Cavs vs. Jazz
Posted November 16th, 2007 by Brian Windhorst
Pregame
Starting lineups
Jazz: Deron Williams, Ronnie Brewer, Andrei Kirilenko, Carlos Boozer, Mehmet Okur
Cavs: Daniel Gibson, Sasha Pavlovic, LeBron James, Drew Gooden, Zydrunas Ilgauskas
Officials
Mike Callahan, Pat Fraher, Ed Malloy…Pay no attention to the fact that Callahan and Malloy went to the same high school as Tim Donaghy.
–Sasha will start in place of Larry Hughes, out for a month with a bruised leg. Same lineup started in Utah last week.
–The Cavs have problems defending the Boozer/Williams pick-and-roll, let’s see how they handle it tonight. Williams overall didn’t play great last week, except for that one drive.
–Brewer, who is my early candidate for most improved player, sneaked up on the Cavs last time, especially with his ball hawking after rebounds and on outlet passes. I suspect they will pay a little more attention. In general, the Jazz like to try to pick the pocket of rebounds
–Paul Millsap had a career day last time against the Cavs, mostly because he worked harder. We’ll see how they deal with him tonight.
–Kirilenko can bother LeBron with his height both on jumpers and get blocks on weak drives. But if LeBron goes right at him, he has no chance whatsoever. We’ll see who’s will wins, especially early.
Halftime — Jazz 43, Cavs 39
–Cavs are playing some pretty good defense tonight, especially on the pick-and-roll. They’ve been burned because they are devoting three players to it, but overall it has been under control.
–The Jazz are the best offensive team in the NBA, averaging 109 points a game but are on pace for just 86. Expect them to pick it up some, therefore so must the Cavs on offense. They have done a great job scoring in the paint — 26 points — but their jump shooting has been quite poor.
–Williams is again not playing well, he’s just 2-of-9. Still, lookout.
–Daniel Gibson is trying to prove he can get his own shot tonight, trying to dribble drive and run off screens. So far he’s 1-of-6.
–Ira Newble did a respectable job working on Millsap, who still got five rebounds in 8:32.
–LeBron needs to became way more active for the Cavs to have a chance. Sometimes he gets the ball in the post and just waits for the Jazz to bring a double team and then looks to pass. He’s not yet in attack mode.
–The Jazz started the game 3-of-16 shooting and were only down three points. The Cavs may live to regret that.
–Oh, no good Boozer signs that I saw. And Brian you may be right, Cavs bench has two points in the first half.
Postgame — Cavs 99, Jazz 94
Stars:
LeBron James, 40 points
LeBron James, 10 rebounds
LeBron James, nine assists
LeBron James, three blocks
Carlos Boozer, 26 points, 11 rebounds
Zydrunas Ilgauskas, 17 points, 12 rebounds, six blocks
–Guess LeBron did get active in the second half, if you think 34 points is a good half.
–Let’s count the big plays LeBron made in the final eight minutes. He makes what could be an all-time highlight in his career by jumping out of bounds and batting the ball to Damon Jones for a 3-pointer. He hits a 26-foot 3-pointer on the Cavs’ fourth shot in one posession. He gets a 3-point play on a dunk in transition. He hits Ilgauskas for a jumper to give the Cavs the lead with 40 seconds left. He hits two free throws with 18 seconds left. He gets the block on Carlos Boozer (that’s what the stat guys called it, not a steal). He hits two free throws with 3.8 seconds left. He gets the game-winning rebound. He hits two more free throws just for the hell of it.
–As an aside, the Cavs are 38-of-43 at the line the last two games.
–This was the best defense the Cavs have played to date. They did an excellent job helping and dealing with the pick-and-roll. When they threw zone at Utah in the third quarter they didn’t know what to do and started missing long jumpers and turning it over, which let the Cavs pile up a bunch of fastbreak points.
–Ilgauskas is playing like an All-Star. And since some people seem to think this is so important, he had three assists tonight.
–It seemed like Deron Williams was too obsessed with trying to take Gibson 1-on-1 and took a lot of off balance or bad shots. He went 4-of-17. Boobie seemed like he was trying to create his own shot too much and went 1-of-9. Both players were out of their comfort zone.
–Boozer was excellent in the fourth quarter but he didn’t get many easy looks tonight like he did last week in Utah. By the way, Boozer badly wanted a foul on LeBron when he stripped him late even though it looked clean on the replays. Here is another reminder that calls usually even out.
–Ira Newble has earned the right to play and he battled in there. With LeBron, Damon Jones, Dwayne Jones and Devin Brown he was part of an 11-0 run in the fourth quarter. He deserves minutes every night right now. However, he’s going to get bulled by the bigger guys he is defending and giving my so many minutes late in the game might not be a great idea.
–The Cavs are 5-5 yet have not led a single game going into the fourth quarter yet. They have some issues to be sure, but looking at these 10 games before this all started I did not rule out 3-7.
Quotes
Mike Brown: “Hopefully sooner or later, people will start talking about LeBron as a great defender.”
LeBron: “Once I get going it is hard to stop me. I think my teammates fed off me being aggressive.”
Jerry Sloan: “It looked like we were afraid to get over in front of (James). He had a huge second half and that was the ball game.”
Boozer: “They have great fans and they’re very animated trying to distract me a little bit. But it’s all part of sports, it’s all fun and games.”
November 16th, 2007 at 8:18 pm
Any noteworthy anti-Boozer signs in the crowd?
November 16th, 2007 at 8:22 pm
Who does have a chance when Lebron goes right at them?
Anyways, I think Devin Brown should be starting with Pavs coming off the bench. Our bench scoring is supposed to come from who … Ira Newble? Yikes …
November 16th, 2007 at 9:55 pm
One other thing besides the bench points difference, the Utah bench played about 15 minutes more in the first half. Drew and Z may be gassed by the end of the game.
November 16th, 2007 at 10:07 pm
Z must feel like Rodney Dangerfield’s twin brother right now.
No respect.
November 16th, 2007 at 11:02 pm
Another entertaining game between these two teams.
I agree that bench scoring is becoming a concern. Maybe we should consider starting Devin Brown and have Sasha come off the bench.
Ferry has his work cut out for him.
November 16th, 2007 at 11:04 pm
Lebron is a STUD! He nearly had another triple double. I wonder what him and Boozer were jawing about after Lebron stripped the ball. Maybe Brian can elaborate on what was said. They appeared to be friendly after the game.
November 17th, 2007 at 1:12 am
If idiot Paxson could have kept Loozer we would have won 2
championships already. How did he bungle that deal? If the
Cavs can find Lebrons Pippen after flubbing on Loozer and Larry
“I am the MASH unit” IT WILL BE A MIRACLE!!!!!!! Watching that
second half from James was like watching Magic and Jordan rolled into one. That behind the back fake and slam was Jordanesque. Is there any way we can rid of Larry. PLEASE.
Potato Head should give Shannon another shot. They might be
wrong about him. HE needs to play. One exhibition season does
not make a season.
November 17th, 2007 at 1:18 am
Alright the blog is BAAAAAAAAAAAACK.
Joe Hoops vs. Tucker.
Steel cage match.
Will Reverend Billy please come forth to spew piss vinegar
sermons and venom.
Go Cavs. Down with rageaholic Rick.
November 17th, 2007 at 3:08 am
LeBron is the best player in the league. PERIOD. A slightly younger Duncan (and obv younger Shaq) would be the only players to consider starting a team with besides LeBron. But as of right now, and for the last 3 years for that matter, LeBron is the best in the NBA. Kobe cant touch him. LeBron makes crucial game-winning type plays game in and game out, and does it in every facet of the game. If LeBron wants to score, he scores. If you foul him, its an and-1. If he wants a rebound late in the game he gets it, and nearly makes the ball explode most of the time. Big time assists down the stretch? Every game. Steals to win games? Yep. Blocks? See tonight. Clutch goes so far beyond scoring. LeBron is the most clutch player in the NBA. The other night there were orlando fans going on about how they would take Howard over Bron “anyday”. It’s amazing how people can be so ignorant.
November 17th, 2007 at 4:02 am
Somehow - LeBron’s pass to Damon Jones didn’t make the ESPN Top 10. I just kept thinking it was going to be number 2 or 1 - and IT WASN’T ANY OF THEM!
One of the most athletic/finesse heads up plays I’ve seen and it doesn’t even crack the top 10.
Unbelievable.
November 17th, 2007 at 4:20 am
I dunno, Howard is pretty awesome, and a center. What is he, 20? Would I rather have Lebron - I wouldn’t trade him for anyone in the NBA, but I’m a Cavs fan born in Akron. But others might take Howard if they were starting a team today. Kobe’s right there, too, because he is a far better shooter than Lebron, and has everything except Lebron’s power game. He’s just 7 years older. Ditto Garnett. Other than those three, I don’t know why you’d want anyone else. I love Wade’s skills, but he is proving to be fragile.
I feel like we are watching the best player of his era coming into his own.
November 17th, 2007 at 10:29 am
Yo jmoe, Tucker doesn’t have a chance against me now. I’ve been away for the last couple months training, and I’m in the best blog commenting shape of my life. Bring it Tucker!!
Go Cavs!
Go Buckeyes!
November 17th, 2007 at 10:59 am
How about the defensive enforcer Z getting 6 blocks?
Besides the scoring, Millsap is a reminder of how nice it is to have rebounding/energy off the bench. It’s not always obvious but there are times they miss AV.
November 17th, 2007 at 11:36 am
Chuck…Howard? No way. James is a beast who can actually create his own shot and create for others. Howard, while a GREAT big man is reliant on other people. No, make no mistake about it, the guy you start a team with is James. Kobe’s NOT a far better shooter than James. He is a better jump shooter, no doubt about it, but not by far. And James is a better passer, a better rebounder and probably most importantly a better teammate than Kobe. And 7 years is a lot in pro sports. Make no mistake about it, James is the best and he plays for the Cavaliers. It’s pretty freaking sweet to even say that.
November 17th, 2007 at 12:44 pm
“Ilgauskas is playing like an All-Star. And since some people seem to think this is so important, he had three assists tonight.”
BW, only one moron (namely the Tuck) is looking for Z to be a passing machine. Anyone else without hair plugs and winnie the pooh shower curtains can realize that Z has been making a damn good contribution at the start of this season. So please don’t write to appease the foolishness of Tucker.
November 17th, 2007 at 5:48 pm
Well, lookee here! We have Mr. Windhorst making his first contribution to “stupidest thing I’ve read on a blog this season” with this little nugget : “By the way, Boozer badly wanted a foul on LeBron when he stripped him late even though it looked clean on the replays. Here is another reminder that calls usually even out.”
So, let’s recap, the play “looked clean on the replay” YET Mr. W. would like a NON-FOUL to remind us that bad FOUL or bad NO calls “even out” over the course of a season. Huh?
Mr. W should realize if something looks like a foul on replay and is NOT called it is a MISSED call while something that doesn’t look like a foul on replay and is NOT called a foul is a GOOD call. One would think a professional basketball beat-writer would fathom this fairly fundamental point.
Btw, LBJ, if he can improve his jumper in the next two or so years will be the best basketball player I’ve ever seen, bypassing Bird and MJ in my eyes. He has already surpassed Magic because of his superior offensive skills.
November 18th, 2007 at 1:20 am
When Z gets all of those tips around the basket how are they scored - rebounds or shot attempts? Or do they count as anything at all?
November 18th, 2007 at 8:57 am
Those are offensive rebounds, I believe, which might be one reason the big fellow leads the league in that category.
Z should be a better passer than he is and Tucker is right in that regard.
People who think Z should be an all-star are relying on the notion that he’s one of the few classic centers in the league. They conveniently ignore the fact that those classic back to the basket centers were passers. Even Shaq is very good in that regard.
If Z’s not that kind of center, I’m not sure how you can say he should be an all-star over Howard, Garnett, Bosh, etc., etc. He’s just not as good as those guys.
That said, I’m just happy that Z is playing better than he has played, probably in his career. He can be very disruptive when he’s moving around some and hopefully he’ll keep blocking shots too.
November 18th, 2007 at 9:41 am
I’m not sure how a character who calls himself or herself “Coon” and who uses a transparent use of the N-word was allowed to post a racial epithet, but I hope that person is booted from this blog.
November 18th, 2007 at 6:54 pm
larry d. says it far better than I did. But he neglected to mention that Z could finally become a passer if he starts hitting the tanning beds like Andris Biedrins and Bob Sura. He is very difficult for his teammates to see. Other than that, right on the money.
Ilgauskas can’t possibly keep up this pace with 72 more games plus playoffs, even if he’s been shopping at the same anti-aging clinic as Paul Byrd. He’s playing relatively well, if there was ever a time to make a concerted effort to unload Ilgauskas and the three years left on his contract, do it now. That 15% trade escalation kicker hurts, but I guess it doesn’t really matter, Ferry doesn’t appear to have the balls to even try.
Kevin, where is there a poster named Coon? Musta missed it. Although I just saw Gene Simmons on TV, and that thing sitting on top of his head sure looks like one. Or three.
November 18th, 2007 at 11:48 pm
Alan,
It appears that poster’s comment was removed, but it was there earlier today, and it was a rip on Jmoe. I have neither affection nor disdain for Jmoe, nor do I know his ethnicity, but the poster called him the n-word (preceded [sp?] by the letter j). I’m glad the editors/Brian/whomever purged it.
Does anyone else think Ilgauskas looks like he’s in better shape this year?
I agree that the Cavs may be in trouble if they expect him to maintain a 34+ minute a game pace all year and not wear down.
BTW, if we discount Z’s offensive rebounds because they’re tips, then don’t we need to credit his shooting percentage? I mean, tips count as shots, right?
November 18th, 2007 at 11:51 pm
Alan,
The post has been purged, but it was there earlier. It referred to Jmoe by using the n-word preceded by the letter j. I’m glad it was deleted.
I agree that the Cavs will be in trouble if they expect Z to play 34+ minutes a game and not wear down.
Is it me, or does he seem to be in better shape this year?
If we discount Z’s offensive rebounds because so many come on tips, don’t we then also need to credit his shooting percentage since those tips also count as shots?
November 19th, 2007 at 12:09 am
It’s an interesting test of the value of statistics, Kevin.
When Z tips the ball three times and it finally goes in, one observer might say that’s a valuable player because he controlled the ball and put it in the hole.
But another might say, wow I wish he could grab the rebound and go up strong like Shaq. That would fire up his teammates and lessen the chance that an opposing player will get the rebound.
I think either judgement would be more meaningful than saying Z grabbed three offensive boards and shot 33 percent from the field.
November 19th, 2007 at 4:17 am
If you tip it as an attempt to put it in the basket, it counts as a shot attempt and an offensive rebound. If you just tip it up in the air to keep it alive, it doesn’t count as anything. It’s the scorer’s call to make.
I figure Z tips the ball more than other players because he is so long, he can get the tips of his fingers on balls other players can’t get to, especially on the second and third tip, when other rebounders have already jumped once. He has a knack for tipping the ball like no one I’ve ever seen, and probably tips balls he can’t get both hands on to corral. If he tips it into the basket, it’s unlikely to be blocked and it was probably done in heavy traffic, so he might not be able to dunk it, anyway.
That being said, I’d love to see Z try to dunk more balls when he gets in close. As goos as he is, he misses a couple layups from the post each game that I think he could have dunked. Brad Daugherty used to do the same thing, and it drove me crazy then, too.
November 19th, 2007 at 10:39 am
What happens as far as stats when he tips it to a teammate?
November 19th, 2007 at 10:53 am
They are a scrappy team. i am enjoying their play being short-handed.
visit by blog site
http://www.winengoldrants.blogspot.com
November 19th, 2007 at 11:02 am
Late thoughts on the Cavs-Jazz game:
- Another week, another Friday victory (that’s 3 for 3 so far).
- LeBron is playing out of his mind. Or at least, that’s what I would think, if it wasn’t for that fact that he has gotten consistently better through his first four years in the League. The sky is the limit for him.
- At the same time, if they need LeBron to be this dominant to win, it’s going to be a long season. Hopefully the other guys can use this time to find their rhythm, and can contribute more as the season progresses.
- That last comment does not include Z, who has been tremendous so far. Someone above commented that Chris Bosh deserved an All-Star spot over Z. This person hasn’t been watching basketball. Bosh is averaging 16.2 points and 6.9 rebounds per game, while shooting 40% from the field. Amare Stoudamire has been averaging 16.1 points and 7.4 rebounds per game, and has been hurt (again), limiting him to only 7 games. Bosh and Stoudamire are perfect examples of big men that people would love to see teamed up with LeBron, yet both have been less productive than Z through the first 10 games. That might not hold up, but it certainly seems like a good reason to get off of Z’s back for a bit.
- If Daniel Gibson was playing as well as Z, people would be throwing flowers at his feet. As it is, he has been wildly inconsistent, going just 1-9 last night after going 5-5 against Orlando. He did manage 6 rebounds and 5 assists, so he was contributing in other ways, but the Cavaliers need him to put up some points. They need *someone* besides LeBron to put up some points.
- As for the Howard vs. LeBron debate, it depends what you’re asking. LeBron is the better player, but as the Cavs have shown, he’s much harder to build around. It is much easier to build a championship-caliber team around a dominant big man (like Shaq used to be, or Howard may become), because it’s easier to find quality wing players to compliment the big man. Still, I wouldn’t trade LeBron for anybody.
- Statistics don’t tell everything, but they are useful when you’re trying to determine if you’re seeing the whole picture. I think that Devin Brown has been very helpful to the Cavaliers so far this season, but he’s only shooting 35% from the field, and 21% from beyond the arc. His shooting inefficiency is a problem, and it’s cancelling out some of his positive contributions. At the same time, just looking at the shooting percentage numbers wouldn’t tell you that Devin Brown has been vital in helping the Cavs match up defensively against guards that have been abusing Daniel Gibson.
- The Cavs have four very winnable games against Milwaukee, Minnesota, Toronto and Indiana coming up. Hopefully they can make some hay and get that record well above .500 before the Celtics come to town.
Go Cavs.
Mike C.
November 19th, 2007 at 11:03 am
Boykins could solve the problem of lack of bench scoring.
November 19th, 2007 at 11:38 am
“People who don’t think they should ever be benched might have to come off the bench for a while just to turn this whole thing around,” Riley told Miami reporters.
Perhaps Riley meant Ricky Davis, too, though he’s been benched before. Wondered one old Riley confidant: “He had him before. How could he not know?”
Courtside scouts following the Heat have been saying they see Davis waving off Riley and telling other players he isn’t going to run that stuff.
–http://chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sports/basketball/bulls/cs-071118smith,1,4737284.column?coll=cs-bulls-headlines
Yeah, good call, alan, on Davis “being on his best behavior”. It’s only taken 10 games for Davis to start creating problems. And the only person who is shocked by this, is you, evidently. I mean, I’m sure you’re going to spin this somehow and say it’s Shaq’s fault for being so fat and lazy, or Riley’s fault for being so old and not coaching an energetic offensive scheme to somehow fit Ricky Davis’s “style”. But whatever, the dude’s a cancer. Always has been, and clearly always will.
November 19th, 2007 at 12:03 pm
Statistics don’t tell the whole story for Devin Brown, but they do when you’re arguing Z’s superiority to Bosh and Stoudamire, Mike C.?
To argue that Z is a better caddy for LeBron than either of those two would be has nothing to do with “watching basketball.” It’s box score analysis over a span of 10 games.
It’s almost as silly as BW’s article comparing the Cavs “big three” to the Celtics.
November 19th, 2007 at 1:39 pm
Tipping the ball out to a teammate could result in one of three stats:
1. Team rebound - basically the scorer deciding no single player should get credit for the rebound
2. Offensive rebound for Z - if the scorer decides Z took control of the ball and passed it off (could even lead to an assist)
3. Offensive rebound for the player the ball is tipped to - if the scorer decides the ball is still loose and the recieving player should get credit for a rebound
November 19th, 2007 at 1:44 pm
What was really silly was Chris Stein giving no mention of the Cavs frontcourt in his “Big Three” column, not even in his honorable mention area in which he included Portland’s trio of Brandon Roy, LaMarcus Aldridge, and Greg Oden. Fine if you’re not going to rank them in your top five, but putting them behind a trio with a guy who hasn’t played in the NBA yet? Downright insulting.
November 19th, 2007 at 5:35 pm
whats up, beno is really hooping wish we had him as our pt guard.
November 19th, 2007 at 6:10 pm
Anyone who would say that Amare Stoudamire or Chris Bosh has been better than Z so far this season isn’t reading box scores *or* watching basketball. They’re just spewing the same old rhetoric. Z has been very good this season, and the numbers back it up.
November 19th, 2007 at 7:54 pm
Mike C.
99% of NBA analysis is based on reputation. You would think in the age of the internet with stats at our fingertips and NBA league pass that people would actually be able to make accurate predictions. It simply does not happen.
There are people right now saying:
1.) “LeBron plays zero defense”
2.) “Shaq is a dominant center”
3.) “Tim Duncan is a Power Forward”
4.) “Chauncey Billups hits big shots all the time”
5.) “Gilbert Arenas is a great defensive player”
6.) “Kobe Bryant was the best player and leader of Team USA in this year’s FIBA Americas.”
7.) “Carmelo Anthony is the most important FIBA player”
On a scale of 0-10, 10 being entirely true, the above statements would be about this:
1.) 0
2.) 3
3.) 3
4.) 4
5.) 1
6.) 0
7.) 4
So yeah, reputation exceeds performance in my estimation 99% of the time. I blame highlights. Basketball may be a team game, but highlights are almost always cherry-picked to highlight pre-conceived notions about players/teams.
About that 6.)
I watched every minute of every FIBA game the last 2 years. I’d just like to say Kobe Bryant wasn’t nearly as good as his reputation. Compare his stats from the tournament to LeBron’s. http://www.fibaamericas.com/torneos_roster_us.asp?t=JMXULHQIUS&team=379&n=United%20States%20of%20America&c=USA
I’m convinced people didn’t even watch the games. His most prolific stats (Kobe’s) were Turnovers and Personal Fouls. Seriously 25 fouls! Only Amare had more - and I keep hearing about his suffocating defense. Puh-leeze. All he did was stop Leandro Barbosa for ONE GAME. The rest of the tournament he was getting beat off the dribble like crazy. He’s also a terrible help defender. He forced shots all the time. He missed open dunks and layups. No one knows this because no one watched the games (except me) and the highlights would never show this. Obviously Kobe is a great player, but my point is that I keep hearing about his amazing performance on team USA - it’s just not true. Not at all. Totally reputation-based. He did nothing to warrant this “best player - team leader” crap.
LeBron was CLEARLY the best player on the team. He led the team in assists, 3pFG%, was second in steals, logged the most minutes, and would have set scoring records every game if melo ever passed. The one game melo missed? Bron goes 11-11 in the first half (4 treys) and sits for the second half. Guess they really missed ‘melo right? Wrong.
November 19th, 2007 at 10:25 pm
I never said they’ve been better statistically than Z so far this season, Mike C. I said they’re better players.
I also haven’t been “on Z’s back” at all. I’ve praised his play this season many times on this blog.
You implied that smart basketball fans who actually watch games would rather have Z playing next to LeBron than Stoudamire or Bosh. That pretty much speaks for itself.
November 20th, 2007 at 2:59 am
Hey Brian, the blog sucks so far this year. Normally its amazing and your columns rock, but you haven’t been writing very much. What’s the deal?
November 21st, 2007 at 7:57 pm
brian you said a lot when you said “it seemed like deron williams was too obsessed with trying to take gibson 1-on-1 and took a lot of off balance or bad shots. he went 4-of-17. boobie seemed like he was trying to create his own shot too much and went 1-of-9. both players were out of their comfort zone”. can you imagine what signing earl boykins would do for this team??? not only would it give them that offensive spark off the bench they have sorely lacked, it would also give them a faster point guard to deal with the tony parkers, the steve nashes, the deron williamses and the mo williamses of the nba world. opposing guards would go out of their way to try and post earl up, go 4-for-17 since they would be out of their comfort zone, all the while earl pours in 15-20 points a game. why the cavs “braintrust” can’t see that is beyond me. he is better than any point guard already currently on the roster by far and the only reason why they haven’t signed him is simply because of his height, which they feel would put him at a disadvantage defensively, which is extremely short-sighted and negative “half-empty” thinking if you ask me. i prefer to look at the glass as being “half-full” as far as boykins is concerned. are you listening danny ferry??? the cavs are getting killed by opposing teams’ point guards, both on the offensive and defensive sides of the court. surely earl could help even just a little??? sign boykins now!!! ’nuff said.
November 23rd, 2007 at 9:20 am
Larry,
The reason I bring up a point about tips is that many seem to feel Ilgauskas really isn’t much of an offensive rebounder, and tips are the reason. These people would argue that those tip rebounds are “deceptive,” because they imply a kind of control of the ball that didn’t really exist. Perhaps they are right. I haven’t actually seen anyone tell me how many times a game on average Z tips the ball to himself (hence, getting an offensive rebound).
But fair is fair. If those tips also count as shots (as they must, to get him a rebound), then they also count as missed shots, and they are “deceptive,” because they imply he was controlling his shots in a way in which he was not.
Let’s do a little real-world math on this. Last year, Ilgauskas averaged 3.1 offensive rebounds and 7.7 total rebounds in 27.4 minutes of action a game. Let’s take away one of those “controlled tips.” Now he’s at 2.1 and 6.7 rebounds in 27 minutes of action. His rebounding line certainly looks less impressive, even if you discount the minutes he plays.
He also shot .485 from the field, and his detractors say that’s too low. Well, a tip rebound off his own miss means, necessarily, a missed shot. So, instead of making 4.9 of every 10.2 shots, subtract the one “tip shot” for which he received the “bogus” offensive rebound. Now he’s making 4.9 of 9.2 shots, or .539 of his shots, which is a fine shooting percentage.
Take away the tip, you create a marginal big man rebounder (last year). But you also create a pretty good big man shooter (last year). It isn’t fair to handicap his tip rebounds without handicapping his tip shots.