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Meta
Can't wait for Mencken and kj posts.
I can; it must be exhausting to take oneself so seriously.
Nice to see Hillary pounce on this one, while the Washington Post's lead of the story was about the White House's coordinated response. Opportunism's a bitch.
Hey Burns- While your waiting for Mencken and kj I’ll fill in. Too bad Kerry’s brain isn’t as big as his hair. It was an extreme political blunder to say what he did knowing the Repubs would snatch it up like a dog would a ham bone. That was as predictable as the sunrise. What an act of desperation. Last time I checked Kerry wasn’t running for reelection this time around. The next six days should be entertaining. The circus is in town and the elephants are the stars of the show.
"If there was a well structured argument from kj or Mencken, I will have to admit that I missed it.
Just to be safe, I will ignore any future posts from them."
BURNS
"Can't wait for Mencken and kj posts."
BURNS
Anyone recall any Republican outrage over this:
"Military men are dumb, stupid animals to be used as pawns for foreign policy."
– Henry A. Kissinger, quoted by Monika Jensen-Stevenson, Kiss the Boys Goodbye, Dutton, 1990, Page 97
Hey KIds! How could we forget this classic:
"As you know, you go to war with the Army you have. They're not the Army you might want or wish to have at a later time."
– Defense Secretary Donald "No Apologies" Rumsfeld
"As you can probably see I was injured myself, not here at the hospital but in combat with a cedar. I eventually won."
GWBush…. spoken in the presence of servicemen and women wounded in combat in Iraq and Afghanistan, Brooke Army Medical Center, San Antonio, Texas, Jan. 1, 2006
Let me know when I've scratched your itch Powder Burns……
– Henry A. Kissinger, quoted by Monika Jensen-Stevenson, Kiss the Boys Goodbye, Dutton, 1990, Page 97"
Monika Jensen-Stevenson is an author well know for playing fast and loose with the 'facts'.
"– Defense Secretary Donald "No Apologies" Rumsfeld"
Referring to the numbers of men and equipment available, not the quality of the soldiers themselves.
"GWBush…. spoken in the presence of servicemen and women wounded in combat in Iraq and Afghanistan, Brooke Army Medical Center, San Antonio, Texas, Jan. 1, 2006"
Making a joke about himself not the troops.
Nice try. Next.
ok, i'll try. how bout this? from majority whip john boehner on CNN:
BOEHNER: Wolf, I understand that, but let's not blame what's happening in Iraq on Rumsfeld.
BLITZER: But he's in charge of the military.
BOEHNER: But the fact is, the generals on the ground are in charge, and he works closely with them and the president. We've seen this run up in violence as we get closer to the election, as we get closer to Ramadan, same thing we've seen over the last couple of years
wow! it's not runny's fault! it's the guys on the gorunds fault! umm, gee, is that blaming the military or what?? from the what #2 house man for the repubs?
see, right-winger's we can play this tit-for-tat crap that means NOTHING all day while the real crap that's going down in iraq continues.
if the president and his staff are too stupid to see the video clip and NOT know that kerry was calling him stupid, well, hell, what can kerry do?
hey, mencken, ya ever notice how after you and i post actual articles and quotes that smack burns down, he stops commenting? i fully expect the same here. like the draft-dodging repubs (bush, cheney, rove, etc.) burns is avoiding the "combat" of ideas. it's almost too easy…
So Mick, YOU would have made that joke in front of soldiers missing limbs? I don't think so, and you wouldn't have given a pass to Kerry if he had said the same thing.
As for Monika, on one hand you try to discredit her, but then you try to explain Kissinger's remarks. Either he said it or he didn't. You can't have it both ways.
Look, Kerry mangled what he said and even if he got it out properly, it still would have been meaningless. But at least Kerry apologized to the troops. We're still waiting for Bush to do the same. Kerry muffed a punchline. Bush well, he mangled an entire war and country.
hey, whaddya know! the ABJ editorial board got it right for a change! and i quote "President Bush led the way in arguing that Kerry intended to insult the intelligence of American troops serving in Iraq. The thought is silly, and worse, insulting to a man who served two tours in the Vietnam War, receiving the Bronze Star and the Silver Star. On Wednesday, Kerry apologized to anyone who was offended. Better to consider the context of his words. His real target was George W. Bush."
see, you "right-wing nutjobs," anybody with a brain who watched the video of kerry KNOWS he was refering to bush! but, because the repubs are intellectually and morally bankrupt, they have NO problem lying and saying that kerry was refering to the troops. and to kerry's shame, yet again, he let them get away with it.
but, just like the webb thing, this is so MEANINGLESS. it is an insult to all involved to even keep discussing it. but since you right-winger's don't want to talk about how the administration allowed the iraqi's to keep a kidnapped u.s. solider.
we all fiddle while rome burns… and no, i'm not talking about you, burns…
Kerry didn't muff any lines and I'd respect him a lot more if he'd own up to the original point of his statement–citizens who don't necessarily have all the advantages the rest of us enjoy are doing most of the heavy lifting during what he thinks is an unnecessary war.
It is probably as true today as it was during Viet Nam.
Of course Kerry's going to backtrack and waffle, claiming he's sorry that his words were twisted. Why be a part of that?
http://apnews.myway.com/article/20061102/D8L4QH580.html
If you look at military recruiting in general, what they're selling is opportunity, job training, money for college, travel, etc.
The demographic they're mining and why should be obvious. Recruiters routinely troll the shopping malls and the other areas frequented by teenagers and the unemployed. They don't spend much time cruising Ivy League campuses for obvious reasons. There's no controversy here and really no reason for Kerry to apologize. In Kerry's case, his two-step will be worse than the crime.
larry and slope, did you read the what i posted? the ABJ and anybody who actually WATCHED the video, can see that BEFORE kerry said "the statement," said he was "just in texas!" CLEARLY, the context shows that he was setting up a joke about bush being an idiot and he got lost and garbled the damn thing!
sheesh! all these other stuff is irrelevent! and who the blazes cares about what he said in '72?
would you right-wingers like me to post the video of CONSERVATIVES andy sullivan and chris hitchens saying that kerry DID not say what you goofballs say he did?
again, this is a hoax. faked outrage, something the right seems quite good at.
oh, and i notice none of the many right-wingers here seem to respond at all to my post quoting what boehner said about our generals and troops on the ground. what a freakin' surprise…
It is faked outrage because the Republicans are delighted that Kerry is up to his old tricks. He must be working undercover or something.
It boggles the imagination that George Bush generates enough malaprops on a daily basis, on every conceivable subject, enough to literally fill books, and it goes relatively unnoticed by the majority of Americans. On the other hand, maybe Americans have just stopped listening to Bush.
http://drsanity.blogspot.com/2005/11/lets-discuss-bush-derangement-syndrome.html
ok, slope, i'll bite…WTF would you call the right-wing response to clinton? hmmm? reasoned disagreement? i'm waiting…
i will also CONTINUE to wait for your outrage about boehner's statement blaming the generals on the ground for the iraqi mess.
larry, frankly i have no idea what your on about.
http://www.boston.com/news/globe/editorial_opinion/oped/articles/2004/11/04/big_loss_for_the_bush_haters/
"BOEHNER: But the fact is, the generals on the ground are in charge, and he works closely with them and the president. We've seen this run up in violence as we get closer to the election, as we get closer to Ramadan, same thing we've seen over the last couple of years"
How do you make the logical lightyear sized leap required to equate this with calling our enlisted soldiers stupid? Mencken at least made an attempt at some semblance of logic, meager though it was.
"As for Monika, on one hand you try to discredit her, but then you try to explain Kissinger's remarks. Either he said it or he didn't. You can't have it both ways."
Where did you get this? Now you're just making things up out of whole cloth. Go ahead and quote me where I attempted to explain Kissingers faked remarks. (Hint: you'll be looking for quite a while)
"If you look at military recruiting in general, what they're selling is opportunity, job training, money for college, travel, etc."
So what IS you're point? Your argument (like in most topics) is changing all over the place. Is it that Kerry's insult is ok because republicans have (according to you) said similar things? Is it that Kerry flubbed the joke and didnt mean it the way it came out or is it that Kerry is right that our soldiers are in fact stupid, so he was justified? Which is it?
You say I can't have it both ways yet you seem to want it three.
Kudos to these "Right Wing Nutjobs"
http://corner.nationalreview.com/post/?q=OTQzZTMzMjAyYjQ4NzcxMjE1OTkxNTc2YWQ5YzI5ZjQ=
Kudos to these "Right Wing Nutjobs"
Or gutless Democrats pandering the week before an election.
This Kerry brouhaha is biggest bunch of horsesh*t to date.
mick, there is nothing more funny than a person who THINKS they're smart strutting around PROVING they are not.
first of all, oh ye of little grey matter, you, like most right-wing hacks, omit the first part of the quote by boehner. let's look at it again, shall we?
BOEHNER: Wolf, I understand that, but let's not blame what's happening in Iraq on Rumsfeld.
BLITZER: But he's in charge of the military.
BOEHNER: But the fact is, the generals on the ground are in charge, and he works closely with them and the president.
so, he says that we shouldn't blame rummy but when wolf says but he's in charge, boehner says "the fact is, the generals are in charge!" ok, how is that NOT saying that the blame is not with rummy but with the generals? can you read?
and how funny that you accuse ME of a leap in logic when it is YOU and your intellectually dishonest right-wing knuckle-draggering friends are WILLFULLY misrepresenting kerry's comments. again, did ya read the ABJ today? they said ""President Bush led the way in arguing that Kerry intended to insult the intelligence of American troops serving in Iraq. The thought is SILLY, and worse, INSULTING to a man who served two tours in the Vietnam War, receiving the Bronze Star and the Silver Star. On Wednesday, Kerry apologized to anyone who was offended. Better to consider the CONTEXT of his words. His real TARGET was George W. Bush."
yet again, i point to quotes and facts while you give half-wit opinions. YOU'RE not smart enough to be in the KISS army, fer chrissakes…
You're awfully free with the insults there buddy. I especially like this one.
"can you read?"
Especially in light of the fact that you completely failed to comprehend what I asked you. Let me type it again for you since you seem to need spoon-fed.
How do you equate this quote with calling our enlisted soldiers stupid?
Answer it.
i do NOT equate it at all, you fool!! they two things are NOT equatable. again, can you read? did you read what the ABJ said? what part are you not getting? kerry did NOT
"call our enlisted soldiers stupid!" read the quote from the ABJ again!! it's not my OPINION, it the opinion of an newspaper EDITORIAL STAFF. and if that is not enough for you, i will be HAPPY to post the link to christopher hitchens and andrew sullivan's apperance on CNN last night where they BOTH say kerry did NOT say what you claim he did! and they are both pro-war and/or conservatives! how many people do you need, cuz i'll point you to them til you get this OBVIOUS point!
i am saying that boehner BLAMES the generals for the iraqi mess. not rumsfeld. so i am saying he is insulting our generals, who were all troops at one point, right? why does john boehener hate the military? oh, is that question unfair? funny, that same accusation is launched by you right-wing "nutjobs" at any number of dems or progressives.
so, mick, your premise is COMPLETELY faulty. hence, i am not equating the two at all. can that penetrate your skull? hmm?
here's ANOTHER media person saying that kerry was NOT talking about the troops from msnbc's "hardball":
MATTHEWS (10/31/06): "Just to clarify what happened in context, yesterday at Pasadena College, John Kerry, the senator for Massachusetts and the former Democratic candidate for president, was talking about President Bush. He made a couple of shots.
Let me read you from the Associated Press at the time. Kerry opened his speech at Pasadena City College with several one liners, saying at one point that Bush had lived in Texas, but now, quote, "lives in a state of denial."
He then said, “You know, education—if you make the most of it, you study hard, you do your homework, and you make an effort to be smart and you can do well. If you don`t, you get stuck in Iraq." He was talking about the president, not about the people fighting our war in Iraq."
ok, so do you get it, folks? i reject COMPLETELY and WHOLY the premise that kerry was talking about the troops and i have LOTS of examples to back me up.
jumping jesus on a pogo-stick, i cannot believe we have wasted so much time on this non-story…
"i do NOT equate it at all, you fool"
Yes, you did. Follow closely now, it seems you have a hard time with basic reasoning.
Remedial logic:
1.Mencken brings up examples of republicans insulting troops.
2. I dispute them.
3. You bring up your own example OF REPUBLICANS INSULTING TROOPS, and I quote:
"ok, i'll try. how bout this? from majority whip john boehner on CNN:"
And you then proceed to quote me a passage that you now claim does not equate to an insult. So why did you bring it up as an example of (stay with me now) REPUBLICANS INSULTING TROOPS in the first place?
But wait, it gets better! Theres this money quote right here:
" so i am saying he is insulting our generals, who were all troops at one point, right?"
You flip-flop again in the very next paragraph! Absolutely priceless! And I thought Mencken had the logic twisting skills!
So now, getting back to your last claim:
" so i am saying he is insulting our generals, who were all troops at one point, right?"
THIS my friend, THIS STATEMENT RIGHT HERE is the point you were trying to make thats such an astounding leap of logic. That assigning culpability to generals in the field somehow equates to insulting our soliders.
"so, mick, your premise is COMPLETELY faulty"
The funniest part this is, you havent the slightest clue as to what this means. Reread every post I've made and you will discover that I NEVER STATED A PREMISE, nor did I even claim to have a position on the matter. I merely questioned yours, and what fun it is to see the apoplexy as a result!
Now, just for shits and giggles, Im going to address another argumentative back-flip you've managed. Let's compare two of your quotes.
1."hey, whaddya know! the ABJ editorial board got it right for a change!"
2."did you read what the ABJ said? what part are you not getting? kerry did NOT
"call our enlisted soldiers stupid!" read the quote from the ABJ again!! it's not my OPINION, it the opinion of an newspaper EDITORIAL STAFF"
Quote 1 states that the ABJ USUALLY gets it wrong. Quote 2 now omplies that they are the definitive source for factual information. So, which is it?
Adressing some of your other sources, you're seriously going to try to brand Hitchens and Sullivan as conservatives? Pro-war they may be but thats because Hitchens knows what the Muslims will do to the athiests if they win and Sullivan knows what will happen to the homosexuals. Their opinions on this matter cannot in any way, shape, or form be construed as coming from a conservative source. Being pro-war is irrelavent.
Heres another worhty source:
"Let me read you from the Associated Press at the time."
Isnt this the same paper that hires jihadi collaborators and photoshop fakin.. er, retouching experts? Yeah, I thought so.
" i cannot believe we have wasted so much time on this non-story…"
I'm enjoying it, aren't you?
http://today.reuters.com/news/articlenews.aspx?type=topNews&storyid=2006-11-02T195933Z_01_L02881666_RTRUKOC_0_US-IRAQ-FRANCE-TALABANI.xml&src=rss&rpc=22
So MIck, which conservatives are true conservatives? How do you define such a person ?
Hey Sam. Good News in your link…. only three more years in Iraq.
Just another $220 billion dollars and another couple thousand dead American soldiers just so Iraq can elect an Islamic fundamentalist to lead their country. What a smart shopper you are. Now there's a true conservative for you Mick.
"Hey Sam. Good News in your link…. only three more years in Iraq.
Just another $220 billion dollars and another couple thousand dead American soldiers just so Iraq can elect an Islamic fundamentalist to lead their country. What a smart shopper you are. Now there's a true conservative for you Mick."
Mick, this guy is whacko. The article talks about the President of Iraq saying that, not Americans. Since he mentioned your name I am directing this to you because I refuse to respond to such reduculous posts.
Sam I'm pretty sure Mick could have found this himself. You come off here like a grade school kid telling on someone to the teacher.
"Mr. Mick, Mr. Mick…… Mencken hates America, and our freedom, and, and, and, he doesn't love Jesus….. and he called me a bad name, and took my lunch money…"
If you manage to work up some testicular fortitude in the near future Sam, I'd love to hear why my post was "reduculous". Otherwise stick to your gutless clipping and pasteing. This is a blog, not a RSS feed.
oh sweet jesus, i do not have time for this… mick, i KNEW that you were going to call into question my "sources!" i knew it! way to fall right into my trap. what trap, you may ask? i wanted to bait you to come out and say that you don't believe ANY mainstream news org's or reporters. which with your AP quote you do.that's all you right-wingers ever do. see, mencken, this is why you can never TRULY debate conservatives. because they will NEVER admit that anything is a fact. they will whine and cry about the "MSM" and the liberal bias, blah, blah, blah…
and, mick, if you can't tell that i was mocking you right-wing nuts with the boehner stuff, well, it's no WONDER you cannot understand the context in the kerry's remarks.
I think it would be great idea if all the players here would list their "acceptable" news sources. We could see if there is any overlap that we could all agree on.
And by the way Mick, the Associated Press is not a paper, it's a news service staffed by hundreds of journalists around the world. Sure, the jackass photographer doctored (obviously and poorly) a photo.
He was busted and he was fired. Justice was served.
Meanwhile the Bush Administration plants dozens of spurious stories in the Iraqi media on a regular basis.
oh, and one more thing to show how dumb mick is. when i mentioned the ABJ editoral board getting "it right," i was using the ABJ as an EXAMPLE of a conservative who was agreeing with me on THIS issue. they got it right on this ONE issue. jesus, that's really hard to get, isn't it? i was using examples of people i do NOT USUALLY agree with to show you right-wing "nutjobs" that it is NOT just me or mencken saying that kerry did not say what you claimed! why is this so hard to follow??
then i used sullivan and hitchens because they are pro-war AND BECAUSE we are talking about war and the troops, etc. and last i checked, sullivan just wrote a book called "the soul of a conservative." so, he's not a conservative? what color is the sky in your world, mick?
oh, yeah and in THIS world, mick, it was a photog working for RUETERS, not the AP. you "thought so," right? wrong. i suggest you you stop "thinking." but i'm sure to the right-wing swamp that is your "brain,"
AP and rueters are allllll the same…
here's the link for the rueters story but it's a "MSM" source. i'm sure it's fantasy, right?
http://abcnews.go.com/US/story?id=2288892&page=1
Mick, I know that anything posted here is going to be challenged for it's accuracy, so I will acknowledge up fron that I can't prove that KJ and Mencken are cross dressers.
I saw it on Chris Matthews!
hmmm, sam. are you sure you're not trying to tell us something about yourself.
again, i have an article for you:
Candidate's cross-dressing adds to GOP race in Texas
By Jay Root and Martha Deller
Knight Ridder Newspapers
KNIGHT RIDDER NEWSPAPERS
CLEBURNE, Texas — In the heart of the Texas Bible belt, where a woman is being prosecuted for selling sex toys, a man with a cross-dressing past might seem like more grist for a sermon full of fire and brimstone.
But folks in Johnson County — and staunch conservatives at that — don't appear to be rushing to throw stones at Sam Walls, who has acknowledged dressing up like a woman but won't say much else.
On the eve of today's hotly contested Republican runoff for a state House seat, Walls continued to shoo away the media, but his friends and supporters rushed to his defense, highlighting a lifetime of philanthropy and brushing off the controversy as irrelevant.
so, a republican named sam who is a cross-dresser. ya wanna come clean here, sammy? it's ok. i'm a progressive and i won't judge you too harshly!
and larry, you have been very disappointing lately. we expect you to be funny. come on, man. we know ya got it in ya…
Howard Dean to Speak at Black Gay Pride Event
September 26, 2006
Vermont Governor and Democratic National Committee Chairman Howard Dean will be attending Baltimore’s Black lesbian, gay, bisexual, and transgender pride celebration set to take place Friday, October 6, 2006 at the Wyndham Baltimore Inner Harbour Hotel located at 101 Werst Fayette Street in Baltimore. He will be the featured speaker at Baltimore Black Pride’s Pre Black Out Party Reception that will take place at 5 p.m. This will be Dean's first time attending a Black gay pride celebration.
The reception is the first official event of the weekend long Baltimore Black Gay Pride which runs through Sunday, October 8, 2006.
awww, look everybody! i made sam all nervous with my outing him as a cross-dresser! btw, that doesn't make you gay, sam.
either way, it's ok. i understand that everyday there is another closted gay republican who comes out or is caught doing something illegal. it's gotta make you and all your right-wing hypocritical pals nervous. you start looking over your shoulder, you wake up in a cold sweat wondering if you'll be next.
but ya know what, sam, the democratic party won't hate you for who you are. as long as you don't commit any crimes like foley and haggard, et al, you are welcome to join us.
think about it, eh?
(hey mencken isn't it funny how quickly one can get these right-wingers to revert to their natural state of homophobic racism? so easy…)
"oh sweet jesus, i do not have time for this… mick,"
Apparently you do, as you're still going.
"way to fall right into my trap. what trap,"
Riiiiight. I didnt need to discredit your news source as you did it yourself. Your subsequent lame attempts to redefine the way you used it are stereotypical to the point of parody. Come on kj, gimme some of that 'intellectual honesty' you're always claiming we nutjobs lack.
"they got it right on this ONE issue"
According to whom? Oh right, Hitchens and Sullivan.
" then i used sullivan and hitchens because they are pro-war AND BECAUSE we are talking about war and the troops, etc"
In case you hadn't realized, we arent talking about war at all. We were talking about the remarks about education levels of soldiers (or Bush) made by a senator. Nothing more, nothing less. Why cant you stay on topic?
In any case, you used them as an example in a manner that suggests we need to give extra creedence to their testimony since they are conservatives. In Hitchens case, its completely laughable. He's always claimed to be a liberal. Sullivan, despite his claims to conservatism still VOTED FOR KERRY in '04. And I should be surprised that he came to Kerry's defense on this matter? Riiiight. Want to try to sell me some land in Florida next?
"oh, yeah and in THIS world, mick, it was a photog working for RUETERS, not the AP."
You're right, my mistake. the doctored photos were from Reuters. AP just hires jihadi sympathizers. I did however enjoy the sob story you linked me to. I almost shed a tear of pity for him. Well, no. Not really.
Now, if you want to make the attempt to convince me that Kerry didnt mean to insult the troops, I'm all ears. I'll listen to any reasoned arguments you might have. I'm even willing to believe it was a flubbed jab at Bush. Unfortunately, all you've done this far is to say "SEE? THIS GUY SAID IT SO IT MUST BE TRUE!" and then throw insults. I find that to be a slightly unconvincing argument.
Funny, I recall Mencken criticizing someone here for not using their own arguments and merely linking to things that others said, so why don't you listen to Mencken and convince us all that you're capable of a reasoned argument?
I don't see eye to eye much with Mick on most things but at least he's trying to make his points. Sam on the other hand once again shows that he's incapable of any kind of argument beyond calling people that piss him off…. cross-dressers. Pathetic.
On the other hand Mick's criticism of AP was off-base. AP "just hires jihadi sympathizers" ?????? Where is your proof of that? I have friends that work for AP that might take offense at your statement if they wern't so busy laughing out a lung.
http://worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=52775
This happened after Russia and China said they would not enforce sanctions against Iran for violating nuclear treaty:
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,3-2436948,00.html
It's interesting that Slope rejects many legitimate Western news sources, but then wants us to take as gospel the statement of a Islamic terrorist, Jihadi Jarra. Slope, why are you so willing to attach your credibility to the words of a terrorist? Are you some sort of ideological cross-dresser ?
I guess all these dems are cross dressers like you:
National leaders in the Democratic Party, including Howard Dean's Democratic National Committee, potential House Speaker Nancy Pelosi, possible presidential candidate Hillary Clinton and longtime party stalwart Ted Kennedy don't want to talk with WorldNetDaily about an endorsement their party has received.
Do you think that Ken Mehlman is going to go on Meet the Press this morning and brag about Bush's weekly conference calls with Pastor Haggard ? No of course not -anymore than the Dems would trumpet a terrorist's endorsement. However the difference is Bush is/was Haggard's buddy and I think I can say quite safely that none of these Dems have never even spoken to this guy Jihadi. If destroying your political rivals was as simple as getting a ridiculous endorsement all, anybody would have to do is pay a convicted pedophile $500 bucks to endorse their opponent in the Weekly World News or whatever that supermarket rag is you read. Slope it's the issues that matter.
It's the gotdam issues. More spurious nonsense from you.
You don't even understand what's going here.
OK Mick they are all yours. My head is tired from trying to figure out what they are saying since they twist everything. I will take a sabbatical and you toy with them for a a while.
Good idea Slope. You're in way over your head.
Well, its been a couple days kj, and no cogent arguments from you. I guess we'll give you the benefit of the doubt and ASSume (now I'm doing it!) you've been busy because it sure would be awkward for you to drop out of 'combat' after bravado like this:
"hey, mencken, ya ever notice how after you and i post actual articles and quotes that smack burns down, he stops commenting? i fully expect the same here. like the draft-dodging repubs (bush, cheney, rove, etc.) burns is avoiding the "combat" of ideas. it's almost too easy…"
Careful, Mick. kj may just be setting another trap!
Hasn't this thread been beat to death yet?