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	<title>Comments on: Cavs vs. Jazz</title>
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	<link>http://www.ohiomm.com/blogs/cavs/2007/11/16/cavs-vs-jazz/</link>
	<description>George Thomas on the Cavs</description>
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		<title>By: kevin andress</title>
		<link>http://www.ohiomm.com/blogs/cavs/2007/11/16/cavs-vs-jazz/comment-page-1/#comment-26776</link>
		<dc:creator>kevin andress</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 23 Nov 2007 13:20:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ohiomm.com/blogs/cavs/2007/11/16/cavs-vs-jazz/#comment-26776</guid>
		<description>Larry,

The reason I bring up a point about tips is that many seem to feel Ilgauskas really isn&#039;t much of an offensive rebounder, and tips are the reason. These people would argue that those tip rebounds are &quot;deceptive,&quot; because they imply a kind of control of the ball that didn&#039;t really exist. Perhaps they are right. I haven&#039;t actually seen anyone tell me how many times a game on average Z tips the ball to himself (hence, getting an offensive rebound).

But fair is fair. If those tips also count as shots (as they must, to get him a rebound), then  they also count as missed shots, and they are &quot;deceptive,&quot; because they imply he was controlling his shots in a way in which he was not.

Let&#039;s do a little real-world math on this. Last year, Ilgauskas averaged 3.1 offensive rebounds and 7.7 total rebounds in 27.4 minutes of action a game. Let&#039;s take away one of those &quot;controlled tips.&quot; Now he&#039;s at 2.1 and 6.7 rebounds in 27 minutes of action. His rebounding line certainly looks less impressive, even if you discount the minutes he plays.

He also shot .485 from the field, and his detractors say that&#039;s too low. Well, a tip rebound off his own miss means, necessarily, a missed shot. So, instead of making 4.9 of every 10.2 shots, subtract the one &quot;tip shot&quot; for which he received the &quot;bogus&quot; offensive rebound. Now he&#039;s making 4.9 of 9.2 shots, or .539 of his shots, which is a fine shooting percentage.

Take away the tip, you create a marginal big man rebounder (last year). But you also create a pretty good big man shooter (last year). It isn&#039;t fair to handicap his tip rebounds without handicapping his tip shots.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Larry,</p>
<p>The reason I bring up a point about tips is that many seem to feel Ilgauskas really isn&#8217;t much of an offensive rebounder, and tips are the reason. These people would argue that those tip rebounds are &#8220;deceptive,&#8221; because they imply a kind of control of the ball that didn&#8217;t really exist. Perhaps they are right. I haven&#8217;t actually seen anyone tell me how many times a game on average Z tips the ball to himself (hence, getting an offensive rebound).</p>
<p>But fair is fair. If those tips also count as shots (as they must, to get him a rebound), then  they also count as missed shots, and they are &#8220;deceptive,&#8221; because they imply he was controlling his shots in a way in which he was not.</p>
<p>Let&#8217;s do a little real-world math on this. Last year, Ilgauskas averaged 3.1 offensive rebounds and 7.7 total rebounds in 27.4 minutes of action a game. Let&#8217;s take away one of those &#8220;controlled tips.&#8221; Now he&#8217;s at 2.1 and 6.7 rebounds in 27 minutes of action. His rebounding line certainly looks less impressive, even if you discount the minutes he plays.</p>
<p>He also shot .485 from the field, and his detractors say that&#8217;s too low. Well, a tip rebound off his own miss means, necessarily, a missed shot. So, instead of making 4.9 of every 10.2 shots, subtract the one &#8220;tip shot&#8221; for which he received the &#8220;bogus&#8221; offensive rebound. Now he&#8217;s making 4.9 of 9.2 shots, or .539 of his shots, which is a fine shooting percentage.</p>
<p>Take away the tip, you create a marginal big man rebounder (last year). But you also create a pretty good big man shooter (last year). It isn&#8217;t fair to handicap his tip rebounds without handicapping his tip shots.</p>
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		<title>By: dave . . .</title>
		<link>http://www.ohiomm.com/blogs/cavs/2007/11/16/cavs-vs-jazz/comment-page-1/#comment-25876</link>
		<dc:creator>dave . . .</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 21 Nov 2007 23:57:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ohiomm.com/blogs/cavs/2007/11/16/cavs-vs-jazz/#comment-25876</guid>
		<description>brian you said a lot when you said &quot;it seemed like deron williams was too obsessed with trying to take gibson 1-on-1 and took a lot of off balance or bad shots. he went 4-of-17. boobie seemed like he was trying to create his own shot too much and went 1-of-9. both players were out of their comfort zone&quot;.  can you imagine what signing earl boykins would do for this team???  not only would it give them that offensive spark off the bench they have sorely lacked, it would also give them a faster point guard to deal with the tony parkers, the steve nashes, the deron williamses and the mo williamses of the nba world.  opposing guards would go out of their way to try and post earl up, go 4-for-17 since they would be out of their comfort zone, all the while earl pours in 15-20 points a game.  why the cavs &quot;braintrust&quot; can&#039;t see that is beyond me.  he is better than any point guard already currently on the roster by far and the only reason why they haven&#039;t signed him is simply because of his height, which they feel would put him at a disadvantage defensively, which is extremely short-sighted and negative &quot;half-empty&quot; thinking if you ask me.  i prefer to look at the glass as being &quot;half-full&quot; as far as boykins is concerned.  are you listening danny ferry???  the cavs are getting killed by opposing teams&#039; point guards, both on the offensive and defensive sides of the court.  surely earl could help even just a little???  sign boykins now!!!  &#039;nuff said.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>brian you said a lot when you said &#8220;it seemed like deron williams was too obsessed with trying to take gibson 1-on-1 and took a lot of off balance or bad shots. he went 4-of-17. boobie seemed like he was trying to create his own shot too much and went 1-of-9. both players were out of their comfort zone&#8221;.  can you imagine what signing earl boykins would do for this team???  not only would it give them that offensive spark off the bench they have sorely lacked, it would also give them a faster point guard to deal with the tony parkers, the steve nashes, the deron williamses and the mo williamses of the nba world.  opposing guards would go out of their way to try and post earl up, go 4-for-17 since they would be out of their comfort zone, all the while earl pours in 15-20 points a game.  why the cavs &#8220;braintrust&#8221; can&#8217;t see that is beyond me.  he is better than any point guard already currently on the roster by far and the only reason why they haven&#8217;t signed him is simply because of his height, which they feel would put him at a disadvantage defensively, which is extremely short-sighted and negative &#8220;half-empty&#8221; thinking if you ask me.  i prefer to look at the glass as being &#8220;half-full&#8221; as far as boykins is concerned.  are you listening danny ferry???  the cavs are getting killed by opposing teams&#8217; point guards, both on the offensive and defensive sides of the court.  surely earl could help even just a little???  sign boykins now!!!  &#8217;nuff said.</p>
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		<title>By: Mike Jones</title>
		<link>http://www.ohiomm.com/blogs/cavs/2007/11/16/cavs-vs-jazz/comment-page-1/#comment-24149</link>
		<dc:creator>Mike Jones</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 20 Nov 2007 06:59:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ohiomm.com/blogs/cavs/2007/11/16/cavs-vs-jazz/#comment-24149</guid>
		<description>Hey Brian, the blog sucks so far this year.  Normally its amazing and your columns rock, but you haven&#039;t been writing very much.  What&#039;s the deal?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hey Brian, the blog sucks so far this year.  Normally its amazing and your columns rock, but you haven&#8217;t been writing very much.  What&#8217;s the deal?</p>
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		<title>By: larry d.</title>
		<link>http://www.ohiomm.com/blogs/cavs/2007/11/16/cavs-vs-jazz/comment-page-1/#comment-23873</link>
		<dc:creator>larry d.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 20 Nov 2007 02:25:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ohiomm.com/blogs/cavs/2007/11/16/cavs-vs-jazz/#comment-23873</guid>
		<description>I never said they&#039;ve been better statistically than Z so far this season, Mike C. I said they&#039;re better players.

I also haven&#039;t been &quot;on Z&#039;s back&quot; at all. I&#039;ve praised his play this season many times on this blog. 

You implied that smart basketball fans who actually watch games would rather have Z playing next to LeBron than Stoudamire or Bosh. That pretty much speaks for itself.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I never said they&#8217;ve been better statistically than Z so far this season, Mike C. I said they&#8217;re better players.</p>
<p>I also haven&#8217;t been &#8220;on Z&#8217;s back&#8221; at all. I&#8217;ve praised his play this season many times on this blog. </p>
<p>You implied that smart basketball fans who actually watch games would rather have Z playing next to LeBron than Stoudamire or Bosh. That pretty much speaks for itself.</p>
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		<title>By: Tom</title>
		<link>http://www.ohiomm.com/blogs/cavs/2007/11/16/cavs-vs-jazz/comment-page-1/#comment-23726</link>
		<dc:creator>Tom</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 19 Nov 2007 23:54:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ohiomm.com/blogs/cavs/2007/11/16/cavs-vs-jazz/#comment-23726</guid>
		<description>Mike C.

99% of NBA analysis is based on reputation.  You would think in the age of the internet with stats at our fingertips and NBA league pass that people would actually be able to make accurate predictions.  It simply does not happen.

There are people right now saying:
1.) &quot;LeBron plays zero defense&quot;
2.) &quot;Shaq is a dominant center&quot;
3.) &quot;Tim Duncan is a Power Forward&quot;
4.) &quot;Chauncey Billups hits big shots all the time&quot;
5.) &quot;Gilbert Arenas is a great defensive player&quot;
6.) &quot;Kobe Bryant was the best player and leader of Team USA in this year&#039;s FIBA Americas.&quot;
7.) &quot;Carmelo Anthony is the most important FIBA player&quot;

On a scale of 0-10, 10 being entirely true, the above statements would be about this:
1.) 0
2.) 3
3.) 3
4.) 4
5.) 1
6.) 0
7.) 4

So yeah, reputation exceeds performance in my estimation 99% of the time.  I blame highlights.  Basketball may be a team game, but highlights are almost always cherry-picked to highlight pre-conceived notions about players/teams.

About that 6.)

I watched every minute of every FIBA game the last 2 years. I&#039;d just like to say Kobe Bryant wasn&#039;t nearly as good as his reputation.  Compare his stats from the tournament to LeBron&#039;s. http://www.fibaamericas.com/torneos_roster_us.asp?t=JMXULHQIUS&amp;team=379&amp;n=United%20States%20of%20America&amp;c=USA

I&#039;m convinced people didn&#039;t even watch the games.  His most prolific stats (Kobe&#039;s) were Turnovers and Personal Fouls.  Seriously 25 fouls!  Only Amare had more - and I keep hearing about his suffocating defense.  Puh-leeze.  All he did was stop Leandro Barbosa for ONE GAME.  The rest of the tournament he was getting beat off the dribble like crazy.  He&#039;s also a terrible help defender.  He forced shots all the time.  He missed open dunks and layups.  No one knows this because no one watched the games (except me) and the highlights would never show this.  Obviously Kobe is a great player, but my point is that I keep hearing about his amazing performance on team USA - it&#039;s just not true.  Not at all.  Totally reputation-based.  He did nothing to warrant this &quot;best player - team leader&quot; crap.

LeBron was CLEARLY the best player on the team.  He led the team in assists, 3pFG%, was second in steals, logged the most minutes, and would have set scoring records every game if melo ever passed.  The one game melo missed?  Bron goes 11-11 in the first half (4 treys) and sits for the second half.  Guess they really missed &#039;melo right?  Wrong.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Mike C.</p>
<p>99% of NBA analysis is based on reputation.  You would think in the age of the internet with stats at our fingertips and NBA league pass that people would actually be able to make accurate predictions.  It simply does not happen.</p>
<p>There are people right now saying:<br />
1.) &#8220;LeBron plays zero defense&#8221;<br />
2.) &#8220;Shaq is a dominant center&#8221;<br />
3.) &#8220;Tim Duncan is a Power Forward&#8221;<br />
4.) &#8220;Chauncey Billups hits big shots all the time&#8221;<br />
5.) &#8220;Gilbert Arenas is a great defensive player&#8221;<br />
6.) &#8220;Kobe Bryant was the best player and leader of Team USA in this year&#8217;s FIBA Americas.&#8221;<br />
7.) &#8220;Carmelo Anthony is the most important FIBA player&#8221;</p>
<p>On a scale of 0-10, 10 being entirely true, the above statements would be about this:<br />
1.) 0<br />
2.) 3<br />
3.) 3<br />
4.) 4<br />
5.) 1<br />
6.) 0<br />
7.) 4</p>
<p>So yeah, reputation exceeds performance in my estimation 99% of the time.  I blame highlights.  Basketball may be a team game, but highlights are almost always cherry-picked to highlight pre-conceived notions about players/teams.</p>
<p>About that 6.)</p>
<p>I watched every minute of every FIBA game the last 2 years. I&#8217;d just like to say Kobe Bryant wasn&#8217;t nearly as good as his reputation.  Compare his stats from the tournament to LeBron&#8217;s. <a href="http://www.fibaamericas.com/torneos_roster_us.asp?t=JMXULHQIUS&amp;team=379&amp;n=United%20States%20of%20America&amp;c=USA" rel="nofollow">http://www.fibaamericas.com/torneos_roster_us.asp?t=JMXULHQIUS&amp;team=379&amp;n=United%20States%20of%20America&amp;c=USA</a></p>
<p>I&#8217;m convinced people didn&#8217;t even watch the games.  His most prolific stats (Kobe&#8217;s) were Turnovers and Personal Fouls.  Seriously 25 fouls!  Only Amare had more &#8211; and I keep hearing about his suffocating defense.  Puh-leeze.  All he did was stop Leandro Barbosa for ONE GAME.  The rest of the tournament he was getting beat off the dribble like crazy.  He&#8217;s also a terrible help defender.  He forced shots all the time.  He missed open dunks and layups.  No one knows this because no one watched the games (except me) and the highlights would never show this.  Obviously Kobe is a great player, but my point is that I keep hearing about his amazing performance on team USA &#8211; it&#8217;s just not true.  Not at all.  Totally reputation-based.  He did nothing to warrant this &#8220;best player &#8211; team leader&#8221; crap.</p>
<p>LeBron was CLEARLY the best player on the team.  He led the team in assists, 3pFG%, was second in steals, logged the most minutes, and would have set scoring records every game if melo ever passed.  The one game melo missed?  Bron goes 11-11 in the first half (4 treys) and sits for the second half.  Guess they really missed &#8216;melo right?  Wrong.</p>
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		<title>By: Mike C</title>
		<link>http://www.ohiomm.com/blogs/cavs/2007/11/16/cavs-vs-jazz/comment-page-1/#comment-23622</link>
		<dc:creator>Mike C</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 19 Nov 2007 22:10:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ohiomm.com/blogs/cavs/2007/11/16/cavs-vs-jazz/#comment-23622</guid>
		<description>Anyone who would say that Amare Stoudamire or Chris Bosh has been better than Z so far this season isn&#039;t reading box scores *or* watching basketball.  They&#039;re just spewing the same old rhetoric.  Z has been very good this season, and the numbers back it up.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Anyone who would say that Amare Stoudamire or Chris Bosh has been better than Z so far this season isn&#8217;t reading box scores *or* watching basketball.  They&#8217;re just spewing the same old rhetoric.  Z has been very good this season, and the numbers back it up.</p>
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		<title>By: billy</title>
		<link>http://www.ohiomm.com/blogs/cavs/2007/11/16/cavs-vs-jazz/comment-page-1/#comment-23609</link>
		<dc:creator>billy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 19 Nov 2007 21:35:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ohiomm.com/blogs/cavs/2007/11/16/cavs-vs-jazz/#comment-23609</guid>
		<description>whats up, beno is really hooping wish we had him as our pt guard.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>whats up, beno is really hooping wish we had him as our pt guard.</p>
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		<title>By: Chuck</title>
		<link>http://www.ohiomm.com/blogs/cavs/2007/11/16/cavs-vs-jazz/comment-page-1/#comment-23312</link>
		<dc:creator>Chuck</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 19 Nov 2007 17:44:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ohiomm.com/blogs/cavs/2007/11/16/cavs-vs-jazz/#comment-23312</guid>
		<description>What was really silly was Chris Stein giving no mention of the Cavs frontcourt in his &quot;Big Three&quot; column, not even in his honorable mention area in which he included Portland&#039;s trio of Brandon Roy, LaMarcus Aldridge, and Greg Oden. Fine if you&#039;re not going to rank them in your top five, but putting them behind a trio with a guy who hasn&#039;t played in the NBA yet? Downright insulting.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What was really silly was Chris Stein giving no mention of the Cavs frontcourt in his &#8220;Big Three&#8221; column, not even in his honorable mention area in which he included Portland&#8217;s trio of Brandon Roy, LaMarcus Aldridge, and Greg Oden. Fine if you&#8217;re not going to rank them in your top five, but putting them behind a trio with a guy who hasn&#8217;t played in the NBA yet? Downright insulting.</p>
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		<title>By: Chuck</title>
		<link>http://www.ohiomm.com/blogs/cavs/2007/11/16/cavs-vs-jazz/comment-page-1/#comment-23307</link>
		<dc:creator>Chuck</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 19 Nov 2007 17:39:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ohiomm.com/blogs/cavs/2007/11/16/cavs-vs-jazz/#comment-23307</guid>
		<description>Tipping the ball out to a teammate could result in one of three stats:

1. Team rebound - basically the scorer deciding no single player should get credit for the rebound
2. Offensive rebound for Z - if the scorer decides Z took control of the ball and passed it off (could even lead to an assist)
3. Offensive rebound for the player the ball is tipped to - if the scorer decides the ball is still loose and the recieving player should get credit for a rebound</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Tipping the ball out to a teammate could result in one of three stats:</p>
<p>1. Team rebound &#8211; basically the scorer deciding no single player should get credit for the rebound<br />
2. Offensive rebound for Z &#8211; if the scorer decides Z took control of the ball and passed it off (could even lead to an assist)<br />
3. Offensive rebound for the player the ball is tipped to &#8211; if the scorer decides the ball is still loose and the recieving player should get credit for a rebound</p>
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		<title>By: larry d.</title>
		<link>http://www.ohiomm.com/blogs/cavs/2007/11/16/cavs-vs-jazz/comment-page-1/#comment-23201</link>
		<dc:creator>larry d.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 19 Nov 2007 16:03:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ohiomm.com/blogs/cavs/2007/11/16/cavs-vs-jazz/#comment-23201</guid>
		<description>Statistics don&#039;t tell the whole story for Devin Brown, but they do when you&#039;re arguing Z&#039;s superiority to Bosh and Stoudamire, Mike C.?

To argue that Z is a better caddy for LeBron than either of those two would be has nothing to do with &quot;watching basketball.&quot; It&#039;s box score analysis over a span of 10 games.

It&#039;s almost as silly as BW&#039;s article comparing the Cavs &quot;big three&quot; to the Celtics.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Statistics don&#8217;t tell the whole story for Devin Brown, but they do when you&#8217;re arguing Z&#8217;s superiority to Bosh and Stoudamire, Mike C.?</p>
<p>To argue that Z is a better caddy for LeBron than either of those two would be has nothing to do with &#8220;watching basketball.&#8221; It&#8217;s box score analysis over a span of 10 games.</p>
<p>It&#8217;s almost as silly as BW&#8217;s article comparing the Cavs &#8220;big three&#8221; to the Celtics.</p>
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