–To start with, the Mike Bibby deal looks to be totally off. While I was confident last week because the talks were ongoing, with the Kings signing Mikki Moore, they likely are no longer interested in Drew Gooden. There are all sorts of rumors flying around the league as to why the deal did not get done last week when it was on the table. I’m not going to relate them here, but let’s just say some are weird and wild. The Cavs really liked Luis Scola, who they could’ve acquired from the Spurs if they were willing to take Jackie Butler after the Bibby talks stopped. They were not, so they didn’t get that deal done either. Scola is an excellent pick-and-roll player and a good passer. He should excel in Houston, Rick Adelman’s offense needs good passing big men (Chris Webber, Vlade Divac, etc.).
–The Cavs believe the best way for the team to improve is through a trade, not the free agent market. Which is why they have been on the sidelines. Some trades come off in a hurry, some take time. The Cavs have been discussions with many teams. They do not have to make the trade today or even at the start of the season. Because they are so close, what is important is the trade works. Not how fast it is done. That may not be popular truth, but it is reality.
–Much of what happens in summer league can be thrown out, especially the stats. They are a basis to make some judgments, but more importantly Vegas sort of gives an update on where players are. Last year, for example, Sasha Pavlovic played and was pretty much terrible. Obviously, it wasn’t the end for him. That said, Shannon Brown was not especially impressive. He wasn’t bad, he did some good things, but there were not signs that he was about to take a big step. He handled the ball a lot and made some nice passes, but he is not a point guard. He did not shoot well from the outside and overall did not execute at a high percentage went going to the basket. He did show some amazing athleticism, which is his best attribute. Based on the way the Cavs currently are put together, I find it hard to believe he will be able to play ahead of Pavlovic, Eric Snow or Daniel Gibson. He is a better defender than Damon Jones, but his shooting issues will make it challenging for him to get major minutes. Several coaches/scouts told me they were underwhelmed by him. So that’s the report, it isn’t the final one, just the latest.
–Meanwhile, Gibson picked right back up where left off at the end of the season. He missed two games with injury, but for the most part he shot well and let the game come to him. He continues to work on the little floater in the lane, which has the potential to be a nice weapon. The Cavs front office is more convinced than ever that he could be a special player.
–Based on what I saw, the Cavs coaches told me and other scouts and coaches said, there didn’t appear to be any other players on the Cavs summer team who are serious candidates to make the team.
–Right now, the Cavs are considering opening the regular season with Larry Hughes at point guard. They are exploring other options to be sure, but in the short term it may very well be the best option if the roster stays intact. Please consider the following:
Here are numbers from the 24 games Hughes started at point guard in the regular season:
Record: 17-7
PPG: 99.6
FG pct.: .464
APG: 23.4
In those games, Hughes averaged 15.4 points and 4.1 assists.
Numbers when someone else started:
Record: 33-25
PPG: 95.6
FG pct.: .440
APG: 19.8
He may not be the total answer there, but I often think many fans overlook his value because everyone thinks about his contract first. He does not produce at a near-max deal level, that is a reality. He should not be shooting so many jumpers. But he is a quality player and was a big part of many Cavs wins over the last two years.
–The word going around the NBA is that the Spurs are ready to sign defensive wing Ime Udoka, who had a good year in Portland last year. But right now the Spurs are over the luxury-tax threshold and want to get under it to make the deal. The Cavs have David Wesley (cap number $1.8 million, real money owed $250,000) and a $2.2 million trade exception. There may be a deal to be made there, remember the Cavs like third-string point guard Beno Udrih. The Cavs could trade either for Udrih, if the Spurs can part with him for nothing in return, which isn’t certain. Although, they just gave away Scola and Butler for no players in return.
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I watched the summer league games on TV. I was excited by Shannon Brown’s athleticism, but disappointed in his lack of maturity and decision making. Yes, he can dunk on three people. Yes he’s built like a linebacker and plays solid defense. But he guns like World B. Free and still makes tons of mistakes in traffic. That’s not going to get it done on a team with championship aspirations. The one thing that supposedly separated him from the sophomore and freshman draftees was that he was well coached at Michigan State. Hopefully, he’ll begin to exhibit some intelligence on the floor and dispense with the playground ball for good. Like Brian said, Sasha was so terrible last summer, we couldn’t even showcase him for a cheap trade. Look at him now.
Is Darius Rice a real prospect or not? If Donyell Marshall weren’t clogging up the bench, I think he’d be a nice roll player.
It’s good to see we’re not in a hurry to make a stupid trade. I still think Bibby for Gooden would have left us with our shorts around our ankles in the front court.
How did Kevin Pittsnogle play? I really want to hear Joe Tait pronouncing Pittsnogle. (a 6-11 outside shooting specialist would be a good 12th man perhaps?)
Well there it is! The Cavs again did the right thing this summer, making no major moves but nurturing those longterm plans to land Beno Udrih. He should be here by 2009.
Very, very smart.
I’m dissappointed that Darius Rice isn’t going to make the team. I thought he looked very good in the Summer League.
And THANK GOD the Bibby deal is off. Geez – Don’t trade big for small. Develop your players. I do not believe Sasha, LeBron, Boobie, Gooden, Varaejo, or Brown have hit their ceiling. They still have upside.
I have to respectfully disagree with your assessment of Shannon Brown. Although I do feel as if he does need to slow things down and try to be a little more in control, I think he does get a chance to play this year over Damon Jones and Eric Snow. Shannon brown can play defense and score. He does have an outside shot that may not look pretty but it seems to go in. He may have shot poorly in the summer league, but just like you said, its summer league. Players such as Shannon are working on weaknesses they have and not neccessarily doing what they’d do if the game counted. So when you’re playing not to win or look good but to improve a certain spot of your game, there’s a good chance your not going to look good. Although he definitely needs to improve his game, he is a bright spot and a prospect that all Cavaliers fans should feel good about. Also, I love your column and your blog. It’s hard right now to find alot of articles or anything to read on the Cavs. But we can always count on you. Keep up the good work.
“He does have an outside shot that may not look pretty but it seems to go in.” Huh? When has Shannon Brown EVER had an outside game? The answer? Never. He’s a tremendous athlete that would look pretty good on a team that has outside shooters. Hopefully, Gobson and Sasha can actually be those guys for the Cavs. If they can, this team will be the beast in the East. Imagine lanes actually opening for James?
The Cavs big assets are LeBron, Youth and a big, deep,talented front line. Hopefully we will not trade these assets away for uncertainty.
You revealed that Bob Finnan won a bar bet by farting the classic riff from Deep Purple’s “Smoke on the Water,” but you won’t reveal “weird and wild” stories behind the failed Bibby deal?
No mention of Blatche, Etan, or JCN. Cavs must have cooled on them as hoopshype keeps having articles about the Heat and Griz pushing for JCN. I am looking forward to something happening to this roster. I don’t know if it is just for the sake of something happening or not though.
Beno Udrih. Kevin Pittsnogle. Shannon. Brown. Ladies and gentlemen: your summer of 2007 Cavalier highlights!
I feel a quality true PG is needed for this team, especially one that can score when given the ball.
The “Top 10″ that may be available via trade and I would pursue if I was Danny are:
(1) Jarrett Jack, Portland ($1.2M)
(2) Carlos Arroyo, Orlando ($4M)
(3) Jose Manuel Calderon, Toronto ($2.47M)
(4) Delonte West, Seattle ($1.88M)
(5) Sarunas Jasikevicius, Golden State ($4M)
(6) Beno Udrich, San Antonio (Sign-&-Trade)
(7) Jason Terry, Dallas ($8.28M)
(8) Luther Head, Houston ($1.12M)
(9) Luke Ridnour, Seatle ($6.5M)
(10) Mike Bibby, Sacrameto ($13.5M)
Otherwise, I don’t see Larry Hughes being the answer to anything!!!
In response to DaveR, your list indicates the problems with trading for a point guard right now.
The players who would fit best (I would put Calderon at the top of the list) are all making salaries that the Cavs would have difficulty matching with similiarly-valued assets. A guy like Shannon Brown is too inexperienced and still makes more money. The trade exception won’t work because no one is going to give up Calderon or Jack for nothing.
Basically, the Cavs would have to trade Gibson to get the best players on this list, and they aren’t going to do that. The point guard market is bad for everyone (the Heat are having this exact same problem), and the Cavs are just going to have to cross their fingers and hope that the players already in the fold improve, because help isn’t coming from a trade.
As an aside, this is just more evidence that the NBA Players Association is a joke. Good, mid-range players in their prime are getting squeezed constantly, while slightly better players like Rashard Lewis and Larry Hughes are making the max several years after they are no longer useful.
Go Cavs.
Mike C.
Is there any reason the Cavs aren’t taking a look at Brevin Knight? A “true” point guard would let Hughes play 2 and try to get back to his slashing game and let LeBron get the ball in the flow rather then have to initiate the offense.
GO CAVS!
Mike T.
i watched every summer league game and windhorst’s assessment of brown is incorrect. the point that he, and i guess the “scouts” he talked to missed was that shannon has something no other current cav guard has and that is a MID-RANGE game. if you watched every minute of every game, you saw that shannon is able to get free and get very comfortable looks at the bucket from 15-17 ft. and in the last summer league game he made quite a few of those, including a nice bank shot.
his passing at times was spectacular. he feed big men for dunks or uncontested lay-ups on six separate occasions in 3 games alone.
and to, pardon the pun, dismiss so cavalierly his athleticism is to almost miss the point entirely. the main reason he was so high on so many draft boards when he came out was that he has freakish ability, esp. for a man his size.
if the cavs groom him correctly he can become an off-the-bench scorer the cavs sorely need. think of him like a vinne johnson-type only he can jump out of the gym.
as for the rest of the summer league roster, i think windhorst was quite amiss in not recognizing the VAST improvements made by dwayne jones. i wondered all year why the cavs kept him on the roster and i think i saw why this summer. he is only 24 and the old axiom of big men taking longer to develop CLEARLY applies to him. he displayed athleticism we didn’t see at all last year. he got his hand on nearly every rebound, he blocked shots and dunked the ball like a madman. he is still foul prone but i can see that the cavs are clearly grooming him for the varejo spot, whether andy gets traded or drew gets traded, jones then slides into that energy big man off the bench who can rebound and defend.
darius rice could be a donyell replacement as they are the same exact player. but he didn’t shoot the lights out like he needed to in summer league, so i doubt he makes the team. invite to camp, maybe. same with dijon thompson. camp invite.
the genius has…spoken!
DaveR, you sure you want Jasikevicius playing the point instead of Larry (referencing Windhorst’s W-L record above)???
While we don’t have a “true” PG… at least we had the foresight to pass on guys like Marco Jaric and Jasikevicius… although Damon Jones was the eventual choice.
DJ’s terrible, but there’s a chance we don’t beat the Wiz in last year’s playoffs without him.
Agreed! With trades it’s about matching salaries and interest with long term plans.
When review my list, players such as Jack, West, Udrich & Head can be traded for the Wesley contract of $1.8M which is only truly worth $250k.
The Cavs also hold a $2.2M trade exception (Calderon), with both of these options the other team would receive Salary Cap relief. Plus, you can always package players.
And YES, I’d take Jasikevicius over Hughes strictly on shooting ability and PG skills, BUT I’ll admit bias against Hughes!
I’d trade Cap Relief for a true PG.
With Jack as my Prime Target!!!
I’d love to see the Cavs make a deal of some kind right now. However, I’m starting to think they’re doing the right thing by standing pat.
By leaving the roster as is, I think they’re certainly weakening their chances to win a championship this season. However, if you look at 2008/09, the future looks a little brighter.
After next season, Newble’s contract will be off the books. Jones, Marshall, and Snow will all have soon-to-be-expiring contracts, making them much more tradeable. The team will also have a draft pick to deal with.
If the team does nothing this year, they’ll be in a much better position to make a deal for an impact player after the season.
Maybe Ferry’s looked into his crystal ball and sees this as a much more appealing future than one with Mike Bibby’s contract clogging up the roster.
Or maybe I’m just drunk.
Mike T., aside from the fact that Brevin Knight is a crappy retread that will soon be joining his eighth team, he makes Larry Hughes and his arm pantyhose seem durable. Knight is one of those guys that will drop a 30 pound dumbbell on his foot and be out for two to three months, and then follow it up with an appendectomy, a sprained ankle and a tick bite containing Lyme disease.
How can fans overlook Hughes’ near-max contract? Don’t we evaluate a player’s production with how much he makes? That’s what we do in the real business world and it’s called productivity. Larry Hughes is a good NBA player who can play defense and is versatile. But that makes him a $6-7 million per year player, not a $12-14 million per year player. So the Cavs are essentially paying double for Hughes’ production. His contract hampers the Cavs ability to make any moves to improve the team this offseason. No team wants to trade for Hughes or any other huge contract (like Z’s). Z’s another case of an overpaid player. He’s one of the better centers in the NBA, but does his stats justify his $10 million+ salary when he only plays 30 minutes or less per game? And he’s a defensive liability against smaller, quicker centers.
Other than Lebron and a few others, the Cavs are a group of overpaid players. I believe GM Danny Ferry got pressured into making some questionable moves because of the “Win Now” mantra with Lebron’s rookie contract running out in the 2005-2006 season. Signing Hughes and Damon Jones has been Ferry’s worst signings. So right now, other Eastern teams are improving but the Cavs have to sit still. CNNSI.com doesn’t rank Ferry 20th out of 30 GM’s for nothing…
With all that, I hope Ferry can stay patient and trade players that don’t fit the Cavs system (like Damon Jones). I hope he doesn’t get pushed around by Dan Fegan (Varajeo’s agent), and can keep Varajeo at a reasonable price like Drew Gooden. Lastly, I hope he can pick up some inexpensive players who can fit a role on the Cavs. Golden State was great at doing this last season, picking up Matt Barnes and Kelenna Azubuike.
DId you watch the same summer games I did? Dwayne Jones dunked because that’s all he could do. If you asked hom to move more than a foot with the ball, he turned it over. He also had 26 fouls in five games. Yes, he can rebound, he’s got a great ability to rebound. But dunking over undersized summer scrubs (like, say, Darius Rice and Kevin Pittsnoggle clones on the other teams) doesn’t make me think he’s going to have a spot in the rotation.
Shannon Brown from mid-range? Well, OK. He shot 39 percent overall. He also went 1-of-11 on 3s. (I guess they didn’t find a way to go in, did they?). So he shot like 42 percent on everything else including his dunks. Wow, that’s awesome…for Larry Hughes. Six great passes, huh? That’s wonderful. He had 16 assists and 24 turnovers. Hell, the Cavs ought to call San Antonio and offer him for Tony Parker with as high as his stock is right now.
The Cavs already have a point guard… with a bright future. Daniel Gibson will be running the “1″ next season, hughes at the 2 (unless we can unload him), Bron Bron, Gooden, Z… with a bench consisting of Snow, Brown, Pavlovic, Varejao, and Marshall… ala last season. I can live with that if Ferry cleans house in 08-09 (see above). Dwayne and Damon Jones will be waving towels when they arent on the injured list with “flu-like symptoms”, which translates into “enormous deficiencies in their games”.
I still say I’d part with Gooden, Hughes, Pavlovic, Wesley’s expiring deal and a future #1 for Garnett. No way does Garnett go back to Minnesota after all the rumors and bad blood this summer. If he does, he’ll be in a very bad mood for another year, opt out afterwards, and sign with the Lakers. If Mchale had any sense (and I’m not sure he does, mind you), he’d get whatever he could now and send him to the Eastern Conference, before that scenario plays out.
I dont want Bibby’s corpse on this team, what in the world is a “Beno Udrih” anyway?, and Brevin Knight is laughable. Gibson and Hughes rotating at point is fine by me. It’s just a shame we didnt swing in and pick up Andre Miller when we had the chance, before Philly knew what they had.
I enjoyed this paragraph from Bill Simmons’ most recent ESPN Magazine column:
“Still, Summer League worked for those dopey idiosyncracies that only NBA junkies enjoy, all of which were on display in Vegas last weekend. Like seeing random blasts from the past (”Good god, it’s Toby Bailey! He’s alive!”) or GMs like Danny Ferry intently scouting games and contemplating their next atrocious moves. Watching fringe guys like Guillermo Diaz gunning for their own stats or young vets like Gerald Green mailing it in because they mistakenly (and comically) believe they’re better than everyone else. Overhearing two fans behind me seriously argue about Atlanta’s available cap space. Seeing Awvee Storey, the disgraced NBDL player who nearly punched a teammate into a coma, notice his name was misspelled on his Bucks jersey, then wondering if the equipment manager was crumpled in a bloody heap somewhere.”
The sports guy’s funny, and yes, Ferry has a lot to prove as a GM, but if you guys were the GM of the Cavs this offseason, name someone you’d bring in here. I’d like to hear it. And I’ll even waive the salary cap. Forget the Cavs’ financial situation and give me one free agent you would’ve signed this offseason. Give me a feasable trade you’d make. Short of ripping someone off in a trade, what should Ferry do??
Bottom Line: It’s not Ferry’s fault that there are no good moves to make. It’s not his fault that the only decent name out there, Rashard Lewis, went for 120-something million dollars. The guy is so desperate to make something happen, he’s trying to trade for Mike FREAKING Bibby, and probably only because he’s being crucified for not trying to improve a team that made the NBA FINALS last season. It CERTAINLY isnt his fault that Paul Silas and Jim Paxson were so incredibly stupid, they gave up a FIRST ROUNDER for Jiri Welsch. Call em excuses, I dont care. This ridiculous criticism is the reason GM’s in this town are afraid to make a move. We’re like a bunch of idiot Boston fans, with less money to work with. Get off Ferry until he actually screws something up. We competed for a championship last season, REMEMBER!!!?? Does ANYONE remember that playoff run?
Actually, it is Ferry’s fault there are no good moves to make. Who offered those ridiculous four and five-year contracts two summers ago, Donald Trump? That’s the reason there are no good moves to make.
Paxson’s first-round pick? It was 24th, kind of low, but the fact is that’s the exact same draft pick they could have had anyway. The Suns had acquired it in a trade with the Celtics, and Steve Kerr was giving it away. So Cleveland could have gotten it right back. But Ferry was too busy on his fishing boat to make a phone call. Check any kosher bakery, lox is around $30 a pound. Would you rather have a $30 lox or a first-round pick? I think Ferry made the right call.
Considering how badly he’s screwed with the roster, why isn’t he giving away every penny that’s available for Steve Francis before the Rockets sign him? Can BW please explain this?
Not Ferry’s fault? Was it some other ghostly pale, tall, beautifully manicured, boatshoe-wearing GM who shackled our salary cap with the likes of Hughes, Jones, Marshall, and Z? Paxson actually brought in Gooden and Sasha. The boatshoes resume basically consists of re-signing Lebron (big deal, no one else could have offered that money) and drafting Gibson (second round flyer that worked out). And to think GM’s are too timid to make moves because of the “ridiculous criticism” that they get from fans posting on an Akron Beacon Journal sports blog is simply too laughable to even consider. Even boatshoes isn’t that callow and meek, right? I hope not.
Josh, Daniel Gibson is not a point guard. He’s short and that’s about it.
Hey “Dude,” if you actually watched the summer league games like you claimed you would realize ALL foul and turnover numbers were inflated because of across-the-board horrible officiating. You had minor-league ( NBDL ) refs who ROUTINELY made bad call after bad call. Brown was the victim of at least 5 rotten”charge” calls alone!
As for Jones, did you actually read what I wrote? I said Jones is being groomed for the Varejao role. what does Varejao do? Rebound and defend! What does Jones do? Rebound and defend! Why does the genius bother with simple minds like yours? You can’t even read correctly…
As for you Ferry bashers, how many NBA finals has Paxson lead the Bulls to? I’m astounded by the level of envy you Clevelanders have for other franchise’s people! And then to have this mental midget Alan T. wonder why the Cavs aren’t going after Stevie Francis! bwahahaha! Is he serious? Yeah, cast-offs from the KNICKS are just what the Cavs need to win it all! A ball-hoggin’, shoot-first, malcontent “point guard!” bwahahha!
You people are the most non-serious basketball fans i have ever encountered. You seem to be permanently shackled to your cleveland-loser town status and are completely incapable of seeing the forest for the trees. Your team went to the finals! Your rivals in the East have done nothing to really improve themselves. In fact, Detroit and Miami are a year older and no better. Your only significant threat might be Toronto but i think James trumps Bosh quite easily at the end of the day. What the hell are you whining so much for??
And “JBF,” John Paxson and B.J. Armstong were not “point guards” either. How’d they do? Don’t you see that with James on your team you don’t need a tradtional PG, just like Jordan did not need one either? I also find it more than funny that none of your basketball experts made note of Windhorst’s actual FACTS about Hughes at the point. The numbers are right there, yet most of you choose to ignore those cold, hard numbers to tilt at whatever windmill you like. Beyond pathetic…
The Genius has…spoken!
The Cavs are doomed and have been since James was drafted. Instead of building the team for the long run like the bulls have done, the Cavs brought in garbage player after garbage player in an insane attempt to make the playoffs immediately. Then they hired an AAU coach who can barely coach one side of the floor. And forget about player developement. James has been in the league four years and still can’t shoot,play in the post or defend. But then again in order to play in the post a team needs a point guard, a position the Cavs have no inclination to truly fill. Boobie? Larry Hughes? How in the world can a team be serious about winning a championship with 3rd rate talent? The morons running this team were making trades when they should have been going back into the draft. The worst thing that could have happened to Lebron was to be drafted by the Cavaliers.
“Genius,” that’s why Francis is so attractive, that “malcontent” rep. He got that huge contract based on his talent. Kinda too huge, but few guys are really worth every penny of those big fat NBA contracts. When Portland bought out his contract, that meant he can now accept a much smaller contract, since he already got his money. Like when Alonzo Mourning screwed the Nets and the Raptors. Like Mourning wasn’t a “malcontent?” He could then afford to sign with the Heat for comparatively nothing, since he already received his money.
I mean, let’s be serious. Francis has a ton of real proven talent, not that “potential upside” nonsense that Cavs fans are always prone to talking about. Francis has a lot of professional experience playing point guard. From 2002-2004, he was on NBA all-star teams. He can still put up big numbers. Who cares if he’s a “shoot first” guy? Like Gibson and Hughes aren’t? They’re not even point guards in the first place. Like Mike Bibby isn’t a “shoot first” guy?
For God’s sakes, our general manager gave out outrageous contracts to average guys like they were free samples at Kroger. O.K., that’s done. Water under the bridge, there is nothing that can be done about it now. For fans it’s incredibly frustrating, but what’s happened happened. But Steve Blake just signed for two years with an option for a third year, and for far less than the midlevel exception. Despite Ferry’s contracts and zero cap space, every team still has a midlevel exception. Given the fact the Akron Beacon Journal’s rumor mill isn’t saying that Ferry is beating down the door of Francis’ agent, then there should no longer any dispute that Ferry is not on the bottom rung with Kevin McHale, Otis Smith, Chris Wallace and all the other guys whose moves just never seem to make any coherent sense.
I still want to read those “weird and wild” stories that BW says he won’t write. I know what happens in Vegas stays in Vegas, but this should be an exception.
Eric,
That was the singular best written piece of basketball satire I’ve read in sometime. Bravo!
Perhaps we have two geniuses on the board now? The mind boggles…
The Genius has…spoken!
Okay, a few clarifications:
1. It was not our “foresight” that led Jasekevicius to sign with Indiana. The Cavs made him an offer, and he chose to go to Indiana because at the time he thought they were closer to a title. He soon regretted his decision, but we likely dodged a bullet there anyway. He is not the answer.
2. Jarrett Jack is going nowhere. He is Portland’s starting PG and a guy they see in their long-term future. Forget about him.
3. Why hasn’t Ferry considered Brevin Knight? Because we already have a PG with a 3-foot shooting range on the roster.
4. It is not really Ferry’s “fault” that the Cavs are in their current salary cap situation. Bear in mind, my shortsighted friends, that at the time he signed Hughes, Marshall, and Jones, Danny (just like the rest of us) rightfully believed that he had to make some dramatic signings to keep LBJ happy and in Cleveland. He signed the best available players in that year’s FA class for the amount of money the market required him to offer. He was stuck that summer, and like it or not, he had no choice but to sign FAs to appease LBJ. Unfortunately, Michael Redd was not among them, but it was a do-or-die offseason, and signing Hughes did improve the team– just not as much as you would like from a guy making his money.
GO CAVS
Alan T., I will grant you that Bibby is a shoot first PG as well. His assist totals for his 3 best years are actually less than Francis’ best 3 years.
However, Bibby has played 80 or more games 7 out his 9 seasons while Francis while has done that exactly TWICE in his 9 seasons.
So, considering that a major ( and I will admit, valid ) criticism of Hughes is that he is frequently injured, well, the same could most certainly be said of Francis. So, I fail to see how that would be a major upgrade of any sort esp. with all the risks he brings. Better to have a younger player like Gibson continue to have playing time.
Another example of winning without a “true” point guard would, of course , be the Celtics of the 80’s with Dennis Johnson ( who was a SG like Hughes earlier in his career ) as the de facto PG. History is clear here, folks. Winning a title without a classic PG has been done on numerous occasions and I see of no legitimate reason why it can’t be done again.
The Genius has…spoken!
ATB, surely you have been sent from up on high to provide some much needed clarity of thought to this board. Your points are all beyond valid.
Can the rest of you not see that your are all suffering from a sad case of “grass is greener” syndrome? It’s symptoms include thinking that every potential FA is the greatest thing since sliced bread. Every back-up on a losing team seems like a sure-fire All-Star.
This is fool’s gold, people.
The Genius has…spoken!
ATB, your fourth paragraph would have some validity if James didn’t turn right around and screw Ferry with a puny one-year extension to his commitment. Obviously Ferry thought his moves would get James to sign a max deal through 2013. Poker is more than just luck, so yes, it is Ferry’s fault.
On another subject, there seems to be San Antonio envy, like they’re geniuses. O.K., fine, let’s assume this is true, the front office people in San Antonio are geniuses. They already knew that Greek stiff they got from Houston was planning on going back to Europe, and they’d receive nothing but salary relief in exchange for Luis Scola. But if Luis Scola has so much NBA-level talent, it seems to me that San Antonio would want value for value, wouldn’t they? But there Ferry is, supposedly doing cartwheels for this guy. What does he see in him that the geniuses at San Antonio didn’t? I don’t get it.
Good point about the Celtics winning with Dennis Johnson at point guard. It worked because they had Bird, who gave them unusual and exceptional passing ability from the small forward spot — sound relevant to the Cleveland situation? With LeBron on the floor, the Cavs just need a point guard who can give them SOMETHING – they can afford to carry a specialist (be it offensive or defensive). What the Cavs need most is a reliable second scorer. Hughes hasn’t been the guy. I don’t know how he’d handle it, but I’d like to see the Cavs experiment with Hughes as the sixth man. There would still be enough offense on the court at the start of the game with Hughes on the bench. He could come in late in the first quarter around the time LeBron sits. That would give him the room and freedom to have the ball in his hands a lot, which helps his game, but doesn’t work well when he’s on the court with LeBron. Plus, Hughes would be playing against a lot of second teamers at that point, which would help his offense. For the second half, it would be up to Matchup Maven Mike Brown to come up with the best 5 for the situation.
For those of you who believe Ferry *had* to make all those free agent signings to keep Lebron, who’s kidding who here really. Yes, he had plenty of salary cap room to work with. But there is a difference between signing people just because you have the room and signing people based on scouting, talent, and research. Back then, it’s as if Ferry and the hierarchy said, ok, we failed to get Ray Allen, failed to land Michael Redd – but hey look, there’s Donyell Marshall and he can shoot 3’s – lets give him 8 mill. Oh there’s Damon Jones and he can shoot 3’s, didn’t he help the heat win a few – lets throw millions at him too. Hey there’s Larry Hughes – we still have $15 million left – ok he gets it and lets call it a successful offseason.
I do think he good have made better signings, I do think he could have worked better, salary-cap friendly deals. I don’t blame him for getting who he did but it is his fault for the amounts of money he threw at them and for the years he gave them. And that is what is hampering this team in this offseason. He needs to be smarter at this and look to the future for possible impacts. Not just add and subtract deals based on what room is available in a given year.
I don’t have that big an issue with our roster as it currently holds. I just wish we had the ability to make a move that would be considered a definite upgrade rather than all these potential possibilites that keep coming up. Trading Drew Gooden without having another rebounder/big man to take his place is a huge mistake in my opinion. Drew also has one of the best contracts on this team and you don’t trade him just because he is your one best tradeable commodity.
Another thing, those of you saying the East teams didn’t upgrade themselves and point to Detroit and Miami. Detroit seemed to have stayed status quo other than draft picks and they will still be tough. Miami didn’t have Shaq most of the 1st half and Wade most, if not all the 2nd half. Didn’t the Cavs lose to the Heat twice without Wade? If they have both health, they will be tough. Washington likewise will be tough with a healthy Arenas. I like the Cavs as they are, I think they will be able to make another run to the Eastern Conference Championship with another year’s experience. But it won’t be as easy as it was this year, especially without a little more improvement in the current roster and we need to stop discounting teams that didn’t make it last year based on 1-2 easily correctable factors. And one more thing, being impressed with summer league play is no different than preseason football when 2-3 guys always seem to be on the verge of making it big only to get cut on the last day or not show up in a regular season game at all.
It’s very true that you don’t need a “true” point guard to win championships. In fact, most championships in my memory were won with guys like Paxson, Armstrong, Kenny Smith, Dennis Johnson and Ron Harper playing that role. Billups and Parker were considered “shoot first” guys until their teams won, while Jason Kidd, John Stockton and Steve Nash have never won the top prize.
It’s also very true that Ferry didn’t have to sign all those bums for big money two summers ago. It’s his job to forecast into the future and sign the best players for the long term. It’s also false to keep stating that “everyone” thought they were good moves. The limitations of Jones and Marshall were well known back then, and Hughes has always been thought of as a injury-risk pantywaist.
I know Tucker at least has been railing against those moves since the beginning.
dear mr. “d.,”
You seem to be playing the middle man of reason role. You do it quite effectively. However, there is little dispute that the consensus of those who are paid to write about basketball ( from here forth known as “everyone” ) was that ferry made very good moves in that off-season. In fact, the only quibbles, as I recall, were with Ilgauskas’ contract length. Besides that, most thought Hughes would be nice compliment to James and that Jones and Marshall ( who just that previous season had torched the Cavs for, i believe, 8 3’s in one contest ) were EXACTLY the kind of long-range shooters the Cavs needed. In Jones’ case, he was play-off tested ( recall that he had played quite well in Miami’s play-off run. In point of fact, in Miami’s 15 playoff games that year, he avg. 12 points and 4 assists a game while shooting 48% from the field and 43% from the 3-point line. Hardly numbers to sneeze at, wouldn’t one agree? ) and could provide that kind of veteran leadership for a team who hadn’t appeared in the playoffs in over a decade.
Now, I know I’m a genius, but it surely doesn’t take one to see that at the time, those signings were RIGHTLY considered quite sound by Ferry? “Revisionist history” is a must. It’s how we move past the frequently wrong first draft of history. But your attempts at it in this instance are sadly, off by not a little bit.
The Genius has…spoken!
The Hughes signing was not universally applauded. http://www.hoopshype.com/columns/hughes_johnson.htm Not surprising, when the Cavs as much as admitted that he was option number 3 or 4 (behind Ray Allen, Redd, and Joe Johnson.) Even the local media expressed some concern regarding his durability, RIGHTLY so, given that he averaged about 60 games a year at that time. Has anyone checked out his career stats? I never realized how pedestrian he’s been. I see maybe one all-star caliber year.
G GS MPG FG% 3P% FT% OFF DEF RPG APG SPG BPG TO PF PPG
98-99 50 1 19.8 0.411 0.154 0.709 1.7 2.1 3.8 1.5 0.9 0.3 1.36 1.90 9.1
99-00 50 5 20.4 0.416 0.216 0.746 1.0 2.1 3.2 1.5 1.1 0.2 1.90 1.90 10.0
99-00 32 32 40.8 0.389 0.243 0.736 1.9 4.0 5.9 4.1 1.9 0.5 3.13 3.00 22.7
00-01 50 45 36.9 0.383 0.187 0.766 1.5 4.0 5.5 4.5 1.9 0.6 3.04 2.90 16.5
01-02 73 56 28.1 0.423 0.194 0.737 1.1 2.2 3.4 4.3 1.5 0.3 2.34 2.10 12.3
02-03 67 56 31.9 0.467 0.367 0.731 1.0 3.6 4.6 3.1 1.3 0.4 2.03 2.20 12.8
03-04 61 61 33.8 0.397 0.341 0.797 1.6 3.8 5.3 2.4 1.6 0.4 2.49 2.40 18.8
04-05 61 61 38.7 0.430 0.282 0.777 1.2 5.0 6.3 4.7 2.9 0.3 2.51 2.80 22.0
05-06 36 31 35.6 0.409 0.368 0.756 0.7 3.8 4.5 3.6 1.5 0.6 2.75 3.30 15.5
06-07 70 68 37.1 0.400 0.333 0.676 0.6 3.2 3.8 3.7 1.3 0.4 2.20 2.30 14.9
I mean, all I basically did was google “Larry Hughes” and about a thousand red flags go up. This was the guy to give a max contract to? It just had to get done that summer? Listen, it doesn’t take a genius to realize that signing Hughes to a Lebron-style contract was a risky, ultimately ludicrous deal.
The genius has…… hopefully stopped using silly signature tag lines like rodney dangerfield or Gary Coleman. What you talking about Willis?
So “doc” ( and i shudder to think with your tiny intellect, what you might be a “doc” of ), you site one article on a website few bother with and that is supposed to refute my argument? funny, i don’t recall defending the Hughes’ signing that much at all in my last post ( in fact, in an earlier post i said that concerns about Hughes propensity for injury were quite valid ). Rather, i pointed to the right, honorable larry d.’s assertion that the Jones and Marshall signings were widely thought of as bad. My factually sound rebuttal stands, unscathed by your feeble attempts.
Oh, and “doc,” the PROPER use of ellipses is three dots in row with no separation. Surely a man as learned as you should know that?
the Genius has…spoken!
The proper use of ellipses varies among professional stylebooks … I believe the Associated Press stylebook (which might be preferred since this is a newspaper-sponsored site) calls for a space, three periods then a space (see above).
As far as the signings, I can’t believe they were universally lauded among national journalists though I’m sure many pundits felt the Cavs would be much improved. I have no doubt the locals approved as they still seem to treat Ferry as The Second Coming.
In any case, both Jones and Marshall had worn out welcomes in multiple cities so the red flags were there, as Doc points out. Even Hughes had been insulted by the paltry initial offer he received from the Wizards after his career year in Washington.
My main point is, who cares what the conventional wisdom was at the time, anyway? Ferry’s job was to find the right talent and sign it to appropriate contracts regardless. He blew 30 million on a bunch of very average role players.
Daniel Gibson is not small… he’s 6′2 (perfect size for a PG), he’s been a point guard all his life (replaced TJ Ford at Texas), he can shoot and he’s lightning quick, and he seems to be a very cerebral player with no fear of driving the ball to the paint. WHAT’S NOT TO LIKE PEOPLE?
Steve Francis? Are you high? At least Bibby had those playoff runs with the Kings. What has Francis done besides whine about not having the ball and get hurt? I’d rather have Damon Jones.
All this team is missing is an enforcer, an Alonzo Mourning type who will defend the paint and intimidate the opposition. We have shooters (Gibson, Pavlovic, and i guess Marshall), we have size up front, we have athletic defenders, and we have a SuperDuper star. All that’s missing is toughness. Etan Thomas, Jason Maxiell, Glen “big baby” Davis, etc would be the missing piece for the Cavs… someone to knock bodies in the paint and pick a fight when necessary. Otherwise, this roster doesnt need a whole lot of overhaul.
It’d be nice to add a complimentary superstar, but that isnt easy to do, despite what some of you jokers may believe. Larry Hughes isnt that piece, but he can be valuable when he’s playing hard and not getting hurt. Would I love to replace Hughes with Tracy Mcgrady? Sure, but that’s next to impossible, so go to battle with the soldiers you have, and we have some pretty good ones.
PS- “Revisionist History” is the subject Cleveland majors in. That’s what fans in this town do best.
All this team is missing is an enforcer? That’s like saying all Mike Vick is missing is a cute little foo-foo bowtie for his rottweiler and he’ll win the Westminster Dog Show next year. What about dudes who can shoot? A coherent offensive philosophy? A superstar who doesnt gack on free throws at the end of games?
The Genius has …… veered precariously close to the rarified pantheon of uber-tools. I can’t wait for the next installment.
If Jarrett Jack is Portland’s PG of the future and their starting PG why did they draft TWO Point Guards (Koponen & Green) in the draft and sign another Steve Blake as a Free Agent when they already have Jack and Sergio Rodriguez on their team?
That’s FOUR Point Guards to go with Brandon Roy who’s usually handling the point chores!
(Jack @ 5.3 Ast / Roy @ 4.0 Ast / Rodriguez @ 3.3 Ast / Blake @ 6.6 Ast)
Jack can be had!
Hey, Genius…
If you’re going to quibble over the use of ellipses, perhaps you should crack a dictionary and look up the meanings of “compliment” versus “complement” and “site” versus “cite.”
Genius, my ass.
Dear Mr. “Hair,”
Why I think I’d rather read your rather ridiculous namesake than be subjected to your own brand of silliness. But just to “set the record straight,” the “site” bit was what’s known as a pun, you gibbon. You see, the person “cited” a web “site” in his rebuttal of my earlier post. surely, even someone as clearly thick as you might’ve gotten that, no?
Oh, and pray tell how does one “crack a dictionary” exactly? Is that something only a less-evolved primate like yourself with your pebble brain but massive hands can accomplish? I am truly in awe of your brute strength. I’m quite sure that the dictionary made you very angry what with all it’s “fancy words” and whatnot! You probably got so frustrated you “cracked” it up “real good,” huh?
As for the “compliment” vs. “complement” business, guilty as charged. But I should hardly think one misplaced letter in a few hundred words is much to get worked up over. Even your hallowed namesake has a proof-reader. Now what he really needs, of course, is an editor. And you need to have your internet access restricted or your medicinal dosage upped. Either should do quite nicely. Now go away, little man, the adults are discussing basketball matters…
I would prefer to talk basketball. “Doc” began this ad hominem attack on me. I insulted no one unprovoked. I would ask that we get back to actually discussing basketball matters, eh?
The Genius has…spoken!
UnGenius…
1. “But I should hardly think one misplaced letter in a few hundred words is much to get worked up over.”
Then why are you getting “worked up” over Doc’s perceived misuse of a set of dots?
2. “I insulted no one unprovoked.”
Right. Except for when you wrote “You people are the most non-serious basketball fans i have ever encountered” and described us as whiners and pathetic.
3. “And you need to have your internet access restricted or your medicinal dosage upped.”
Wow. We are all in awe of your rapier wit. You must write sitcoms for network television.
4. “But just to “set the record straight,” the “site” bit was what’s known as a pun, you gibbon.”
Uh, no. That wasn’t a pun. It’s obvious that you made a mistake because you didn’t really know the difference. That’s fine. I don’t normally pick on people’s misuse of grammar and/or spelling, (such as the dozens in your previous posts).
But if you’re going to refer to yourself as a genius, insult other people’s intellects, and then attack someone for their alleged misuse of an ellipsis, you should expect to be held to a higher standard. I don’t regret exposing you for the charlatan you are.
If you want to talk basketball, sounds good to me. While I agree with your opinion that a “traditional” point guard is not necessary to win a championship, I wholeheartedly disagree with your recollection of “most people” thinking Hughes would be a good complement to Lebron James. A lot of people thought it was a bad signing, based on the amount of money and his long history of injuries.
So doc & TPH, since you guys are fooled by the futal and misguided dystopian vision of one moronic Alan Tucker, it makes perfect sense you would have issues with the genius. Genius, I just wanted to say thank you for bringing some actual insight to this page, and I look forward to the emergence of the anti-Tucker. As for doc’s specialty, Terry Pluto will be writing about it this Sunday in a column titled, “Talkin’ proctology.”