Merry Christmas…Cavs vs. Heat
Posted December 25th, 2007 by Brian Windhorst
Pregame
Starting lineups
Heat: Jason Williams, Dwyane Wade, Dorel Wright, Udonis Haslem, Shaq
Cavs: Larry Hughes, Sasha Pavlovic, LeBron James, Drew Gooden, Zydrunas Ilgauskas
Officials
Bob Delaney, Luis Grillo, Sean Wright
–Yes, Larry Hughes is in the starting lineup. Mike Brown said it was because this is the lineup that worked last year in the playoffs and at the end of the season. Then again, this requires Hughes to play point guard, which he said he was done with. Or not, maybe LeBron will play it. We’ll see. Either way, my read on this is that this is a last ditch effort to get something out of Hughes before they remove him from the lineup altogether. Larry, Brown and Danny Ferry had a long meeting after practice yesterday, in which I’ll bet he was told to stop complaining in the media among other things.
–Daniel Gibson hasn’t done anything to go to the bench, but Brown needs someone who can hit a shot coming off the bench so that may have contributed to this move.
–Shaq is not having a great season, but he’s still a load and will be hard for the Cavs to handle if he’s getting free on the backside. How does he get free on the backside? When they can’t stop dribble penetration.
–The Cavs have been unable to handle the Dwyane Wade high pick-and-roll in the past, we’ll see if LeBron gets the assignment if there is a crunch time.
–Cavs next two games are at Dallas and at New Orleans. Which makes this a rather important game to win, as if that matters these days.
Halftime — Heat 47, Cavs 43
–Yawn. Boy is this a bad game. No, neither one of these team is playing very well but part of this can be blamed on the officials. They are blowing their whistles to stupid touch fouls. We’re on pace for an 80-foul, 80-free throw game. Enough already. They can’t even stop from tooting when there’s free throws going on, there’s been three lane violations called.
–The Cavs are not playing with a lot of energy. They have 10 turnovers and most of them are on mindless plays. They are dribbling like it’s going out of style, there’s almost no passing on offense. They had just two assists in the second quarter and they scored just 18 points. After starting the game 6-of-7 from the floor, the Cavs are 8-of-26. Gibson doesn’t usually dribble this much in a week.
–Sasha Pavlovic and Larry Hughes, the Banger Brothers, are a combined 1-of-8 in the first half. Jeez, doesn’t Damon Jones deserve a try by default?
–This is a warning for the Cavs, this is turning into a junk game and Wade thrives in junk games. Of course, he and LeBron are a combined 7-of-16 at the line in the half. That’s what ABC wanted, right, the stars missing free throws?
Postgame — Cavs 96, Heat 82
Stars
LeBron James, 25 points, 12 assists
Anderson Varejao, 15 points, seven rebounds
Daniel Gibson, 16 points
Dwyane Wade, 22 points, eight assists
–I know this sounds like a broken record, but the defense decided this one again. The Cavs started playing it in the third quarter and the game turned around. Part of it was the Heat getting stagnant with the ball and, no, they are not the most talented team right now. But the Cavs played decent one-on-one defense and the rotations and help were active. There weren’t guys going to the basket with three Cavs standing on the floor watching.
–The Cavs gave up 20 points below their defensive average tonight, which says a whole lot when you think about it. Yes, the Heat are bad, but so are the Knicks if you get my drift.
–It is hard to tell whether or not this is a real stepping stone game, considering this was generally the way the cavs played against the Lakers. As one Cavs official pointed out to me, the team has won three of five. We’ll see.
–Spoke with Larry Hughes after the game. Seems like after a long meeting with Mike Brown and Danny Ferry, he’s going to go back to playing point guard and try to keep himself focused on team goals. He said “There are individual goals that you’d like to accomplish and have that coincide with the team winning. But if that can’t happen you have to put the team goals first and you have to respect that.” Still, he’s not thrilled playing PG but he’s got his starting spot and his minutes back, so I guess it is an uneasy truce. He did play better today than he has, but was still 2-of-7.
–Sasha Palvovic was 1-of-8 and the one was a dunk in transition. He’s now gotten to the point where he is sling-shooting his jumpers, cocking the ball behind his head. He did an OK job on Dwyane Wade, which means he’s not going anywhere in the lineup. Still, he’s 13-of-45 over the last six games.
–Anderson Varejao has played three quality games in a row. He’s finishing well in traffic around the basket and shooting free throws well. He didn’t do either well last year. I still don’t think he’s jumping well, I suspect his legs are totally back or totally there. But he’s come around well over the last week.
–Zydrunas Ilgauskas moved into second place in team history in rebounds during the game. He’ll be the all-time leader soon enough. I hear a lot of complaining about Z in my e-mail inbox, on radio shows and tv shows and on message boards. Lots of people complain about his contract. Often people focus on his shortcomings and what he can’t do. Let me tell you this, someday No. 11 will hang in the rafters because he’s been one of the best players in the history of the franchise. He’s a great rebounder, he has one of the best shooting touches for a big men in this era and he’ll be remembered as one of the best offensive rebounders of this era. Yes, he’s got slow feet. Yes, he’s not physical. Yes, he’s lumbering. But he’s been a great player. And here’s something else nobody ever seems to remember. When he signed his current contract, he took a $6 million pay cut in his prime. Give me another example of someone who has done that. Considering his output and what others at his position are making across the league, he’s fairly compensated. That’s all I wanted to say about that.
December 25th, 2007 at 3:44 pm
Yes, defense is vital, but in the thirteen games from Nov. 28 to Dec. 3, as the Cavs have gone 3-10, their opponents have scored 98.9 points per game in that stretch. That’s around the league average.
Meanwhile, Cleveland has scored only 89.9 points per game.
Had they done this all season it would put them last in the NBA behind New Jersey’s 91.9 ppg.
Who’s to blame for the abysmal offense?
The following list may not surprise you.
The numbers shown below are points scored–including free throws–per field goal attempt or turnover. In other words, who can score once they have the ball? Apologies to Coach Brown, no “hockey assists” tallied here.
Total points divided by {FGA + TO} in the last thirteen games:
————————————————————–
1.17 Gibson
1.14 Varejao
1.11 James
1.09 Ilgauskas
1.03 Newble
1.03 NBA average for the entire season so far
0.96 Cavs’ team average while going 3-10
0.88 D. Brown
0.87 S. Brown
0.86 Gooden
0.86 Hughes (incl. Dec. 11 vs. IND)
0.84 Da. Jones
0.74 Pavlovic
0.65 Hughes (w/o Dec. 11 vs. IND)
0.64 Snow
[minimum 150 minutes played]
This blog prominently features the Larry Hughes 40% Theorem, so no need to further dissect his shooting choices. Key for Hughes is to get to the foul line. He’s hit 22-of-24 free throws since coming back.
The question is how to get Hughes fouled in an injury-free fashion.
Every bit as pressing is when will the real Sasha Pavlovic return from Serbia?
December 25th, 2007 at 4:10 pm
this offense is so much better when larry hughes works within the offense and doesn’t force shots. he sucks at shooting, but if he is open and doesn’t have to shoot off the dribble he isn’t horrible. i prefer this lineup, because i think gibson can be very valuable off the bench. now if sasha can just return to last years form and larry can play consistent and not like an idiot, this team will be much better on offense
December 25th, 2007 at 4:46 pm
I guess for Christmas we get a bad free-throw shooting contest. Boring.
December 25th, 2007 at 5:04 pm
How about letting LeBron operate without a screen roll?!! What happened to drive and kick!? We are allowing them to take our best player out of the game by running screen roll and letting them trap him. This is insanity! Ricky Davis can’t check him from the wing or post. Unbelieveable
December 25th, 2007 at 5:06 pm
Damon should be asking out of town! He’s shot well, spreads the floor and happens to be our BEST HELP DEFENDER (though awful on the ball). Give the guy some burn!
December 25th, 2007 at 5:19 pm
i take back what i said. hughes sucks
December 25th, 2007 at 5:21 pm
In all of the writings about the Cavs’ defensive struggles this year, I have yet to see Z’s name mentioned. Is it always Gibson’s fault?
December 25th, 2007 at 5:27 pm
The Banger Brothers? We had “Boobie” forced down our throats until we were all ready to simultaneously gag and cough up a kidney, and this is the best that you and your brethren could come up with? (By the way, I’m pleased you’re finally starting to call him Daniel again. As it should be.)
How ’bout the Stiffy Twins?
December 25th, 2007 at 5:56 pm
Why can’t Larry Hughes give the Cavs at least this every game? He’s not shooting well (2-6 so far), but he’s pushing the ball, he’s passing on the break, and he’s made a couple of drives to the hoop. He’s also making Dwyane Wade’s life difficult (4-14, and 4 steals for Hughes). It’s not worth $12 Million/year, but at least he’s been more positive than negative so far. +8 actually.
It’s not that I think this will last. It’s just that he has given them legitimate starter production today, and that shouldn’t be such a rare event. It’s pretty inexplicable.
Go Cavs. Finish off the Heat.
Mike C.
December 25th, 2007 at 7:41 pm
Larry Hughes gets 4 pts, 6 assists and 4 steals and we’re calling his his “good” game. $12-14 million don’t buy what it used to! He and Sasha were another brutal 3-15 shooting from the shooting guard position. Yes Hughes playes some tenacious D on Wade, although Wade looked like he had hung out at LeBron’s palace late last night. He couldn’t even reach the rim with his free throws today. Starting Sasha and Hughes together? Not sure two cold shooting guards are better than one.
Gibson saved the day with his consistent sharp-shooting off the bench. Everyone hustled today and did their jobs, but the 2-guards were still horrible. Please Danny Ferry, wrap Hughes up in a bow and leave him on someone’s doorstep. We don’t need anything in return. It’s Christmas!
December 25th, 2007 at 7:50 pm
Poor Damon Jones and his ridiculousness should get a chance, cuz he’s never had one here. Geez.
These guys are dying for a point guard. Hughes might as well do it cuz even if he is shooting badly he still contributes, and what are the alternatives? Eric Snow, Damon Jones or Lebron. You could trade snow and Jones and still not have a decent PG. Gibson is a good shooter, but I don’t see him getting many assists so he’s best off the bench.
I can’t wait to see the headlines one of these days reading Cavs get Kidd, or A Miller, or Earl Boykins, or anyone. The glove is way better than these clowns.
December 25th, 2007 at 8:22 pm
Hahaha. D-Whistle got about 4-5 phantom calls today and he can’t make the ft’s. The HEAT are finished! Starting J-Will at the 1? Pathetic. Riles has gotta hate his squad.
Go Cavs.
December 25th, 2007 at 9:59 pm
Hughes and Pav went a combined 3 for 15? What the hell are those guys playing 28 and 33 minutes for? Let somebody else play! No Damon Jones and no Shannon Brown. Where was Shannon Brown anyways? I didn’t see him on the bench.
December 25th, 2007 at 10:06 pm
hey, windhorst, did you get as bored of the game as i did and just stop watching and blogging?
December 26th, 2007 at 12:04 am
it amazes me how poorly larry can play and get his starting job back . he’s made every excuse for his poor shooting and it seems that the cavs always try to accomodate him(complained about being a point ,cavs moved him back to SG. complained about coming off bench , put him back in starting line and he still shooting poorly) and he still struggles . i know ferry does not want him burried on the bench(where i believe brown wants him) because that would be a direct showing on him on his 1st major free agent acquisition that turned out to be a total bust(a 12 million dollar a year bust) . it’s no coincidence that hughes is starting again after a lengthy talk that included the gm . they can spin it all they want by saying hughes is back in the line up because that was the winning line up towards the end of last season . just the other game ,he played under 20 mins and today he logs over 30 mins in a starting role ? that move just has ferry’s hands all over it .tell me how are they going to go anywhere with hughes and pvs starting together in the backcourt , 2 guys who can’t throw a ball in the ocean at this point . that has to be the worst starting backcourt in the nba . i said for a while , the cavs need an athletic ,top flight 2 guard who can give you at least 20 ppg and can create his own shot and shot for others more than they need a point guard.
December 26th, 2007 at 12:40 am
Ilgauskas is a “great rebounder?” Since when? Brad Daugherty was a far better rebounder than Ilgauskas, and I never considered Daugherty to be a “great rebounder.”
And I don’t consider it noble for a guy to take a “$6 million pay cut in his prime” when nobody else offered remotely close to what was being offered by Ferry in the first place. Not to mention that ridiculous added 15% sweetheart trade kicker on top of it. What was Ilgauskas supposed to do in response to that purported “$6 million pay cut in his prime,” retire?
Look, I’m sure he’s a really, really personable and swell guy and everything, and yes, for a big guy he has a soft 12-15 foot shot facing the basket, but your biases and fierce protection of one of the consistent team (yes, I said “team”) problems is absolutely ridiculous. Not to mention his career offensive rebounding stats being grossly padded by his own tips because the Lithuanian beanstalk, for reasons unknown, is unable to power and jam the damn ball.
The “team” concept will always separate Daugherty from Ilgauskas. Daugherty was an excellent team player. Ilgauskas is simply not. Remember when I posted that Mark Price video clip? That clip wouldn’t exist if Ilgauskas had been their center instead of Daugherty. All the folks who’ve been stuffing your e-mail box with Ilgauskas gripes are absolutely correct.
But I don’t blame Ilgauskas in the least, I blame that dolt Ferry for re-upping him in the first place. Hey, if somebody ever backed up a Brink’s truck into my driveway, I wouldn’t say “No,” either.
To steal your last sentence, “That’s all I wanted to say about that.”
December 26th, 2007 at 12:55 am
LeCavalier, Riley mortgaged the future, blew his load in 2005, and has an NBA title to show for it. Ferry mortgaged the future, blew his load in 2005, and has Ilgauskas, Hughes, Marshall and Jones to show for it. From a fan’s perspective, which would you rather have experienced?
By the way, I find it kind of funny that you’re mocking Riley for starting Williams at the point, because I think Ferry would probably commit O.J.-like murder to have somebody similar to Williams replacing the Cavaliers point guard du jour.
December 26th, 2007 at 1:01 am
Mike Brown, or freakin LeBron for that matter, needs to put their foot down and get rid of these crappy lineups. Shannon Brown played well when Lebron was out, and now he gets NO minutes. Damon Jones was shooting the ball well this year, at least compared to Hughes/Pavs, and now gets NO minutes. And the only reason for this is because with Pavs/hughes there are no minutes for them. WELL THEN PUT YOUR FOOT DOWN AND CUT SASHA AND LARRY’S MINUTES!!!
You need to surround LeBron with shooters.. and both Damon and Shannon have showed they deserve at least a CHANCE to get consistent minutes.
I cant wait for Hughes to get injured again.
December 26th, 2007 at 1:25 am
much as i’m loathe to agree with tucker, and his ‘conclusions’ about Z and his contract are as idiotic as always, the substantive points about Z are apt AND appropriate.
and let me ask you this , windhorst, how many LAY-UPS did ilgauskas give up, at SEVEN FEET, THREE FREAKIN’ INCHES, today at the rim? i counted 5 by GUARDS!!!! he also CANNOT FINISH with any kind of consistency at all. and yes, he’s a decent outside shooter for a man his size but go look up his shooting pct. this year, because i refuse to publicly state it because it’s too embarrassing to see in balck & white for a CENTER who is, again, SEVEN FEET, THREE INCHES TALL!
clearly the good rev. pluto indoctrinated you in the “Z can do no wrong and ALL area sportswriters must defend him at all costs” club. but answer me this: if this team can only win with D, how does Z, who once again, let’s guards score lay-ups on him on a REGULAR basis, contribute to the cavs defense? or is he, in fact, a liability on D? and now we are seeing his offense not being enough to offset that liability?
oh, and look how poorly the cavs did in the 4th qtr. with andy at center. really proves your argument. sheesh…
December 26th, 2007 at 1:40 am
First, Shannon Brown really didn’t play well when LeBron was out. He got individual stats. Which is great if you’re playing P-I-G and H-O-R-S-E. Second, after seeing the manner in which he responded to Eric Snow, folks now have a better idea as to why those bar bouncers kicked the crap out of him. In fact, immediately after seeing the manner in which he responded to Eric Snow, I wouldn’t have minded planting my own foot into one of Brown’s orifices.
As far as Jones’s benching is concerned, as Windy duly noted while mentioning the Hughes matter, perhaps Ferry is anti-big mouth.
December 26th, 2007 at 2:26 am
Shannon Brown getting individual stats is better than Larry Hughes doing anything.
December 26th, 2007 at 3:03 am
Hey, kj, apparently there’s a lot more than just myself that have the same “conclusions” about what both Ilgauskas and his bloated contract have never contributed to the team. Evidently, numerous fans are stuffing Windy’s e-mail box with more than just hot links to Lithuanian porn, and they all involve a major beef with Ilgauskas. But again, this is all Ferry’s doing, so I will never blame Z for taking the money and running. Or whatever Z’s version of running is called these days. Only 2 3/4 seasons left, if he makes it that far. Call the trainers and have Roger Clemens’ training regimen on standby.
December 26th, 2007 at 3:37 am
tucker, you are truly an idiot if you think Z wouldn’t have been overpaid by another team. NBA teams ALWAYS over-value size. ALWAYS. like in…ALWAYS! i could bring up darko, wallace, nene and a thousand others, so please spare us the ferry-bashing nonsense. you made real points ( pun unintentional ) about Z’s lack of production and the “code of silence” about criticizing him from the cleveland media. so, please stick to that stuff and leave the juvenile GM-bashing to the rest of the idiots who call WKNR, etc., ok?
December 26th, 2007 at 5:59 am
Who could be happy after this win against a team that is at the bottom of the East. A better team would have run the Cavaliers out of the building in the first half. The Cavaliers cannot compete with shooting guards hitting less than 30% of their shots. We are still in big trouble without a roster change. Hughes starting is a joke and also sends the message that players are not accountable for how they perform. Gibson, of all people, has earned the right to start. He should have more plays called for him.
Regarding Z, it was one of the worst signings next to Hughes. It tied up big $ for a plodding center who doesn’t play defense and is an erratic rebounder. Lebron doesn’t need a Z type center. What he needed was Ferry to use his money wisely to bring in real athletes to surround Lebron. The worst part is I believe Ferry signed Z in large measure because they were close. Danny has to remember this is business not personal. Now we are stuck with Z and Hughes. Nice.
December 26th, 2007 at 9:01 am
Alan rates players by their hair style and he doesn’t like Shannon Brown because of his corn rows and braids. That guy played well in those few games compared to Sasha and Larry, so he should get some minutes. You can’t expect these guys to come off the bench after so little playing time and be superstars, so we need to give Shannon a chance to get some more minutes to see what he can really do. Its clear that Larry and Sasha are sucking this year, so put somebody else in and give them a chance!!!
December 26th, 2007 at 10:13 am
Listen folks, Z is not what’s wrong with the Cavs, so quit the complaining about him. The guy generally puts up 10+ points, 8+ rebounds per game. That qualifies as at least an average center and likely above average. Let me ask all of you this question…How many GM’s in the league would rather have Z than what they have currently? I bet you more than half. Again kids, Z is not the problem.
December 26th, 2007 at 10:19 am
Everyone loves Big Z and I have no doubt his jersey will hang in the rafters when he retires. If Pluto, Windhorst and Ferry are still around maybe they’ll put a balloon up there for Z’s wife, too.
The fact is, Z falls into a rut of being a terrible defender. From the games I’ve seen recently, he’s gotten worse since last year and worse since the beginning of this year. Windhorst always blames the defense on Gibson, but no one can ‘handle’ guys like Baron Davis or Jason Kidd and the Cavs have been getting torched by point guards for the last several years, even with Snow (another BW favorite) in there.
And now Z’s stats are taking a nosedive back to the level they always settle at. He’ll be at 13 pts., 8 rebounds shortly. Those aren’t numbers that make a player remembered as ‘one of the best’ anything of an era.
BW is a great blog host, but he is very hesitant to criticize any player who is older than he is, and very willing to criticize the younger guys. It hurts his coverage and you can tell he knows it when he starts making outlandish claims. He’d be great a great addition to my weekly poker game.
December 26th, 2007 at 10:28 am
I actually kind of agree with Alan for once. Z is 7′3″ and averages 7.8 rebounds per game for his career. That doesn’t even crack the top 100 of all time. Dirk Nowitzki averages more rebounds than Z. I would never call Z a great rebounder.
December 26th, 2007 at 10:28 am
Alan, I know you have contended sisnce his signing that Z was overpaid, but I’m trying to find the ways in which his contract is “bloated.”
I tried a bunch of different statistical comparisons, and it just isn’t true. Looking at players who are congregated around him, Z is getting about what you would expect a player with his production to earn.
Points, field goal %, and rebounds are conventional methods to evaluate players. Ilgauskas ranks 10th, 20th, and 14th respectively among centers in those categories (according to espn.com stats page as of the morning of Dec. 26th). If you take the three players “around” him in each category — the three veteran centers immediately above him and the three below (as listed on the espn.com stat page) and Ilgauskas is paid about what should be expected.
His six comps (three vet centers immediately above him and the three immediately below him) are Shaquille O’Neal (20 mil), Al Harrington (8.4 mil), Eddie Curry (8.9 mil), Chris Wilcox (6.5 mil) Brad Miller (10.5 mil), and Rasheed Wallace (12.5 mil) Put them together, and they average 11.3 mil dollars this year, where ESPN.com lists Ilgauskas at 10.1 mil this year.
The six comps for field goal percentage (where Z ranks 20th among centers) are Yao(13.7 mil), Gasol (13.7 mil), Kaman (8.6 mil), B. Miller (10.5 mil), Harrington (8.4 mil), and J. O’Neal (19.7 mil) — or an average salary of 12.4 mil this year.
The six comps for rebounding (Z is 14th ranked among centers) are Tyson Chandler (10.5 mil), Carlos Boozer (11.6 mil), Yao (13.7 mil), Dalembert (10.2 mil), Jeff Foster (5.5 mil), and Ben Wallace (15.5 mil) — or an average of 11.7 million this year.
I also did a similar check based on ESPN’s player rating system and Hollinger’s PER, both of which try to measure the whole of the set of accomplishments of players (as opposed to 2 or three areas).
ESPN had ilgauskas as the 9th best veteran center this year. The six comps around him were Bosh (13 mil), Camby (11.2 mil), J. O’neal (19.7 mil), B. Miller (10.2 mil), Chandler (10.5 mil), and S. O’Neal (20 mil) for an average of 14+ mil this year. Expand it to the 8 players in front of him and the 8 veterans after him, and the average drops to an 11.5 mil average.
PER is similar. Ilgauskas is the 10th rated vet center by Hollinger’s measure. The six comps (Gasol, S. O’Neal, Haywood, Smith, Chandler, and R. Wallace) average 10.5 mil this year. Expand it to the nine above and the nine below ilgauskas (veteran centers) and you have an average of 10.4 mil a year. Again, ESPN.com lists Ilgauskas’ salary at 10.1 mil this year.
Veteran centers in this case mean players not bound by the initial draft salary slots or by qualifying offers prior to free agency. If the player had a C listed in part by his name ont he ESPN.com stat page, then I included him in the comparison.
Ilgauskas is making about what you would expect a player of his caliber to make.
December 26th, 2007 at 11:19 am
Give it a rest blaming Z for the poor play lately. Alan is a MORON if he really does think that. The problem is clearly with Larry and Sasha. They are not playing anywhere near how they played last season and that is really hurting us. And then Brown is still giving them a ton of minutes which makes no sense. Hell, put Damon in there and let him atleast knock down some 3’s.
December 26th, 2007 at 11:21 am
How does this $6 million pay cut thing work? Was Z making $16 million a year before? Or was someone offering him $16 million a year?
December 26th, 2007 at 11:29 am
Thanks to KevinAndress, and just about anyone who is willing to look at some numbers before making a decision about a player. It’s easy to complain, but it’s a lot harder to explain what would have been a better option for the Cavaliers at the time. Saying that “LeBron should be surrounded by shooters and running big men” is easy, finding the shooters and running big men is hard.
Who exactly would you find to replace Z? Eddy Curry, and his 5.2 rebounds per game? Marcus Camby, and his 20 missed games per year? Show me a center who has been available in the last 3 years that would be more productive than Z. The only player that I can think of is Tyson Chandler, who was owed $54 Million over 5 seasons, and was averaging 5.3 ppg for his career when he was traded by Chicago.
But please, throw out some names. Explain to me how the Suns were chomping at the bit to trade Amare Stoudamire for Ira Newble, Eric Snow and Cavalier Girl Suzanne. I’m sure that a quality big man will be just as easy to find as the perfect point guard.
Go Cavs.
Mike C.
PS: I would *never* trade Cavalier Girl Suzanne.
December 26th, 2007 at 12:02 pm
Mike, I’m not saying there were a ton of other options for the Cavaliers to have at center. My only point was that I would hardly call Z a ‘great’ rebounder. He’s adequate at best, especially for a guy who is 7′3″.
December 26th, 2007 at 12:27 pm
Sorry, just a few more thoughts.
- On Damon Jones and Daniel Gibson. I’m still not sold on Gibson, who will be a restricted free agent after this season. While Gibson contributed 16 points off the bench yesterday, he still only managed 1 rebound and 0 assists. The problem is not that Gibson is a bad player, it’s just that his ceiling might not be as high as everyone would like. Right now, he’s really no better (or worse) than Damon Jones was in Miami, the year before he was signed by the Cavaliers. Take a look.
Gibson (07-08): 33.8 MPG .478 FG% .504 3P% .806 FT% 2.8 RPG 3.2 APG 12.6 PPG
Jones (04-05): 31.4 MPG .456 FG% .432 3P% .791 FT% 2.8 RPG 4.3 APG 11.6 PPG
The point is, Damon Jones wasn’t necessarily a bad idea, he’s just been a bust. If Gibson is the type of player that should be surrounding LeBron (as Terry Pluto and others suggest), then Damon Jones was exactly that same type of player right before he signed with the Cavs.
So either a) Danny Ferry made a big mistake signing Damon Jones, a mistake that he shouldn’t repeat with Gibson, or b) Ferry didn’t make a big mistake with Jones, he just got unlucky, or c) something in the middle. In any case, it makes re-signing Gibson this offseason a somewhat hazardous proposition.
- Let’s stop the cries for Shannon Brown. The guy is averaging more turnovers than assists. He’s a bad possession waiting to happen. Remember, even Ricky Davis can look flashy, but adding him to the Heat has made them the worst team in the League. Looks can be deceiving.
- You know who looked good yesterday? Andrew Bynum. Why didn’t the Cavs get him? Probably because he was drafted 10th in a draft where the Cavs had the 24th pick, and was considered too valuable to trade, even for Jason Kidd. And while his upside is impressive, he is averaging 1.5 ppg less than Z, while averaging just 0.2 rpg more. So this 20 year old wunderkind that everyone on ABC is so excited about is… about the same as Zydrunas Ilgauskas this season. I’d still take Bynum’s next 2 years over Z’s next 2, but the notion that there are a ton of better centers than Z out there just isn’t true. And the centers that are better certainly aren’t changing teams.
Go Cavs.
Mike C.
December 26th, 2007 at 12:38 pm
Yes, Mike C. If you look at the numbers, Z is a better fit with LeBron than Bosh or Stoudamire anyway, so why would Ferry even consider going after someone like that? Doesn’t anyone remember “The Big Three?”
December 26th, 2007 at 1:14 pm
Hey Mike C… yes, Shannon Brown turns the ball over a lot but thats probably because HE’S HAD VERY LITTLE PLAYING TIME!!! You can’t expect these guys to play really well when they don’t get any minutes! But when he was in there you got to see his athletic ability….how many dunks did he throw down that got the Cavs bench (and the crowd) out of their seats? Several. To me, that shows he has potential. Give him more minutes so he can gel with the team before you start crying about his performance. You’ve been listening to that Alan moron who bases his opinion of a player on his hair style. I don’t know how he can form a negative opinion of Shannon Brown when the guy has seen so little playing time. Geez.
December 26th, 2007 at 1:31 pm
Calm down guys … the Z speech was obviously to drive blog hits up around the holidays, even if half of them come from alan t’s IP address …
December 26th, 2007 at 1:57 pm
Two biggest problems with Ilgauskas’ contract, aside from the sheer numbers which were 25% more than anybody else could offer that summer (Atlanta and Milwaukee evidently weren’t all too hot for him) (1) Long, long-term until he’s collecting social security by the time his contract ends. If Ferry wanted to go wacky while he’s bidding against himself, why didn’t he limit it to three to four years? (2) That killer 15% trade kicker which will make it impossible to ever get rid of him.
larry is right, we’re all looking forward to see his jersey and his wife’s nightgown hanging from the rafters. With the exception of Ferry himself, if you hang around the franchise long enough, you’ll eventually receive the honor.
But again, this ain’t Z’s fault. Can’t emphasize it enough. If somebody at work hands you a gift, you take it and run before the idiot that handed it to you changes his mind.
December 26th, 2007 at 2:10 pm
Uhhh … Harry, nice theory, but the only IP address I use is using my own name. If people have their own complaints with ‘ol Z, it’s their own sincere opinions, and they ,sure ain’t comin’ from me.
And my “Z speech” as you call it, was only written simply because Windy, for whatever reason known only to himself, out of the complete clear blue, decided to print his own “Z speech.” A silly Holiday point about the Cavaliers own Yellowstone Old Faithful, which certainly deserved a pointed counterpoint. I mean, anybody who sincerely believes that the guy was the perfect long-term big $$$ signing for LeBron James has been taking way too many swigs from the eggnog.
December 26th, 2007 at 2:35 pm
Hey, larry has a very good point. Whatever happened to Windy’s “The Big Three?” Windy hasn’t been calling anybody on the Cavaliers “The Big Three” anymore. Granted, I’m not much of a historian, but I thought the Cavs had their very own triumvirate of Truman, Churchill and Stalin.
December 26th, 2007 at 2:36 pm
I was talking about Brian’s speech, not yours, Alan, and how he knew that it would drive you crazy and cause you to post many, many times.
December 26th, 2007 at 6:06 pm
Hey, at least the Cavs don’t owe Z $30 Million a year for two more years. Also, J-Will is complete trash. Riley made a lot of moves but the catalysts for that “title” were a. Shaq and b. the refs.
If anyone thinks Miami beat Dallas that year then. . .
December 26th, 2007 at 7:21 pm
I went to the X-mas game. The apathy this team shows makes me sad. Makes me appreciate last years team… “sigh” : (
December 26th, 2007 at 8:39 pm
I couldn’t agree with you more about Z!
He won’t be appreciated until he’s gone…just like Brad…but Cleveland fans always want what they can’t have and don’t appreciate what they do have.
Z’s number SHOULD hang up there…he deserves it!!!
December 26th, 2007 at 9:23 pm
Please do not compare Z to Daugherty. Daughterty was a far superior player who had to retire much too young. The model the Cavaliers should follow is the one the Bulls used with Jordan and a dominant center (wennington, Cartwright, etc.) was not a priority. They needed a center who could play some defense and that is it. Ferry doesn’t seem to understand how to build around a player like Lebron who is multi-diminensional. The priority is, and should have been, to get him shooters, strong rebounders, someone who can slash to the hoop and create shots (i.e. pippen not hughes), and go from there. You think Kerr, Paxson, B.J. Armstrong, Horace Grant and even Scottie Pippen would have been half the players without Jordan? Great players make role players better. Z clogs up the middle, plays poor defense, and doesn’t fit with a quicker style of offense which is what the Cavaliers should be running with arguably the best open court player in the league. Instead, Lebron is forced to stand around in a half-court offense far too often. I would rather they had used Z’s $ if not to lure another free agent then to buy into the draft. But, we are way past that point now. Let’s hope Ferry can get Lebron the tools he needs. Varejo and Gibson fit very well with Lebron. Everyone else should be on the table.
December 27th, 2007 at 9:17 am
HEY im a big z fan, but i just would not gave him that big contract, heck he owed us for the big contract then he broke his foot, i like z, i just wish his contract was not so big and long…….hey i started to say something but i change my mind
December 27th, 2007 at 9:25 am
HEY A.T. how did shannon responded to eric i missed that tell me what happen. and u r right about danny resigning z, that was stupid, hell z owed us from his second contract when he was maxed out and broke his foot.
December 27th, 2007 at 9:33 am
Dave Robisch,
Good to see that you’re alive and well.
I agree that Ilgauskas is no Daugherty, but a couple of your other comments beg some scrutiny:
“The priority should have been to get [LeBron] shooters, strong rebounders, someone who could slash to the hoop and create shots.”
Didn’t Ferry try to do this? When he signed them, DJones and Marshall had the reps as quality outside shooters. That’s all Jones has really ever been able to do. He was a career 39% shooter from 3-pt range when he came here, and that’s about what he’s done here (38%).
Marshall had shot 41%, 40% and 38% from 3-pt range in his previous three seasons before becoming a Cav, and he had been a decent rebounder (8.1, 8, and 7.8 rebounds in about 31 minutes a game) immediately prior to his arrival.
Drafting Luke Jackson was also an attempt to buoy up the 3-pt shooting.
Rebounding? Ilgauskas doesn’t hurt the Cavs from a rebounding standpoint. As a point in fact, rebounding has been the absolute strength of this team over the previous three seasons (well, LeBron aside). Some of the reasons for that are the frontline, which includes Varejao and Gooden. The Cavs four main frontcourt players last year (excluding LeBron, although he’s certainly a very good rebounding 3) were arguably the best at rebounding in the league. That foursome (Gooden, Ilgauskas, Varejao, and Marshall) averaged 11.2 rebounds per 40 minutes of play last year.
Even Hughes averaged almost 4 boards a game last year, which is excellent for a guard.
There is something wrong with this team, and I agree (sort of) with your assessment on who should and who shouldn’t be available in trade. Heck, I don’t think Gibson is untouchable — and I think it’s likely we’ll see a similar problem with him next year to the ones we saw with Sasha and Varejao this year. Varejao, of course, can’t be traded for a while.
My point is that those signings and drafts, by and large, didn’t look nearly as bad at the time as they seem to look now. I give Alan Tucker and Larry D. credit, as they disliked the moves from the outset. Still, the moves were designed to do exactly what you suggest the Cavs try to do now. (It certainly hasn’t worked this year, and I doubt the Cavs would do them again — Ilgauskas excluded — if they knew the production they would receive.)
December 27th, 2007 at 10:54 am
Here are all of the NBA Free Agents over the last three seasons, including the year that Z, Hughes, Marshall and Jones were signed. Go take a look, and tell me where the Cavs should have spent their money. NBA Free Agency sucks. You can’t just go buy a contender like you can in baseball.
http://www.basslinespin.com/2005NBAFreeAgents.htm
http://www.basslinespin.com/2006NBAFreeAgents.htm
http://www.basslinespin.com/2007NBAFreeAgents.htm
In addition, the same site has a 2008 Draft ranking. Right now they have the Cavs selecting Roy Hibbert with the 13th pick. Maybe all this losing isn’t so bad.
In fact, I think that a title in 2006 (mortgaging this year at least), and a chance to draft Beasley or Rose in 2008 might be worth the misery that Heat fans are currently suffering. Think this is part of some grand tanking plan by Pat Riley? If so, he’s a genius.
Go Cavs. Tough one tonight.
Mike C.
December 27th, 2007 at 11:14 am
None of this stuff really matters. There are a lot of teams (Phoenix, Utah, etc) that are not playing well right now. Its early in the year, give this team time to get going. I still question whether we will make the playoffs, but I think its going to atleast be close.
And checkout Greg Odens blog… he even replies to peoples comments! How cool… http://www.yardbarker.com/users/gregoden
December 27th, 2007 at 11:26 am
You cannot win an NBA championship without an enforcing
shot blocking big man period. All this drivel about stats
and balloons for his wife and his feet and his giant bald melon
mean nothing. They may as well tank for Hibbert because
Orlando is the big up and comer with Howard. He is a beast.
Him and Oden will dominate in a few years. In the meantime
Duncan will win one or two more or the Pistons will win another. The Cavs have no chance unless they restructure.
December 27th, 2007 at 2:09 pm
Well, Kevin and Mike C., if Ferry didn’t take all that cap space like a hairless kid into an NBA candy store, and if Ferry had a semblance of a clue as to the smart, shrewd way to build a dynasty with LeBron and that much cap space at his immediate disposal, then the dude could have started with Allen Iverson and just about any other available guy on the trade market. If not that summer, then during the season. Or the next summer, for that matter. Very good players are always available on teams looking to rebuild, and James couldn’t have gone anywhere until the end of this season at the very earliest. It was three freakin’ years away, for Pete’s sakes. Why all of Ferry’s panic and myopia and your myopia and fascination with putting on a brand-new pair of Starburys and chasing just about any stiff free agent that doesn’t have a job will always be way beyond me. It just doesn’t make any sense.
All of these apologetic arguments of you guys will never wash. Stains aplenty.
By the way, JoeHoops, I might be clinically insane for actually agreeing with you on anything, but yes, that Oden blog is very good, I’ve always read it since he started it. Way, way better than Arenas’ blog, as Oden actually sits in his very own underwear and does the actual typing himself, which I think is very cool. Arenas, on the other hand, literally transcribes it to a dude employed by the NBA, who in turn actually edits it and writes it for the public so it’s reader-friendly. To me, that’s not a real blog. Windy writing his stuff with all the fresh gravy stains on his bare belly, a hole in the rear-end of his oversized boxer shorts and his one-eyed beagle laying on the aching tendinitis in Windy’s foot. Now that’s what I call a real blog, and it’s the reason I read it. I don’t even read Arenas’ blog anymore, not since the day he admitted it’s a ghostwriting fraud.
December 27th, 2007 at 2:19 pm
Billy, in answer to your question, Snow was trying to give Shannon Brown some advice on how to play and how to play a pro, and Brown blew him off like the petulant little snit he is. I noticed it. I was wondering if any of the announces would say anything about it, and indeed it eventually made Reggie Miller go positively nuts. When I get some time, I’m going to see if I can find the video of Brown’s reaction to Snow somewhere online, it now makes perfect sense why Brown got the crap beat out of him in that club.
Great job, Danny!
December 27th, 2007 at 2:31 pm
Jason Williams wants out of Miami and Riley wants him gone. Damon Jones wants out of Cleveland and Mike Brown apparently has no use for him. Jones/Newble for Williams matches salary-wise. Is Miami just waiting for Chris Quinn to come off the IR? This trade needs to happen.
Meanwhile, this blog has become worthless. I used to read it because Windhorst provided candid insight into the Cavs’ locker room and front office. Now, all Windhorst has time for is a half-ass game preview and wrap-up. Instead of singing Christmas carols with Damon Jones, maybe Mr. Windhorst could offer us some insight into the mounting trade rumors.
Were there any talks with the Nets over Jason Kidd? What was the hold-up? The Plain Dealer says that the Cavs are shopping Hughes. Any truth? Any interest… from anyone? I read a blurb in the Palm Beach post that said Damon Jones is singing in the locker room about getting traded. This can’t be good for team morale. What do the other guys think about this? in your preview, you allude to the fact that Hughes will be out of the rotation soon… in favor of whom?
This team is a mess… on and off the court. This has to be unprecedented for a team coming off a Conference Championship. There has to be a better story than Hughes moving in and out of the starting lineup. Get on your game Windhorst.
December 27th, 2007 at 2:37 pm
Yo Alan, my clinically insane buddy. Give Oden some time before he hires somebody to write his blog. Remember, he probably has more free time right now than the average NBA player, since he’s riding the bench waiting for the knee to heal. When he starts playing and practicing more, I look for his blogging to drop off, unless he hires somebody to do it. He just won’t have the time. Plus, he hasn’t gone Hollywood yet, but that is only a matter of time. These guys can only keep their ego’s in check for so long, and I’m sure Oden will follow suit. Can you imagine Lebron or Kobe blogging? I don’t think so. And I would venture to guess that if any of us were making NBA star money we wouldn’t spend our spare time behind a computer blogging. Personally, I would be hanging out with strippers and doing stuff like that.
December 27th, 2007 at 3:46 pm
Gibert Arenas writes a blog for nba.com at http://www.nba.com/blog/gilbert_arenas.html
December 27th, 2007 at 4:06 pm
- Jones and Newble for Jason Williams does work with the contracts. The Cavs would probably have to sweeten the deal to make up for the big differences in expiring contracts. I’m pretty sure the Heat are already tanking, so they might be willing to make the move even though they lose out talent-wise.
- If I was Danny Ferry, I would try to trade for Williams, then I would immediately turn around and trade Williams to the Sixers for Andre Miller. The Sixers would get all that money freed up for next year, while the Cavs would get their point guard.
- The Heat and Sixers could probably make that deal without the Cavs though. So I guess we just need to hope that Shaq really really misses his little buddy Damon.
- Nobody on the planet wants Larry Hughes. And the Cavs didn’t have the salaries to match to trade for Kidd unless the Nets take Hughes. And as stated earlier, nobody on the planet wants Larry Hughes.
- I think the Cavs win tonight, and everyone feels much better in the morning.
Go Cavs.
Mike C.
December 27th, 2007 at 4:41 pm
Some responses to what has been said before:
Everyone (and I mean everyone) could see that Donyell Marshall was softer than Dinner Bell Mel Turpin. He was a wasted sign from the start. Damen Jones was a good pick up and might actually score some points if given playing time at point. Hughes, well, we know his story. I did think it was a good pick up at the time. I don’t think anyone could have imagined the disaster he has become.
Shannon Brown leaned away from Snow because Snow was miked up. Plus, who would want to take advice from Eric Snow anyway. Would it be something like, “Shannon, here is how to miss a short range jumper?’
As for needing a shot blocking big man to win the title (which Z isn’t, by the way), see Jordan.
The key with Ferry is that he did not maintain financial flexibility for the team. As an earlier post said, if he had done that we could have explored trades in addition to free agency.
Danny Ferry was such a loser as a player and now it appears he is marching towards that reputation as a GM. Does he want to be known as the GM who couldn’t build a title team around Lebron James? Pat Riley, and others, would be licking their chops to have such an opportunity. Ferry is stuck on the San Antonio model which works when you have Tim Duncan. He should be looking at the Chicago model instead.
December 27th, 2007 at 4:45 pm
Boy, I agree with Mike C. on every point.
The Cavs record might have been better at this time last year, but they were apathetic and terrible and didn’t look like a team that even wanted to improve.
It’s borderline exciting to see that Varejao might have actually worked on his game during his long summer. He’s been a huge difference in the recent wins. If he can catch the ball and finish near the rim, and Gibson can keep hitting his threes, and Brown can keep all the other guards from shooting the ball, the Cavs will be all right.
December 27th, 2007 at 4:45 pm
First of all, this is turning into a really great thread, the back and forth is great.
For all the posters who disagreed with Ferry’s re-signing of Z (or the dollar amount involved), who should the Cavs have gone after to play center? I look over at Chicago and see a team with really good guards, no low post scoring threat, and a very defensive minded center quickly sinking to the bottom of the east. By replacing Z with a more athletic, better defending center, aren’t we reducing the Cavs to a perimeter shooting team? Something they obviously don’t have the talent to do. Thanks.
December 27th, 2007 at 6:01 pm
dave robisch u r funny as heck, mike c, u would kill them at the comedy club, as far as z i do not disagree with the resigning, i just would not have given him the years on the contract, as far as the paycut he took, HECK, he owed us.
December 27th, 2007 at 6:26 pm
I love the Monday Morning GM’s (see Alan T) we have on this blog who know exactly what Danny Ferry has done wrong (after the fact I might add) and know exactly what he should have done.
The funny thing is, that these Monday Morning GM’s are probably people that drive to work every morning in their mini van, sit behind a desk all day pushing papers, then drive back home in their mini van, eat a TV dinner while watching the Cavs game, kick their dog, then go to bed. Why don’t they have Danny Ferry’s job if they know so much LOL!!!!!
It really is hilarious and is probably the number one reason I read this blog. Funny as hell to read all the know-it-alls!!!!!!!
December 27th, 2007 at 9:51 pm
Hey Marc - the Damon Jones singing blurb from the Post came from THIS BLOG.
http://www.ohiomm.com/blogs/cavs/2007/12/23/cavs-vs-warriors/
And the Cavs have been “shopping” Hughes for two years. Duh!
December 28th, 2007 at 12:28 am
Monday morning quarterback? Several on this blog never had to wait until Monday. Everything Ferry does, it seems pretty obvious what the inevitable results are going to be when he does it. No Mondays are necessary.
And that nonsense about, “Why don’t they have Danny Ferry’s job if they know so much” is the type of bumpkin quote used by parents to teach children. In the real adult world, doesn’t hold water.
December 28th, 2007 at 12:42 am
Alan T., couldn’t agree with you more on your last comment. Being a GM in the NBA is not rocket science. Especially when you have the advantage of building around Lebron James. We are just holding Ferry accountable.
December 28th, 2007 at 8:28 am
OK Alan and David, you two clearly have all the answers, why don’t you give up your boring and lame day jobs to try and become an NBA GM, or maybe even coach. From reading your many posts on this blog, you clearly have all the answers. Time to walk the walk. It is a blatant waste of your talent to just post nonsense on a blog when you could really be using it to make big money in the league.
Now your turn. I can hear it now…. I will summarize your responses…. “yaddda yaddda yadddda yaddda yaddda”
February 8th, 2008 at 1:00 am
Hand Car Wash…
“Hand Car Wash” is a specialty of the Full-Service and Detail car wash systems. The highly automated car wash gets a personal cleaning touch when employees take a professional hand to shine your car. This personal touch ensures that no part of your c…