Virginia Democratic Senator Jim Webb on AG Eric Holder's announcement that five of the 9-11 plotters will be tried in New York federal court…..
Those who have committed acts of international terrorism are enemy combatants, just as certainly as the Japanese pilots who killed thousands of Americans at Pearl Harbor. It will be disruptive, costly, and potentially counterproductive to try them as criminals in our civilian courts.
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And we must be especially careful with any decisions to bring onto American soil any of those prisoners who remain a threat to our country but whose cases have been adjudged as inappropriate for trial at all. They do not belong in our country, they do not belong in our courts, and they do not belong in our prisons.
House representative Jim Moran (D-Va)….has a different take….
"They (Republicans, neo-cons, wingnuts) see this as an opportunity to demagogue," he said. "They will seize on any opportunity to do that, and that means they'll even take a stand that's un-American."
"It's un-American to hold anyone indefinitely without trial," Moran added. "It's against our principles as a nation."
"Opportunity to demagogue? Yep…like this….
Of all the mindless memes that non-reality-based adherents blare out like zombie pod people…..this one about "American soil" is the most ignorant. That's saying something….because the extreme right TeaBagger-FOX-Beck-Rush Group LLC….says a whole bunch of ignorant stuff on an hourly basis.
Giuliani is a discredited authoritarian moron, so it's easy to dismiss his grandstanding gibberish. But Rudy represents the FOX-BeckerHead position…so it will be the most prominent, because whatever FOX-Beckerheads spout is to be taken very Seriously by the Village. And, as the 9-12'ers and Rupert Murdoch have made clear, all wingnut-media decisions are for the purpose of "destroying Obama."
Remember, the only Job One there is for Republicans, Teabaggers, Drug Addicts on the Radio and myriad Wingnut Zoo Animals….is to bring about, as South Carolina cracker-senator Jim DeMint said…."Obama's Waterloo."
Now the analysis.
Senator Jim Webb is mistaken when he compares Japanese pilots during WW2 with 9-11 hijackers. Japanese pilots were operating under the authority of the Japanese Emperor. Japanese pilots during WW2 represented a country, a nation of people who declared war against America with the Pearl Harbor attack. WW2 was a war of nations. The militaries of the Axis powers were ordered by their nation's leaders to wage war on Allied nations.
9-11 Islamic hijackers represented who, exactly? A tiny international band of stateless anarchist criminals. No state or country sponsored the 9-11 hijackers. 9-11 hijackers did not act on the orders of a state dictator, politician, leader, or representative. Bin Laden's al-Qaeda carried out acts of violence for THEMSELVES….no one else.
Islamic extremists are seeking to make a symbolic "political statement" with their acts of violence. The entire point of killing others while killing yourself is to shock others into believing they are not safe. Japanese pilots who dropped bombs on Pearl Harbor were not making a "political statement"……they were beginning a monumental war of one nation against another. Japanese pilots were seeking to defeat the U.S. military, and thus America, the nation. Japanese pilots were not just trying to shock U.S citizens…..there was nothing symbolic about Pearl Harbor.
The second bit of "demagogic" nonsense-hype by American wingnuts only seeking Obama's demise by foolishly arguing we can't try 9-11 masterminds on "American soil"….is the, "they're too dangerous" to be housed in New York prisons…nonsense. There's no question the 9-11 plot was sinister and evil, but the five radical Islamic masterminds to be tried in New York federal court ain't squat compared to the most vicious, brutal, bloodthirsty deviants we currently have safely locked away in federal prisons, including, by the way, over 100 Islamic "terrorists."
To take the position that these five are too dangerous to bring onto "American soil" is, at best, a wingnut admission that America is weak, vulnerable, unsure of it's power and that the Constitution and set of laws which guide us are, somehow, deficient.
The final point I want to make is over the stupid claim that if we try 9-11 conspirators in New York…then New York will automatically become the focus of new terrorist attacks. Besides being another admission that America is just too weak or vulnerable to protect itself….this ignorant meme, meant only to diminish Obama's leadership, ignores the fact that America currently occupies two Muslim countries with some 200,000 U.S. soldiers. Daily, we are killing Afghani citizens. Also ignored is the fact that the American military has killed, at the very minimum, some 128,000 Iraqi citizens in our war of imperialistic aggression. 4 million Iraqis were displaced.
What more incentive would a Muslim crazy need to "focus" their extremist bile on the U.S.?
Here are the facts. George W. Bush, though he did not act on it, stated clearly that he would like to see Guantanomo closed. But Bush was a Republican president with very low approval ratings. In comes a popular Democratic President Obama who agrees with Bush's view of closing Guantanomo. If Obama succeeds in closing Guantanomo…..well, you know the wingnut drill….then America "fails."
The ignorant and disingenuous blatherings about not trying 9-11 conspirators on "American soil" is for the sole purpose of seeing Obama "fail."
Not that complicated.
{ 20 comments… read them below or add one }
Favorite part: "they see an opportunity to demagogue … they are unamerican."
That fellow's got the same gift for ironic namecalling as you do, Reverend.
So it's not unAmerican to hold people indefinitely witout a trial?
I, for one, listen to EVERYTHING Judy Rulianni says!
Maybe ole' Rudy could recommend another Homeland Security Chief……he did so well the last time.
The timing of this is all wrong. When the hostilities are over, then we should worry about the disposition of prisoners.
After the unconditional surrender, and only then, should we worry about how we would try prisoners and where.
Aside from prisoner exchanges, I am unaware of the US releasing prisoners before the war was over.
What war?
If one makes a mistake early on in solving a mathematical problem, it's difficult, if not impossible, to come up with the correct answer. That's where the U.S., foolishly, has postured itself with the problem of Islamic extremism. We allowed Bush/Cheney to persuade us into a false and dishonest framing in solving the 9-11 problem. Now, everything is all effed up and many American conservatives are hopelessly mired in rhetorical nonsense, not realizing the first step in solving our problem was totally incorrect.
There is no such thing as a "war on terror." It is an impossibility to declare war on a tactic. "War on terror" language was only and always a political strategy by the Terror Twins.
Attacking Afghanistan in some manner could not be avoided because it was Bin Laden's bunch, after all, who did the deed on 9-11. But Cheney neo-cons had no intention of doing anything to eliminate al-Qaeda extremists…..Afghanistan became a brief stopover until Iraq could be attacked and occupied…..which was the intent all along of the last administration.
Bush/Cheney never believed in their own "framing." Why conservatives still do…is beyond my comprehension.
We are not at war….therefore, there is no need to ignorantly argue over "prisoners of war." It's embarassing.
John Kerry had it right in 2004, and should have been elected president back then. Islamic extremist anarchists are an international law enforcement issue…and should be dealt with accordingly.
Rev,
Please excuse the language, but the insanity of thinking that these prisoners are so dangerous that they can not be held in our prisons got to me.
Osama Bin laden declared war on the US in August of 1996.
http://www.pbs.org/newshour/terrorism/international/fatwa_1996.html
I am sorry that you missed it. I am even sorrier that the government missed it.
9/11 awoke all of us with the exception of the most obtuse.
Now if you would like to take the position that Khalid Sheikh Mohammed is not part of Al-Qaeda organization, that is a different argument. It is still foolish, but a different argument.
Timothy McVeigh declared war on the U.S. government by bombing an FBI building in Oklahoma….was the U.S. government, then, at war with American militia and patriot groups?
Scott Roeder, among others, declared war on American abortion doctors who legally practice inside the U.S. When these anti-choice monsters commit terrorist acts against abortion doctors, is the U.S., then, at war with anti-choice groups?
If not, why not?
You know what I'm sorry about? In spite of the fact that Clinton took Bin Laden seriously and did his best to warn the incoming Bush administration about Bin Laden…..Cheney knew better…making Iraq America's number one foreign policy problem, while ignoring ALL warnings about al-Qaeda.
I'm sorry about that.
frank…no apologies necessary. We're living in extremely incoherent times. Using the word "insanity" is being overly kind.
You are correct, Reverand. Now that Obama is President the War on Terrorism has ended. He has made it clear that he will address the threat of terrorism with the tools of law enforcement, rather than the military. The decision to try KSM in federal court in Manhattan is consistent with this approach.
Whether this will "insure domestic tranquility" and "provide for the common defence", as Obama pledged when he took the oath of office is certainly debatable. Elections have consequences. If Obama is wrong in his approach to dealing with Islamic terrorists, those consequences will be visited upon us.
What would be the evidence that Obama's approach was the wrong one? Would ANY Islamic attack ANYWHERE demonstrate that Obama is wrong?
What I'm asking is, in the war criminal, Don Rumsfeld's words, what are the metrics?
I've said it before, libs just don't understand the difference between prosecuting a war and prosecuting criminals.
So whats your solution, besides bashing Bush, send a cop out to the camps in the Bekka Valley, or Tora Bora, and arrest the terrorists? How'd that work at Ft Hood?
Terrorism by its nature, does not stop because the victims roll over.
Just the opposite, every time a terrorist succeeds, and is not found and killed, they gain in power.
And contrary to your, and your foolish followers beliefs, Saddam Hussain, was a terrorist, a criminal, and a danger to the USA. After the first Gulf War, he did, have contact with Al qaeda, he supported and financed terrorism against the USA, he also changed Iraq from the secular nation, before the first Gulf War, to a much more muslim and fundamentalist nation after the war. Hussain and his government ignored and violated UN resolutions left and right, but you leftist want to ignore the facts, in order to revise your history. One of the WTC bombers returned to Iraq (at the behest of Jordan, who thought they could use him as a double agent).
In order to defeat terrorism, you must defeat the terrorist, and to defeat them, you must kill them, you can not negotiate with someone that is irrational. In order to prevent the terrorists from promulgating their lies and hatred, one must also bring freedom and truth to the people, but then again, freedom and truth are two things the left can not accept, even here in the USA.
Now that we have reduced everything to its most basic denominator—if you are disagree with Obama it is because you want him to fail, does it follow that if you agree with him it is because you want him to succeed?
Calling someone a cracker is racist. I thought we had moved beyond race with our new president but liberals just can't stop being racists.
Calling the 9/11 hijackers anarchists is just plain stupid. They were anything but anarchists.
Rev asks, "So it's not unAmerican to hold people indefinitely witout a trial?"
This is a false question. All five of the terrorists coming to New York for trial were already scheduled to be tried by military commissions.
Al Qaeda declared war against the USA in 1996. They've been trying to attack us and others for over a decade now. They think it's a war, whether you do or not.
And go ask the families of the 9/11 victims or other terrorist attacks if they think those attacks were "symbolic."
Hundreds of "terrorists" already have been tried, convicted..and are currently serving their sentences out in prisons on "U.S. soil."
Were all those cases done foolishly…or…is what neo-cons are suggesting now foolish?
It seems like American neo-cons are at war with America. Why?
You didn't respond to what I wrote. I'll take that as an admission that I'm correct.
And I'm pretty certain that "American neo-cons," as you call them, are at war with Al Qaeda, not America.
750 detainees were released after being held without charges.
That's not American.
American neo-cons…..are at war with America. I didn't stutter when I typed it before.
WTF ? What part of 'prisoners of war' don't you comprehend ?
First you complain that we are holding detainees indefinitely, and then you turn around and complain when we release them.
You're just a nutball.