Las Vegas — So the Cavs and Kings are at it again with Mike Bibby. As one of the three writers who was swarming all over UNLV to break this story yesterday, I still am not quite sure why this deal broke down. It certainly looked like it was going to happen when both Damon Jones and Drew Gooden were in the gym with the Kings owners Joe and Gavin Maloof and their entire front office. Let me also pass this along, Danny Ferry really wanted the rights to Luis Scola from the Spurs. I mean really, really, really wanted him. It would also make sense for the Spurs not to hand players to a division rival for nothing but money. Yet, no dice.
The only thing I can think is the Kings just still aren’t happy with the package being offered. The Cavs can offer Gooden and expiring contracts (Ira Newble, David Wesley) or they can offer Gooden and a shooter (Jones) or a combination of both. They are still trying to get a third team involved, just as they were for hours and hours back in February, to sweeten the package. With all this talk, my gut tells me this probably gets done at some point in the future. They aren’t going to give up now.
On the Anderson Varejao front, one league executive told me yesterday: “This is going to be one to watch.” He meant for entertainment value, in a sick, detatched way. Andy’s agent, Dan Fegan, is looking for the big score. I’m talking about something like $9-$10 million a year. I believe the Cavs are offering something much closer to $6 million a year. You don’t have to be a math major to know that is a wide gap. The Cavs will not pay it and, because Varejao is restricted and no teams who want Varejao have cap space left, they will not have to pay it. They do not have to do a sign-and-trade for it if they don’t feel like it, either. Here’s the thing, though, Fegan does not like to compromise. He may rather have Andy play out a one-year qualifying offer and become unrestricted next summer.
Now, this doesn’t make a whole lot of sense to me. First off, because’s a second round pick, his qualifying offer is only $1.3 million. Sasha Pavlovic’s, for example, is around $4 million. That means Andy potentially would be leaving $5 million on the table just this season alone. This is a guy who has made just $2.6 million over the last three years combined. He may never make up that money. Second, next summer the free agent market is deeper and there are no teams that will have a bunch of money. So if he leaves the Cavs, it very likely would be just for the mid-level exception, which will be around $5.5 million next year. Does that make sense? No, but it does make a point, which is what Fegan might want to do.
Here’s something you need to keep in mind that no one is talking about. Andy really, really wants to play for Brazil in next month’s FIBA Americas Tournament. He loves playing for the national team and the Brazilians are fighting for one of the two spots in the Olympics next year. With the Americans and Argentines there, they need their best players. Andy can’t risk playing without a contract, remember he blew out his shoulder playing for the national team two years ago. I have not spoken to Andy since the season ended, so maybe his feelings have changed. But he’s always expressed to me how he wants to make the basketball team as popular as a the national soccer team, when the whole country shuts down to watch. That is probably unrealistic, but Andy always sounded passionate about it. Anyway, that means the contract has to get done in the next few weeks if he wants to play. We’ll see…
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I hope the Cavs don’t bid against themselves on this one like the Magic did for Lewis. I know they don’t want an unhappy player but where exactly can he go for more than 5-6 a yr with Memphis off the table? Make the market offer for a role player with his skills and move on.
I don’t like the sounds of Varejao as a starter. He’s got energy and can rebound, which makes him a perfect 6th man. He can’t score at all though, so how could he start at 4? Godden is nothing amazing but at least he can score.
I don’t think you should ever trade a big man for little man. Good big men are hard to come by. Gooden averages nearly a double/double. That is hard to replace. With Gooden gone, the Cavs are in deep trouble, if one of their big men are injured. And last but not least, I don’t think that Bibby or any other guard is going to take over control of the ball in Coach Brown’s offense from “Point” forward LeBron.
Starting five, Z, lebron, Sasha, Hughes, Bibby. Boobie, Verejoa, Dwayne Jones and Brown off the bench, Enough said. Championship!!!
larry hughes sucks… and the thought of lebron at the 4 makes me sick
Well, were stuck with larry and with paying him 14 mil a year, he’s going to start. As for lebron playing the four, he can cover all fours and they would have a hell of time covering him and If you were a smart basketball fan you would know that lebron is much better on the post
Is Mike Bibby that much of a playmaker? Yes he can score some points, but he doesn’t play any defense. How is he going to fit on a Mike Brown team if he’s getting beat on the Defensive end? And we don’t even have Varajeo yet but we’re going to give up Gooden? So basically, we’re splitting front court minutes between Z, Marshall, and Varajeo? LeBron is not a 4. I just don’t like the idea of Gooden for Bibby. Gooden is young, and if we ran some damn plays for him once in a while he could score 17 a game too. He’s the best rebounder on our team. We win games because of Defense and rebounding. Now we’re going to lose in both categories for an aging shooter who’s losing his legs fast and can’t keep guys in front of him. And this is going to severly limit Shannon Brown’s minutes – BAD IDEA.
“2006-07 outlook: Gooden signed a three-year deal for $23 million to stay with Cleveland, a fair valuation considering his production the past two seasons. He projects as the Cavs’ starting power forward this season, and Cleveland will hope that as the 25-year-old matures his mental focus will improve and allow the team to take full advantage of his otherwise impressive skills.
It’s easier to say this from a distance, but if his mistakes don’t go away, there’s a danger in the Cavs getting too bent out of shape about it. Power forwards who can score and rebound like this don’t grow on trees, and while Gooden’s lapses can be incredibly frustrating, in the grand scheme of things I’m not sure they cost the Cavs as much as they might think. The worst thing to do would be for Cleveland to throw up its hands and trade him for pennies on the dollar.”
Pennies on the dollar is Mike Bibby. I can’t even BELIEVE the Kings aren’t sure about this deal. Hopefully they don’t pull the trigger for our sake.
Tom, I couldn’t agree more.
Yeah, I’m not sure Bibby is the answer – at least not at the price of Drew. Bibby averaged 17 pts last year (about his career average) but only shot 40% (hello Larry Hughes part deux) and only 4.7 assists. Career averages of 16 pts, 6 assists and 44% aren’t a whole lot better. I’m not saying I wouldn’t be glad to have him or that getting the offense started through someone other than LeBron wouldn’t be great, but Drew is a big price to pay. Obviously you keep Andy if you let Drew go, but while Andy is a great backup big man and may one day be the replacement to Z, he sure doesn’t look ready to start to me.
quote: gocavs Says:
July 13th, 2007 at 2:58 pm
“Starting five, Z, lebron, Sasha, Hughes, Bibby. Boobie, Verejoa, Dwayne Jones and Brown off the bench, Enough said. Championship!!!”
-ILMAO!!!!!
In order to get an important piece, sometimes you have to give up one. I’m a Drew Gooden fan, but his inconsistentency at the 4 spot can cause us some problems down the line. I think a solid PG who can shooot and run the floor would help us out. Plus, Bibby has never been scared to take the big shot and hit the open shot. Plus If we can get rid of Damon Jones, its worth it to have him off the roster. Regardless if we kept Drew or not, we would still need to sign an atletic big man who can finish around the basket.
Bibby is an excellent playmaker. His assists have decreased over the last couple years as he became more of the focal point in Sacramento’s offense- and his scoring went up accordingly. He plays solid if unspectacular defense. He struggled with a wrist injury last year that effected his shooting – but check his career numbers, he has always shot for a decent percentage for someone that takes as many threes as he does. Comparing him to Hughes is completely unreasonable. Bibby’s career three point percentage (.371) is almost a hundred points higher than Larry’s(.291), and good enough to put him in the top hundred all time. Bibby almost shoots threes like Hughes shoots from the field (.413) (Bibby .441 for his career). And he is a very good rebounder for a point guard.
I like Drew Gooden, and I think he will continue to have a nice career, but let’s face it, he’s not a Hall of Fame player or even an All-Star. He’s a good shooter, and works the glass well, but he can be foul prone, sometimes gets confused on defense and doesn’t intimidate any one. He’s an above average power forward, maybe in the top fifteen but definitely not the top ten at his position in the NBA.
You don’t like to trade big for small, but there is absolutely no question that the Cavs get the more talented player. By any stretch, Bibby is a top ten point guard, even coming from an off year.
Someone mentioned Bibby’s age. When the season starts, he’ll be 29. Gooden will be 26.
As far as Shannon Brown losing minutes because of Bibby, that’s not really likely, because Brown simply can’t play point guard. The Cavs are in big, big trouble if he ends up there at all. He still plays out of control at times, but what really limits him is that his ball handling is very inconsistent and does not hold up under pressure. I like him very much as an explosive slasher/scorer/defender but watching him play point yesterday in the Summer League game against Memphis was brutal.
Let’s not get too carried away. If the deal is Gooden and Damon Jones for Bibby, the Cavs should do it in a heartbeat.
Chuck:
.470 .450 .443 .432 .404
That’s the sign of a guy that relies on a jumper losing his legs.
And no, he doesn’t play good defense at all. He’s going to be taking minutes away from Shannon Brown because Boobie is going to be getting plenty of minutes. You know Eric snow is going to come in off the bench for 5-10 minutes a night and Hughes is going to play. That leaves Shannon Brown out. He’s an explosive athlete who has good form on his jumper. If he can develop confidence and start knocking down jumpers he will be handful. I’ve watched him in the summer league too. He hasn’t looked bad. What I’ve noticed is that no one can stay in front of him when he gets his mind set on getting to the rim.
I guarantee if the deal goes through we will all regret it later. Gooden is going to be hitting his prime in the next 2 to 3 years. Bibby is already past his.
Right now Gooden has a higher Player Efficiency Ranking than Bibby.
I just don’t see Bibby having some sort of “comeback” year.
I would actually argue that the occasional Gooden blunder isn’t nearly as costly as the one enormous one that Varejao had. Personally I am by no means a Bibby fan. He’s not really a distributor. He’s more like a shooting guard than a point guard and he just flat refuses to play defense. The only good thing I really can think of is that his contract is only 2 years long (okay, and he’s an okay shooter). He might help the team a little, but how much will not having Gooden on the floor to get the tough rebounds hurt? While Varejao is a good rebounder on the offensive boards. He’s not near Gooden’s defensive rebounding.
And Varejao is looking for a 9 million/yr contract. Are you kidding me? Just because Memphis was trying to make him feel good doesn’t mean that’s what he’s going to be able to get. I just haven’t seen many players play for the QO and then make more money the next year.
TheOUTLAW… does this look like a player who “flat refuses to play defense” … ?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9_ogtc-rnd8
Also — Its not like the Frontcourt would just be Andy, Z, and Donyell …
It’s obvious Ferry wants another Big in the Rotation who is a solid rebounder and someone who can get Garbage points like gooden. Why do you think we are trying to get a Third team involved??? To make the deal better for both the cavs and sacramento.
Becuase right now — Gooden, Damon, and Ira equals the same amount as Bibbys contract.
also one more thing to throw out…
TheOUTLAW .. you say andy isnt a good defensive rebounder?
his PER-48 is 8.8 defensive rebounds
Goodens is 9.0 defensive rebounds
not much of a diff…
If the original 3-way trade involved getting a young center back, that would have helped alleviate some of the loss of Gooden. And while Gooden is a better scorer than Varejao, Mike Brown doesn’t put Gooden in a position to score, only to rebound and play defense. If Varejao were to play starter’s minutes, I’d have to believe that he’d put up equal or better numbers on the boards than Gooden.
Well those couple games andy started for Z … andy was getting aruond 13 boards a game. He even got 16 boards one game only playing 35 minutes.
Is Bibby that much of a better option than Steve Francis? How come Miami is able to play in the Mo Williams sweepstakes, while the Cavs are not? Where on earth will Ferry get another big man at this point?
“Where on earth will Ferry get another big man at this point?”
Mikki Moore
Blatche
Mutombo
Mihm
Ely
Jamal Magloire
Udoka
Dale Davis
Joe Smith
Bibby is Steve Francis with a designer label. Or at least a designer contract. With Francis pocketing all that buyout cash, he’d clearly take the midlevel exception. Or even less than that, depending upon how many teams want to bid for him. But really, why would Francis want to come to Cleveland? Or why would any quality free agent, for that matter? Ferry is only going to get a guy through a trade.
Where on earth will Ferry get another big man? Well, didn’t you read, Larry? Ferry was hot on the Luis Scola sweepstakes trail. Almost had him. *That* close. Not only is he supposedly 6′9″ tall, but his ABC sitcom was also very funny. I was really sorry to see it cancelled.
By the way, just a helpful suggestion for our blog host: In light of the fact you “broke the story” that Memphis had offered Varejao a big fat Rosie O’Donnell-sized deal, perhaps it may be a wee premature to toot your own horn about “breaking” another story so soon after “breaking” your last story. If you keep “breaking” stories like you “broke” the Varejao story, it won’t be long before you’ll be taking all the credit for “breaking” this story:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/olmedia/1010000/images/_1013167_truman_corbis300.jpg
Player efficiency rating? Who gives a crap. Another dopey stat for Chinese abacus lovers. Although, I did find it interesting that last season Bibby was rated 85th in the league, and that Gooden was there right behind him biting on his tail at 87th in the league. Ooh, a battle of efficient titans. Get ‘em while they’re hot, Ferry.
Doc, please don’t ever apologize to the narcissistic Alan Tucker! At least your posts have humor and insight, while Tucker has pervaded this blog with nothing but cynicism and stupidity. I can’t wait for the Cavs to pull off an upset next year so that Alan can disappear into the void of his Piglet shower curtain only to return and act as if nothing happened later on. I wish we could trade Alan Tucker for anything, even a pop-up ad.
Is the great Oscar Schmidt (http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/40280000/jpg/_40280267_schmidt270.jpg) still firing up threes for the Brazilian nationals? Maybe we need to look into his player efficiency rating. And how did “schmidt” become a brazilian surname? Was he some sort of exiled ex-nazi offspring?
BRIAN IM GOING INSANE HERE.. THESE MIND GAMES ARE KILLIN ME AND I FEEL LIKE I DONT KNOW WHATS GOING ON!
DO YOU?
I DONT THINK YOU DO!
Sacramento JUST signed Mikki Moore to a Contract? WHAT THE HELL! Does Sacramento still want Drew or are they now gonna start asking for Sasha which is why Posey said today that Cleveland is one of his choices (meaning I think we offerd him a contract since he got it down to 4 teams –now three since N/O signed Mo Pete)
Parker Posey is signing with the Cavs? Cool. You have to admire an actress that invests so much of her work in independent films. Maybe Ferry isn’t so dumb after all.
Actually, I’ve always wondered that about Oscar Schmidt. Seriously. If anybody knows how a guy that played basketball in Brazil got the same name as an Auschwitz guard, please post the answer. It’s not like the guy playing for Denver is named “Nene Schultz.”
JoeHoops, please come back!!
Tom: there’s no denying Bibby had an off year shooting the ball – he played through a wrist injury all season. But his overall decline in shooting percentage the last few years is indicative of shooting more threes – more than double than he did earlier in his career. This is perfectly acceptable, since he shoots them at a high percentage. There isn’t any reason to think his legs are going – he’s been extremely durable through his entire career. And I stick by my assessment that he is an average defender.
It doesn’t look like Gooden would be involved in a trade now, since the Kings just signed Moore.
As far as Shannon Brown losing minutes, there is simply no reason to this this has an impact. Shannon Brown does not play point guard. He’s an aggressive scorer and a good defender, but he turns the ball over. Constantly. Tom, you said you’ve seen the Summer League games – have you seen him shoot 15-48 with 17 turnovers in three of the games? He was really awesome in the other. His entry passes leave a lot to be desired. My point is that it’s not like Mike Brown is going to let him learn on the job. Brown’s competition would be with Hughes and Pavlovic. Even without Bibby, Gibson and Snow would see all the minutes at the point (depending on injury, and even if one of those guys gets hurt, the Cavs are likely to put Hughes back at point – fans forget that they won 13 of 14 with him at point until the Detroit series, but I don’t think Mike Brown does). Shannon will probably see 15 minutes a game, if he’s lucky – unless the Cavs do not re-sign Pavlovic, or Sasha goes in a trade.
As far as Steve Francis goes, I think he would be an interesting option, because he would be cheap, but any criticisms I see of Bibby are an order of magnitude higher with Francis, who is older, coming off a couple of injury filled seasons, has had some attitude issues, and isn’t nearly as good a shooter. That being said, I’ve always been intrigued by him, but a lot of his explosiveness seems to be gone, and unlike Bibby, he always depended on his athleticism and having the ball. He probably needs to reinvent himself to extend his career. It doesn’t matter anyway, since neither the Cavs nor Francis seem to be interested in each other.
Chuck – last year Sasha shot like 1-40 in the summer league, and he did just fine. I noticed Shannon Brown able to penetrate much better – which is what we need out of him.
JoeHoops, you’re already back. Who are you kidding, kiddo?
Kinda puts things into perspective as to how the rest of the NBA sees the Cavs roster. Varejao is considered to be less valuable than both Andreas Nocioni and Darko Milicic. And Gooden is considered to be less valuable than even MIKKI MOORE!!! Oy vey. Other than James, I wonder if there’s anybody on this roster that other teams don’t consider to be utter garbage. Doesn’t seem like it. Now I see why Ferry is so gonzo for Luis Castillo. Or Luis Tiant. Or whatever his name is.
It wouldn’t be that the Kings think Mikki Moore is more valuable than Drew Gooden, it would be that the Kings thing that Mikki Moore and Bibby are more valuable than Gooden alone.
I don’t think the bibby, gooden deal is a good one either. If anything james make plenty of money and should say I will take a pay cut for this team to get me some help. But we do help down in the low post. If Z, GOODEN, JAMES, S.BROWN, AND GIBSON the starting 5. I smell a champion ship but this time winning it. And L. Hughes off the bench along with A. Varejao. Cause this guys are good but I dont think they are starters.
I think I’d rather have Mike Moore than AV.
Michael Moore would be good. He could uncover the front office farce that’s been going on again this summer, with all these planted rumors about the Cavs GM working the phones, contacting free agents and looking for trades.
Several league sources have reported that Ferry is actually hiding out in BW’s mom’s basement, playing video games and flying in orders from Del Taco. Come to think of it, maybe Michael Moore’s not the right guy.
The Cavs must follow the format of former NBA Champs and evaluate what it was they were lacking to hurdle the Spurs. Losing a NBA playoff series gives a clear-cut indication of team weakness. Consistant playoff teams in history (Bulls, Lakers, Pistons, Spurs) addressed specific match-ups that failed or were limited in losing a playoff series. The CAVS need only to look at what it is going to take to get past the SPURS in 08′. Sure, they’ve put together the right ingredients to move past the PISTONS and possibly the HEAT, but to go into the 08′ playoffs with the same roster with more youth and less veterans will equal SWEEP once again if we meet the SPURS. Tony Parker averaged 25 a game against us. He is lightning. He is confident. He is improving. The CAVS cannot stop him, nor can any other team in the NBA. The only solution is to match him. Our POINT GUARDS are not capable of averaging 20-plus PPG in a playoff series. BIBBY+BOOBIE will close the gap!
awesome. to think i was just laughing at all the other unedited misspelled postings. I’d still take Mikki Moore over AV, though not over Drew. Mikki & Bibby are clearly more valuable than Drew. Aside from the usual names – Drew, Larry, Snow, Ira Newble & Damon Jones’s contracts, I’d make Shannon Brown available as well, but I suspect no one outside of Cleveland thinks he’s worth anything in trade. Still unless we dont’ resign Sasha or we trade Larry, I don’t think Brown is going to get much PT regardless of whether we bring in another point guard or not.
I don’t get it…in these blog parts, Ferry and Steve Kerr were described as loving hombres, and Kerr would be bending over, perhaps literally as well as figuratively, for Ferry. Assuming all that to be true, can somebody please explain to me how Phoenix literally gave away James Jones and Rudy Fernandez to Portland? Jones ain’t great, but as bad as the Cavs roster is, he’d probably be one of their best bench players right off the bat. And Fernandez is a much taller and whiter Daniel Gibson. I can’t fathom there was absolutely no way to juggle a few numbers to allow Kerr to give those guys to Cleveland instead of Portland. Correct me if I’m wrong, but can’t a team even hang on to the rights of one of those Eurostiffs if he wants to go back to Europe? It’s like having an extra asset that doesn’t count against the cap, one that can eventually be pawned to one of those GM goofs that overvalues European guys. Precisely what has Ferry been doing with his time? Sorry, I don’t get it.
Allow me to correct my words, there were those always mysterious “cash considerations” given to Phoenix. It’s not like Kerr just gave those guys away for a bar of chocolate. But the point is I don’t understand why Cleveland could not have done the same thing. How hard could it have been to juggle a few beans here, juggle a few beans there.
Tom: my point was that Brown is still and extremely inconsistent shooter and that since he can’t play the point, will is likely to get very few minutes. He certainly isn’t going to get time ahead of Sasha and Hughes.
Bread: LeBron’s contract is not a problem – he has one of the few good current contracts on the team (along with Gibson, Gooden, Brown – I think that’s it) Your lineup has no one to distribute the ball, unless we are going to have ‘Bron bring it up again, which just lets teams focus even more on him. I like Daniel Gibson, and he can bring the ball up the floor satisfactorily, but he is a shooter & scorer, not a passer.
DC:Brown’s stock has risen over the last week. He has been one of the most explosive Summer League players. But you’re right, no one is going to give you much for someone so unproven.
I was wondering the same thing, Alan. It almost seems spiteful toward Ferry how the Spurs gave Scola away, and then the Kings sign Moore immediately after Ferry leaks the so-called Bibby trade to the press. Maybe old Boatshoes isn’t all that popular among the other GMs. Would you like someone who offered Snow, Hughes, Newble, Damon Jones, etc., etc., in a trade? It’s probably pretty insulting.
How popular can a guy be when he shows up to meetings with reeking sweaty boatshoe stained feet?
Larry:
I don’t think Ferry leaked anything with the Bibby trade this time around. He and Damon Jones were both spotted with the Kings staff.
In case anyone missed it, Rashard Lewis pretty much confirms what all the cynics on this blog have been saying: That Cleveland’s run to the Finals doesn’t necessariliy make the Cavs an appealing team to join and, in fact, actually motivates players to play elsewhere.
From espn.com:
“And Lewis said watching James lead the Cavs out of the East only further cemented his belief that the Magic could quickly ascend into contention, something he just didn’t think would be possible if he remained in Seattle.
“What’s different from us and Cleveland?” Lewis said. “I feel like we’re going to have a chance to maybe even get to the finals next season.”
Dont Drink…
i can EASILY answer Lewis statement/question…. whats diff from them and cleveland?
LeBron James