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Different President, Same Lawlessness

by The Reverend on March 12, 2010

in 2008 election,Barack Obama,Bush White House,executive powers,rule of law

President Obama, despite his many campaign attacks on the "lawless" Bush-Cheney regime, has continued those same Bush policies….

From a Washington Post piece, March 5, 2010….

An interagency review of all cases at Guantanamo Bay concluded that about 50 prisoners will have to be held in some form of prolonged detention without trial, because the evidence against them was obtained through the use of harsh interrogation methods or because its revelation in court would compromise intelligence gathering. The government says the detainees are too dangerous to release.

Detaining people in American prisons, indefinitely and without trial, was once considered by candidate Obama as an evil, anti-American, practice horribly abused by the rogue leadership of King George Jr. and his trusty Dick. Now, that same anti-American practice is fully embraced by the Democratic President Obama.

Two presidents, one from each political party….each, now, have justified and made into conventional wisdom the lie that the U.S. can no longer follow the U.S. Constitution. It is no longer safe for America to follow the U.S. legal contract.

Indefinite detention without trial is not the only Bush-Cheney policy which Obama has now embraced. Presidential power to order assassinations of U.S. citizens is presently embraced by the Obama administration.

Dana Priest, Washington Post article

After the Sept. 11 attacks, Bush gave the CIA, and later the military, authority to kill U.S. citizens abroad if strong evidence existed that an American was involved in organizing or carrying out terrorist actions against the United States or U.S. interests, military and intelligence officials said. The evidence has to meet a certain, defined threshold. The person, for instance, has to pose "a continuing and imminent threat to U.S. persons and interests," said one former intelligence official.

The Obama administration has adopted the same stance. If a U.S. citizen joins al-Qaeda, "it doesn't really change anything from the standpoint of whether we can target them," a senior administration official said. "They are then part of the enemy."

Now let me be clear about the implications here. Taking the neo-conservative bullsh*t seriously for just a moment….isn't it true that the bogusly named 'war on terror's' battlefield is the entire world? By definition, then, U.S. soil is included as part of this battlefield. Therefore, I can't find any reason why an American president couldn't order the assassination of a U.S "terrorist" citizen on U.S. soil. If there is an argument to the contrary….I'd like to hear it.

See if you can find any potential dangers in the following Obama policy….

Washington Times, February 4, 2010….

The U.S. intelligence community policy on killing American citizens who have joined al Qaeda requires first obtaining high-level government approval, a senior official disclosed to Congress on Wednesday.

Director of National Intelligence Dennis C. Blair said in each case a decision to use lethal force against a U.S. citizen must get special permission. . . .

He also said there are criteria that must be met to authorize the killing of a U.S. citizen that include "whether that American is involved in a group that is trying to attack us, whether that American is a threat to other Americans. Those are the factors involved."

See any potential dangers? Think it might be possible for a future radical U.S. presidential administration to start offing "dangerous supporters of al-Qaeda" inside the U.S? Do you think that such a policy of assassinating U.S. citizens on U.S. soil on the order of the president just might be open to abuse?

When was it, exactly, that U.S. citizens gave up their constitutional rights to a fair trial…..gave up their right to be presented with charges before a jury of his or her peers?

Have all political leaders in America simply given up on…..America?

  • Bubba

    Is this an impeachable offense? If so why aren't you yelling for his impeachment like you did for Bush's?

  • The Reverend

    Bush couldn't be impeached for his numerous crimes…..at least, that's what conservatives told me at the time. Why would it be okay to impeach Obama and not Bush? Does the Constitutional provision for impeachment state that only progressive presidents can be subjected to impeachment?

  • Bubba

    And are you only allowed to call for Republican presidents to be impeached?

  • Da King

    I have to give the Rev a little credit here. At least he is being consistent with his views, unlike in other recent posts.

    But assassinating U.S. citizens, terrorist or otherwise, certainly didn't begin with Bush. Remember Waco, Ruby Ridge ? I don't think Bush was President then, and those people weren't even terrorists.

    Al Qaeda is the enemy. We kill the enemy, even if his name is Adam Gadahn, U.S. born Al Qaeda. He certainly wants to kill us.

  • Jacquie

    King, do you not understand why the statement "We kill the enemy", when no formal procedures and absolute limitations are placed on it, leads to widespread fear and breakdown of both personal security and the governance of rule of law? Are you saying you would like to live in a feudal society? It is actually less safe in one of those, you know.

  • Da King

    Do you NOT realize we have been killing Al Qaeda members for years now ? Is that somehow wrong in your eyes ? Do you think our society breaks down when we wage war against our enemies ? I beg to differ.

    And there ARE formal procedures and limitations. The Rev even mentioned some of them in his post.

  • The Reverend

    First, King is trying to make a bogus equivalency with his reference to Waco and Ruby Ridge to the president-can-now-order-assassinations. NO ONE in a leadership role PLANNED to assassinate the Koresh bunch or Randy Weaver's family.

    Once again, no sale.

    Second…The assassination plans in my post are the product of the criminal Bush administration….now embraced by Obama. Call me, you know, crazy, but I am relatively certain that the Constitution applies to ALL U.S. citizens. Every citizen has a right to have his day in court, to defend himself from whatever charges.

    Oddly, I don't find any power in the Constitution for the president to order the assassination of U.S. citizens. Odd, isn't it?

  • larry d.

    No one is planning to assassinate any citizens now, Reverend. They're just preparing for the possibility that it might be necessary.

    Kind of like rolling up some heavy equipment and troops armed to the teeth around a religious group's compound. Or posting snipers around the perimeter of some dude's homestead in Idaho. Only more legal-like.

  • You lie!

    There you go, Rev. Although you still seem incapable of grasping the concept that non-Americans don't have Constitutional rights, at least you're on the right track re: Obama = Bush on all the things hipsters and other twerps hated most about Bush. Suckers.

    Unrelated, but it's a real screamer:

    http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/opinion/blogs/beltway-confidential/Pelosi-Health-care-reform-will-finally-allow-artists-to-focus-on-being-unemployed-comfortably-87491812.html

    Nancy Pelosi, in arguing for Nazi-like (Nazis were liberals, keep in mind) health care, said last night on national TV: "Think of an economy where people could be an artist or a photographer or a writer without worrying about keeping their day job in order to have health insurance."

    There you go. The Nazi-like health care bill is an effort to get non-Democrat-voters to pay for insurance for Democrat voters. Simple as that. That's the game.

    She may as well have said "Think of an economy where you weren't responsible for anything and everyone else paid for your stuff."

    Sick stuff.

  • Andrea

    I think it is what the political consensus has become. He tried to bring trials to NYC and that blew up in his face politically and now maybe he is just avoiding the matter and just letting things be as is. Unfortunately this is what many Americans seem to want, because they have been brainwashed with fear.

  • Jacquie

    King, society breaks down when the definition and identification of 'enemy' (someone we can legally kill) is not done by a formal declaration of war, or courts of law. Waging a closed doors war breaks a society down. Why do you think the U.S.S.R. failed? Part of it was too much military spending, part of it was failed economic practices, part of it was the constant redefining of citizens of that State as enemies of that state. Doesn't create a lot of social stability or safety.

    Hey you lie!, maybe you haven't heard, but self-employed people usually can't get health insurance at the same rates as people working for a larger company. That's what Pelosi meant. She could also have said a real-estate agent or an actor. In other words, she was talking about those people being able to buy health insurance for similar rates as people that have companies that use buying pools to negotiate for lower rates. Instead of them getting automatically stuck with the 'lemon rates' insurance companies offer to single buyers they can't accurately predict costs for. Sorry if that all goes over your head; maybe you can read up on business and economic workings sometime. But meanwhile you go ahead and keep crybabying that you think everyone is trying to take advantage of you. I'm sure somebody somewhere will pat your back and dry your tears.

  • larry d.

    Yes, Jacquie, the Soviet Union failed because of "failed economic practices," which most folks who aren't interested in using euphemisms call "communism." It was a system based partly on the notion that the state could take from those who produced and provide for those who didn't.

    Artists who cannot afford healthcare cannot do so because there is not enough demand for their work. They aren't producing enough of value to the public to make a living, and probably should keep their day jobs while honing their skills as a hobby or passion. Thus, Pelosi is indeed implying that the state should take from those who do produce enough of value to society to make a living, and give to those who–by conscious choice–do not.

    She didn't say real estate agents because real estate agents by and large provide enough of a service to society that they can make a living off of it. If not, they usually switch careers.

  • The Reverend

    You lie!…sadly….fibs again.

    No one is talking about non-U.S. citizens. The Bush-Obama assassination plans, as my post transparently demonstrates, includes U.S. citizens.

    larry purposely mistakes a government law enforcement response to a fluid and potentially dangerous situation…. to cold, hard policies of presidentially ordered, premeditated assassination of a specifically targeted U.S. citizen. Convenient, perhaps, …..but entirely wrong.

    Andrea…you're right that political consensus, drummed up by unceasing fearmongering from conservatives and whore-media, have led to Obama's cave-in on Bush policies. However, Obama's pragmatism doesn't excuse his lack of strong leadership in reversing the horrible precedents set by the Bush-Cheney criminals. The one thing I never expected from Obama was an embrace of neo-conservatism. Obama has even been willing to diminish his own Attorney General by, pragmatically, giving in to the wishes of the deranged. I support Obama, generally….he's a breath of fresh air after the stench of the Bush gang…but he's wrong on this one.

  • You lie!

    Rev:

    You wrote "Detaining people in American prisons, indefinitely and without trial, was once considered by candidate Obama as an evil, anti-American, practice horribly abused by the rogue leadership of King George Jr. and his trusty Dick. Now, that same anti-American practice is fully embraced by the Democratic President Obama."

    Presumably, you are aware that non-citizens are being detained at Guantanamo Bay. Which is why I wrote "Although you still seem incapable of grasping the concept that non-Americans don't have Constitutional rights, at least you're on the right track re: Obama = Bush on all the things hipsters and other twerps hated most about Bush. Suckers."

    It appears once again that you are lying. This time, you lied about me lying. Lying while accusing another person (who is telling the truth) of lying? That's the ultimate lie.

    You are the ultimate liar.

  • Andrea

    I don't disagree with you Reverend. Did you read the book "Game change ". I recommend it . Very interesting on the marketing of the candidates. Obama actually didn't want to be the 'change candidate " and had reservations – he wanted to be the one for the working people but that was already Edwards slogan. So his advisers convinced him to go with the change theme.

  • frank

    Mr. You lie!,
    You might want to check it, but I believe that the Fifth Amendment, guaranteeing due process, begins with "No person", not "No citizen". And, I may be wrong, but I think that the only place in the Constitution where citizenship is mentioned is in the requirements to be president.

    Mr. Bubba,
    I would agree that Obama should be impeached for continuing the impeachable acts of his predecessor. However, if one accepts the premise that Bush did nothing impeachable, then continuing his acts wouldn't be impeachable, either. Goose and gander.

  • frank

    Rev,
    Along with wondering about whether our "leaders" have given up on America, I would ask, "What ever happened to "the home of the brave"?"

  • larry d.

    frank, the fact that citizenship isn't mentioned except in regard to the presidency requirement suggests that "person" does in fact imply an assumed "citizen" throughout the document.

    And the rationale that "person" means anyone from anywhere would suggest that anyone from anywhere could vote in our elections, wouldn't it?

  • The Reverend

    The semantics don't matter…not really. The Supremes ruled during Bush-Cheney that detainees have habeas rights. End of story. That is why..You lie!….is wrong in adding a citizenship requirement in order to escape American gulags and kangaroo courts (or no courts at all).

    frank…great question….I have a hard time accepting the fact that a big swath of Americans, primarily conservative in ideology, have turned into quivering bunnies. How that happened baffles me.

    I guess all those years of telling people to "be scared"…..and how "everything has changed"…and how anyone who didn't act sufficiently scared was just oh-so-pre-9-11…..has taken it's toll.

    Andrea….haven't read Game Change because I can't stand Halperin, one of the authors. Halperin is a Village charter member and majors on gossip and rumor….but he does have good sources.

    I realize that politicians have to promise stuff when they campaign. I don't expect those same politicians to deliver on all those promises….however, I do not expect those politicians to do just the OPPOSITE of what they promised. That makes me angry.

    You lie!…."Obama = Bush on all the things hipsters and other twerps hated most about Bush. Suckers."

    I feel ya' dawg…but dude……how in the blazes can liberals be both "hipsters" and "twerps?" Seems, you know, contradictory.

  • You lie!

    Frank:

    You are attempting to make the case, it appears, that foreign nationals plucked from foreign fields of battle engaged in a war against Americans, are guaranteed the same Constitutional rights as you and I (I assume you are an American citizen).

    Is that what you're trying to say?

  • You lie!

    Rev:

    The Supreme Court also decided recently that corporations could spend unlimited amounts of money on politics.

    If we're deferring to the infinite wisdom of five robed judges (recall that a majority of SC justices once believed racial segregation was h'unky d'ory), it would seem you have some corrections to make on this here blog going back a couple of weeks ago.

    Rev, you are such a liar.

  • frank

    larry d.,
    Wow! I hope you didn't injure yourself with that semantical contortionism. But I suppose that allowing yourself to substitute one word for another with a different meaning does improve your chances at successful argument. But don't you "conservatives" complain about judges who takes such liberties with the language of the Constitution? If you don't know, citizenship is required to vote.

    Mr. You lie!,
    That is not what I'm trying to say at all. You claimed that the Constitution does not guarantee rights for non-citizens. This is wrong. But the subject is whether the president has the Constitutional power to order the murder of American citizens. Inasmuch as Bush assumed the powers to jail Americans indefinitely, wiretap Americans without court order, seize Americans' property, etc., the Rev is right to note that this "war on terror" has no borders. Ergo, the power to murder American citizens can be assumed to apply on American soil.

  • You lie!

    Frank:

    Understood. But I was responding to what Rev wrote –

    "Indefinite detention without trial is not the only Bush-Cheney policy which Obama has now embraced."

    We are not detaining indefinitely Americans at Guantanamo Bay. We are detaining indefinitely foreign nationals who for one reason or another are suspected of terrorism-related actions against Americans.

    This is what I was talking about. Foreign nationals don't have Constitutional rights, as they are not Americans.

  • larry d.

    Read it again and think harder a little bit, frank. The wiseacre stuff doesn't come off so well when it's obvious you aren't grasping the basics.

  • frank

    Mr. You lie!,
    The determination of Constitutional rights is based upon the location of the crime. If the crime is committed in the US, the defendent, whether or not a citizen, is afforded the rights enumerated in the Constitution.

    larry d.,
    Sorry to offend, but given your predilection for insult, I thought you had a thicker skin. But no matter how many times I reread your post, I see no reason for your assumption that the words person and citizen are interchangeable. In fact, since the founders used the word "citizen" in the presidential requirements section, it's only logical that they used it to differentiate from "person".

  • You lie!

    "The determination of Constitutional rights is based upon the location of the crime. If the crime is committed in the US, the defendent, whether or not a citizen, is afforded the rights enumerated in the Constitution."

    And therein lies the heart of the debate. Plenty of people – including 4 of 9 members of the US Supreme Court – disagree vehemently. So we're left with a conversation that pits two sides – one that would give Osama Bin Laden the same Constitutional rights as you enjoy as a US citizen – against each other.

    Can't wait for November.

  • Da King

    Rev says, " NO ONE in a leadership role PLANNED to assassinate the Koresh bunch or Randy Weaver's family."

    ????? Janet Reno wasn't in a leadership role ?

    I take back what I said about you being consistent with your views. You're using those double standards again.

  • Da King

    Jacquie says, "King, society breaks down when the definition and identification of 'enemy' (someone we can legally kill) is not done by a formal declaration of war, or courts of law. Waging a closed doors war breaks a society down."

    I'm not sure what country you are living in, but in this one Congress authorized both the Afghanistan and Iraq wars. We went after Al Qaeda because THEY ATTACKED US. I'm also trying to think of a time we declared war against a group of enemies that don't represent any particular country. I can't think of one. Nevertheless, Al Qaeda is the enemy, and if a few American citizens take up arms with the enemy, then they are also enemies of the state, and we are perfectly within our rights to kill them in the course of the war. This hardly means we are becoming the USSR. If we are becoming more communist-like, it is most definitely not because of the right-wingers. That is the province of the leftists, who rail incessantly against capitalism and liberty.

  • Da King

    Reverend,
    I also love the way you are pretending that Bush (and Obama) want to kill U.S. citizens, as if that includes any and all U.S. citizens, rather than those few who have sided with the terrorists and are waging war against us. Could you be any more dishonest ? I doubt it.

  • larry d.

    I'm never offended, frank. If I were, I'd probably disappear for a few months from time to time before I could screw up the courage to come back and try again.

    If our constitutional rights and privileges extend to all persons, and the word citizen is used only in regard to presidential qualifications, why can't the Taliban vote in our elections?

  • The Reverend

    I direct your attention, commenters and readers, to King's last two comments.

    "I'm not sure what country you are living in, but in this one Congress authorized both the Afghanistan and Iraq wars….. I'm also trying to think of a time we declared war against a group of enemies that don't represent any particular country. I can't think of one."

    "I also love the way you are pretending that Bush (and Obama) want to kill U.S. citizens, as if that includes any and all U.S. citizens, rather than those few who have sided with the terrorists and are waging war against us."

    The first quote is misleading or dishonest. The U.S has not declared war. We did not declare war after 9-11….and we sure as hell did not declare war against Iraq. Both "conflicts" were ordered through a congressional authorization to use military force….to accomplish specific tasks. Round up or kill 9-11 perpetrators….and remove the Saddam regime from Iraq. King insists, wrongly, and after all the times I have disproven his labeling, that America is conducting two wars.

    In King's second quote…..you know, call me crazy…..King is agreeing that the president should have the ability to order the assassination of U.S. citizens…..here in the U.S. or in foreign countries…..and tells us not to be concerned about such a radical power becasue it's only meant for "a few."

    Before dispatching authorities to Waco and Ruby Ridge….Janet Reno did not give orders to assassinate anyone……unlike the president-can-order-the-assassination-of-U.S.-citizens policy, now embraced by two presidents and all neo-cons.

  • Jacquie

    *applauds* Exactly, Rev.

    It appears some of us are having trouble understanding the difference between a privilege and a right. Larry and you lie!, here's a hint: a right is something a being gets when it is human. As in, you know, 'human rights'. Look up the definition and why they are considered automatic. Therefore, all members of Homo sapiens have them by virtue of being part of the species Homo sapiens. A privilege is something we can give or take away. Ever have your parents 'take away your privileges'? Yeah, you never heard them say they would take away your rights, did you? Because they can't be taken, only violated.

    We are violating various rights of any Homo sapiens we have in custody and deny due process to. You lie!, as you have indicated, you seem to wish a return to a time when people's rights were routinely denied. It's lucky for all people, including you, that people are unlikely to let you have your way.

  • You lie!

    Jacquie,

    It appears some reading comprehension courses would do you good. I'm advocating that foreign terrorists should not enjoy the same Constitutional rights that you and I do.

    Lightweight.

  • frank

    Mr. You lie!,
    The basis for the problem is that 9/11 was a crime and conspiracy ostensibly ordered by Osama binLaden. All those captured who aided and abetted that crime should be charged in criminal court, just as the those who bombed the WTC in 93 and Timothy McVay. Those who are simply captured on the field of battle with no connection to 9/11 should face military justice.

    larry d.,
    The thought of you disappearing from these blogs for more than a few minutes, much less months, gave me a real chuckle. If it takes courage to post, then you are obviously the bravest of the brave, since you post more often than anyone else. But the fact that you equate these posts with some kind of mano a mano battle is very revealing. By the way, I believe the Constitution cedes to the individual states the management of elections. Coincidentally, all 50 states require citizenship to vote. So, if one is Taliban and an American citizen, one has the right to vote.

  • Jacquie

    Were you trying to communicate, you lie? I'm not sure why you simply repeated yourself. Try expressing a full thought.

  • Bubba

    King, the Barbary Pirates are one example of a group of people, not a country, which the United States waged war, or police action. I'm not sure if Congress declared war. This led to the "shores of Tripoli" in the Marine Corps Hymn.

  • larry d.

    I was simply responding to your stated worry that you had offended me, frank. I don't think it takes an inordinate amount of courage to anonymously post on a blog. It' more that it reveals an inordinate lack of integrity when a couple one-liners chase such a poster into hiding for months.

    In any case, you seem to be preoccupied with my posting habits, which I can only imagine stems from your own insecurities. Why else would it worry you so?

  • The Reverend

    Lively.

    It seems clear that some commenters on this thread do not agree with the Boumedienne ruling…re-instating habeas rights….the rights Bush-Cheney withdrew.

    How about it conservatives?…….Should all them big bad terr'rists have habeas rights?

    Once habeas is restored…..in the heads of conservatives….then, perhaps, the self-deception that we are "at war" can also be understood.

    The clustermess that Bush-Cheney orchestrated was….I know it may seem hard to believe at first….pre-meditated. From the time the Towers fell, Karl Rove began masterminding the re-election of the Great Warrior-Leader. Iraq, not some bumf*ck backwards country like Afghanistan, was the kind of rich country a truly Great War-President could sink his re-election teeth into.

    2001-2009…….the darkest period, so far, in American political leadership.

  • Da King

    Rev says, "….Janet Reno did not give orders to assassinate anyone."

    Oh, really ? You mean agents of the U.S. government shot the Weavers by accident ? They were, like, cleaning their guns and they accidentally misfired, inadvertently killing members of the Weaver family ? Those tanks accidentally attacked the Waco compound ? The gas pedals got stuck or something ? Perhaps they were Toyota tanks.

    Got it. The government killing women and children at Waco was hunky-dory, but killing terrorists in league with Al Qaeda against the U.S. is inexcusable.

    Do you libs put hallucinogens in your morning coffee, or what ?

  • frank

    larry d.,
    Wow! (again) Keep them comments coming! Each one seems to reveal more about your personal demons. I have explained more than once why I don't post more often, but if you wish to believe you are somehow chasing me away, go ahead, be my guest, whatever gets you through the day. It must take a lot of fantasy to keep that ego inflated.

  • The Reverend

    Hallucinogens in my morning coffee? I wish. Only way to deal with conservatives…sometimes.

    Once more….for, you know, reinforcement purposes.

    Reno did not order the execution of anyone at Waco or Ruby Ridge….unlike the new Bush-Obama policy where the president is permitted to order the assassination of a U.S. citizen no matter where that citizen is located.

  • Da King

    Okay, I'll bite. Who do you think ordered those tanks to attack Waco, which killed those women and children ??? Or maybe you think tanks knocking down buildings inhabited by women and children is a risk-free activity. Seriously, mushrooms, Ecstasy, or merely hydroponic ?

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