome. Maybe it’s his fault or maybe it’s Sterling’s.