Please watch the first few minutes of this clip from last night's Rachel Maddow program……
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There are those who would seek to convince me that the hatred, rage, violence. swastikas, death threats, hangings-in-effigy and brandishing of firearms recently in and around townhall meetings is simply a backlash to the Obama administration's attempt to extend health care services to most Americans.
Think about that for a moment.
All of this furor, the furor that whore-media is more than happy to plaster over all it's offerings, we're being told, has been created by a still-unfinished-proposal to help Americans obtain health care.
As I said yesterday, I do not accept that framing……it is, without doubt, dishonest.
Even though the wingnut chorus oftentimes sings in the key of incoherence, making it difficult to follow……the one "verse" most often repeated to justify all the whacked-out-winger craziness is government spending and the national debt.
Heres' why that excuse is not just flimsy, but isn't even worth the breath necessary to voice it:
It is a fact that under the leadership of George W. Bush the United States of America added more debt, borrowed more money, than all the other previous presidential administrations COMBINED.
When Bush took office, the national debt was $5.73 trillion. When he left, it was $10.7 trillion. That's a difference of $4.97 trillion,…Link
$5 trillion cash advanced during the Bush years……yet not one hate-filled demonstration or hysterical-rage protest with screamers and sign wavers warning of the end of the republic. Not one.
A doubling of the debt in 8 years while simultaneously handing out huge tax CUTS to America's wealthiest…..but, by god, not one protest, not one sign from conservatives calling Bush fiscally irresponsible.
Furthermore, all of Bush's borrowing didn't produce any positive results for Americans. Just the opposite. Employment, wage levels, buying power, pension values, all deteriorated. Deteriorated to the point where now we're in the worse recession of my 60 year lifetime.
Yet no conservative protests about any of it during the last 8 years. None.
Astonishingly, less than a year into a new, black, Democratic presidency, on the heels of an unfinished proposal to offer more and better health services to all Americans…..a plan that will be revenue neutral and not add to the national debt, at all…..and oh-so-fiscally-concerned conservatives are throwing a massive, hysterical sh*t fit.
It's all just so dishonest.
Now let me say something in regard to the Maddow clip and where I think we're headed…..
I think what we're witnessing is an extension of the Bush-Cheney years. What was consistent over the past eight years was the lawlessness and unaccountability of the Bushies. Conservatives will balk….but history wll bear that truth out. No other administration in American history has run up so much debt or been so lawless in their approach to governing.
And now that the Republicans are a tiny minority, the lawless tactics have filtered down to the same wingers who remained silent during the reckless debt accumulation years of George and Dick. That's why we're seeing the unruly mobs at Democratic representatives' townhalls…..not Republican townhalls. That's why we're seeing the guns, the swastikas, the nooses, the death threats. The wingers, following in the footsteps of their lawless and unaccountable heroes, are going to take the law into their own hands.
Tuesday in New Hampshire, outside of an Obama town hall meeting, a man stood with a loaded gun strapped on to his leg. Later, Chris Matthews interviewed him on MSNBC. The man said that his strapping on of that gun had nothing to do with health care reform…..he was just exercising his freedoms.
What he was really doing was setting the stage for Americans to become comfortable, accepting of, gun brandishing, thuggery, and violence as a response to the newly elected black Democratic president and his policy proposals. It's the same dynamic seen with the lawless wingers who are currently lifting up Dr. George Tiller's assassin, Scott Roeder, as a patriot, a role model.
I don't give a good goddamn what the New Hampshire laws are…..this man had no right….none….to carry a loaded gun anywhere in the proximity of the President of the United States. During the Bush years, middle aged women were arrested at gatherings for having a bumpersticker on their cars…..yet we're being prepped now to accept the idea of loaded guns at presidential townhalls?
It's insane.
The lawless mob-minded wingers will continue this month to bust-up Democratic townhall meetings. They will brandish more guns, hold up even more hateful signs and they will shout down or threaten any who challenge them. All of that will lead up to the corporate organized and sponsored 9/12 Tea Party gathering in Washington D.C……which is sure to be a spectacle of mass hysteria and hate.
Most likely, with all this "unrest", lawmakers will fold on health care reform, as many are doing right now…..and that will prove that lawlessness, thuggery, death threats, the brandishing of guns, and hate speech WORKS.
And, not uncoincidentally, that's exactly what the Bush and Cheney regime proved.
{ 46 comments… read them below or add one }
Once man's POTUS is another man's P.O.S.
You are probably right. Last night the woman protester who was interviewed on hardball said she was never interested in politics until Obama took over. So what does that mean ? She sat through 2 wars , never flinched ..spending through the roof, never did a thing. Obama took over and now she woke up? Why ? Fear from the unknown. Change from what they are used to ..a white man has always been President now we have a black man. Most likely they would react the same way if the president was a woman.
The 'fear factor' is pushed regularly on Fox, if that is the only so called news you hear everyday you are going to develop some fears. If you only listen to Rush , OReilly and Hannity , beck you are going to think we got some radical Muslim non American black man as President. You will become a parnoid wacko wing nut.
Andrea, I like that, a paranoid wacko wing nut. It`s pretty evident that many people are trying to scare others to death. F-E-A-R! It`s evident that fear has become a "theme" in politics since that mean, bad…bad…bad man has become President.
Rev you do have a short memory, I can think back to the protestors that wanted Bush and Cheyney locked up for being war criminals. Anyway why don't you do something productive, show the O'Reilly interview of Claire McCaskill (D – MO) from last night. It was very civil and they came to a great conclusion that I think most Americans would agree with. All that from a Senator that has been one of the most often attacked.
When it comes to the national debt, I think its a matter of throwing people into boiling water vs. turning the heat up slowly. Bush and the Democratic Congress turned up the heat slowly, leaving people uneasy, but with 'bigger things to worry about' like Iraq, protests on the national debt were very few and far between.
With Obama, Iraq is over, and now people have noticed the water around them is starting to bubble, and congress just turned up the gas to 11. 'Wingnut' movements come in two different varieties. The first is laughed at and ridiculed by the media, since most centrists disagree (ref. Sarah Palin). The second movement brings up some valid points, so although the majority of people won't take it to the extremes the movement began with, can still see the point in what they are saying. That is what's happening here. Blame the people who start the movement all you want, but its the people who listen who are the dangerous ones. Not everything they're saying is B.S., so people ARE listening.
After all, that's how Obama got elected, isn't it?
Also, a guy with a gun at a presidential function? I only see 2 reasons for that one – 1) The secret service hates Obama 2) He was obviously planted there with full knowledge of Obama. Secret service personnel are FAR too good at their jobs to allow that.
Nothing during the Bush administration comes anywhere close to the outright thuggery of the town hall disruptions. I monitored those 8 years very closely. Any and all Bush gatherings were filtered, scripted and screened so narrowly that people were removed for wearing tee-shirts with the "wrong" message on them. The Defense Department inflitrated anti-war pacifist groups like the Friends. Ari Flesicher, the White House spokeman, warned that people better watch what they say….and on and on I could go.
Additionally, the gun nuts are virtually all on the conservative side. Militias, concealed carry enthusiasts, those who strap on sidearms, etc.
Aaron raises some good points. If Obama would have had the gun toter removed….then the screechers would have reached wingnut boiling point temperatures….screaming that their rights were being trampled upon by the Obama tyrant. Obama opted to be conciliatory…..something that, I think, will only fuel the nutcases to act even more boldly in the future.
To Aaron's other point about some non-wingnut voters being concerned about spending…..while this is undoubtedly true….it is also undoubtedly true that Obama has pledged to make the health reform revenue neutral. If there are conservatives who are non-wingnutty, and are truly concerned about spending….they must not believe what Obama is saying about not adding to the deficit with his health reform plans.
It appears that independents, whoever they actually are, are balking at health care reform…..and that tells me that they are easily swayed by lies and misinformation. Health care reform should not be surprising to anyone. Obama campaigned rigorously on reforming heath care. Many independents and moderates voted for him because he promised to reform health care.
Steve brings up Claire McCaskill. Don't be fooled by ole' Claire. She's closer to being a Republican than a Democrat. I saw her yesterday on MSNBC, and she has no interest in a public option, the public option being a true progressive idea…..and the only issue that will bring real reform. Claire has voted with the neo-cons and the scaredy-cats for awhile now. Perhaps Missouri doesn't actually have any progressives in the state.
And Andrea and Fred are spot on with the "fear" angle. I guess it's the only idea Republicans have. Grassley's comment yesterday is a prime example of how low the GOP has sunk.
There is a level of meaness, or viciousness not seen in politics in a very long time. With guys like Beck, Limbaugh, and Hannity it`s no wonder it is at the level we see now. It seems that the right is afraid of the "social" word and or wants a Christian theocracy for the new government.
The only real thuggery I've seen at town halls are Obama's union goon squads roughing up old people. The ugliness comes straight from Dear Leader.
Larry, Are you serious? This is where the fear and viciousness come from. It`s people like you that give the term "insane" new meaning!!! You truly are an idiot!
Aaron, you may have something there. "He was obviously planted there with full knowledge of Obama. Secret service personnel are FAR too good at their jobs to allow that."
Rev says, "nothing during the Bush administration comes anywhere close to the outright thuggery of the town hall disruption"
LOL !!!! That is literally the dumbest thing I have ever heard in my entire life. You really have to stop watching MSNBC to get your "news." They are painting an entirely false picture of history for you.
How many worse examples of left-wing thuggery during the Bush admin do you want me to provide ? I already showed one on my blog. Apparently you closed your eyes at that part. I can provide TONS more examples.
Fred, don't forget Olbermann, Beck and Maddow. Don't be like the Rev and look at things with blinders on. There are "mean", "vicious" folks on both sides of the aisle. Newscasters, like government, are fine , as long as you keep the politics out of it.
Throughout my life when I have encountered people who behave like the teabaggers we see in the news clips have I just walked away from them in disgust. My view is that I do not want to legitimize anyone who chooses to make their point by "getting in my face" by giving them my ear. Civil discussion is fine but do not yell and scream and threaten me. Interestingly I suspect often times these obnoxious people would react the same way. I want to do the same thing here. Civil discussion will not change these people's minds. The simple fact that they have chosen to behave like this in a public setting tells me that they are beyond the point of being able to have a civil discourse and that they have already made up their minds for some reason whether it be racism, or frustration with their government or just plain ignorance or need of attention — all of which in my opion are lousy reasons for their behavior. Are there any people out there who are truly undecided — who when watching this fiasco do not go read and learn and question for themselves? I think we should begin to educate one another on the attributes of the proposed health care bills as they now exist and stop giving legitimacy to the thugs. Here is a link I think has some good information — granted from my perspective but it is a place to start learning and questioning. It is a place to start talking about what we want in a good health care system not what we do not want.
http://www.alternet.org/healthwellness/141916/10_awesome_things_that_would_happen_if_health_reform_passes/
"Awesome things that would happen if health reform passes."
Gee, thanks, mary. Was that article written by that 11-year-old plant who asked Obama a question in New Hampshire?
Steve: Can you admit to me that Beck`s skit per Nancy Pelosi was terrible. trust me, I`m not a Pelosi fan either….but, WOW! O`Reilly`s interview style? Bully pulpit!
Larry…….I really believe you`re PARANOID!
And before everyone starts jumping on me ask your self the question "are you satisfied with the health care system in the US? If you are why and if you are not why. Ask why 5 times about anything you think is good or bad about the system and by the time you get to the end of the "whys" you will have a pretty good idea about what is good and what is bad about the system. That is the beginning of the discussion. Yapping about the cost or who runs it or anything else is inappropriate until you define the system you want and get a grip in your own mind about how you would like it to work — along the way I guarantee you will also learn where you are willing to compromise. I know it is a lot of work and not nearly as much fun as ranting and raving and insulting others but it is a lot more productive. Some much energy is being expended in unproductive ways. I bet the CO2 content in the atmosphere has taken a spike and climate change is even more imminent because of all the CO2 laden hot air that is being expended.
larry it is more fun to just complain isn't it — Are you happy with the US health care system?
Great comments, mary.
larry must be having dreams where "union thugs" are busting up the buster-uppers. Sweet dreams….but, sigh, only dreams.
mary is quite correct here. Anti-reform nuts are behaving like unruly children in a candy store. You know, the ones who fall on the floor and scream and cry if they can't have what they want. They don't care what the adults want and will do ANYTHING to get that piece of candy.
mary,
I got a few sentences into that alternet article about the awesome things that would happen if health care passes when the writer declared it was false right-wing propaganda that the government would take over health care and drive the private insurers out of business in ObamaCare passed.
But President Obama openly said single-payer was his intention in 2003, and he said it again in 2007. So have several other Democrats. The "right-wing propaganda" came from OBAMA himself.
You better try again.
Fred,
larry's not paranoid. That 11-year old girl was a plant. She read a question provided by her mother, who works for Obama.
Steve and King are desperately-seeking-equivalency where none exists.
We are discussing today's health care "debate"….and the only people trying to shout-down democratic efforts to educate and communicate are the Palin-Tea Party-Townhall liars and deceivers. And they come from the extremely radical right.
Many of these crazies on the right were seen at work in the Schiavo debacle where oh-so-conservative-government-needs-to-stay-out-of-your-private-affairs radicals, backed by a GOP Congress and a GOP president, desperately tried to interfere with….wait for it….a private family's affair.
No credibility. None.
I've provided YouTube evidence of union thugs at town halls so I don't know why you'd say I'm dreaming, Reverend. The average right-wing thug I've seen evidence of seems to be a 75-year-old woman with blue hair.
And Rev, there still haven't been ANY townhall meetings that were "busted-up." I don't know why you keep saying that. Well, yes I do know why you're saying it (propaganda), but it isn't true.
Isn't it curious that the left, who have protested constantly throughout my entire lifetime, and now upset that the right is protesting something for once ? What a bunch of hypocrites y'all are.
King…no and no.
Obama said "if we were starting from scatch"….right? Once again, characterization is not fact. No matter how many times Obama states that "if you have insurance now, you can keep it"……deception artists will say that that means government is taking over all health coverage.
If it's not dishonesty you're peddling…..what would you call it?
King I said it was a place to start discussion and besides who cares. Is the most important thing to you what Obama said? Do the bills as they stand reflect exactly what Obama said? No, how they stand today reflects a lot of people's positions and not always a position that is in the best interests of the US. The point is if you cannot articulate what you want then how in the world can you recognize it when you see it and how in the world can you refute what you do not want. Lets assume it is very important to King not to have single payer. WHY? tell us. If we were all in a group someplace and we wanted to define what we do and do not want we would write everything that everyone did and did not want on a sticky note and stick it on a wall, Then in silence we would all go up and move the stickies into categories and yes some would make a career out of moving things back and forth. Then we would as a group name each category of the good and the bad and then we would as a group prioritize the categories. Each person can have all the civil discussion they want trying to defend their reason for the priority they place on something. You may not believe it but you will change your mind and everyone who is honestly trying to gather their thoughts into what we would like to have will eventually change their minds and eventually come to a consensus — I have seen it work many times — and then we could go forward and push for reform. Talk of how to pay for it or accomplish anything in it is the next phase. But like I said it is more fun, more unproductive, and less mentally challenging to argue isn't it?
…..and who cares that the left or the north or the south protested in the past? Every one is promoting gridlock rather than problem solving. What a waste of time!!
Rev…yes and yes.
Obama in 2003 – “I happen to be a proponent of a single payer universal health care program.” (applause) “I see no reason why the United States of America, the wealthiest country in the history of the world, spending 14 percent of its Gross National Product on health care cannot provide basic health insurance to everybody. And that’s what Jim is talking about when he says everybody in, nobody out. A single payer health care plan, a universal health care plan. And that’s what I’d like to see. But as all of you know, we may not get there immediately. Because first we have to take back the White House, we have to take back the Senate, and we have to take back the House.”
I call my "deception" – the facts. Obama is telling us that he wants single-payer, but it will take time to accomplish it ("we may not get there immediately"). Why he is saying something different at the moment should be obvious to anyone with a brain. Again, the alleged "right-wing progaganda" originated from Obama himself. The only deception comes in saying it didn't.
enough of wasting my time until tonight — I got a deck to treat and 7 acres to acres to mow. Bye for now
wow mary, did you just tell me it doesn't matter what the President of the United States says ? That it doesn't matter what his goal is ?
The rest of your post mostly seemed trivial.
If you want me to articulate what I want in health care reform, I'd be happy to do that, and I have articulated that, but it doesn't really matter what I want, because I don't run the country. Obama does, and that's why his words and deceptions matter. They matter a lot. If I disagree with him, I'm SUPPOSED to say so, as an American citizen. I'm not supposed to just sit back and accept whatever Big Brother tells me to accept, like I'm some kind of slave, happy to accept whatever my master grants me.
mary,
As a good liberal, don't you think you should give most of those 7 acres to someone less fortunate ? Greedy capitalist.
Sorry, couldn't help myself.
ahhhh break timd. King are you saying "What Obama wants obama gets" have you told him that. It is only trivial because you are not interested is solving the health care debate — you are only interested is driving people to post on your and Rev's blog so the ABJ remains happy with all the traffic coming to their site. That is why I quit posting on your blog quite a while back and last but not least I am more like a greedy farmer because I am heading out to mow the weeds in the pasture.
Fred, I agree with you on Beck, to me he is up there with the worst, and by the worst I mean Olbermann. I have an idea for a new show, put Beck on for 1/2 hour, the Olbermann for 1/2 hour and they can each give their unbiased opinions, then in the 3rd 1/2 hour they could debate each other. Sort of a more volitile Hannity and Colmes, no guests just these two. I'd watch that, but seperately I won't watch either.
Steve, that is great idea! Can you imagine all the carnage when those two get together? Great entertainment!
Steve, that is an awesome idea. I would watch that too, only because it always a good idea to bring a Tom Mix Pocket Knife to a gun fight.
Below is a good example of why comedians like Jon Stewart and Stephen Colbert are seen as news sources. Beck does realize that stuff he says actually gets recorded, right? When Beck was with CNN he railed against the horrors of the health care system he just faced. Today of course he is touting the U.S. Health care system:
"If only the ailing Glenn Beck 16 months ago had received the health care he's raving about today."
http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/thu-august-13-2009/glenn-beck-s-operation
While we are talking hypocrisy:
Remember the 2003 Medicare prescription drug bill, the one that passed with the votes of 204 GOP House members and 42 GOP Senators? Anyone want to guess what it provided funding for? Did you say counseling for end-of-life issues and care? Ding ding ding!!
Let's go to the bill text, shall we? "The covered services are: evaluating the beneficiary's need for pain and symptom management, including the individual's need for hospice care; counseling the beneficiary with respect to end-of-life issues and care options, and advising the beneficiary regarding advanced care planning." The only difference between the 2003 provision and the infamous Section 1233 that threatens the very future and moral sanctity of the Republic is that the first applied only to terminally ill patients. Section 1233 would expand funding so that people could voluntarily receive counseling before they become terminally ill.
So either Republicans were for death panels in 2003 before turning against them now–or they're lying about end-of-life counseling in order to frighten the bejeezus out of their fellow citizens and defeat health reform by any means necessary.
http://swampland.blogs.time.com/2009/08/13/oh-those-death-panels/
Gee, jimmie, I wonder which one it would be.
What Republicans are doing to Obama's health reform is 100% political. That's why they have not offered a plan of their own. They know what happened when FDR passed the New Deal. The New Deal gave Democrats an advantage as the party on the side of the people. True health care reform would do the same today.
That's why we're seeing the utter nonsense, hypocrisy and astroturfing.
King includes these words from Obama….."A single payer health care plan, a universal health care plan."
First….that was 2003……not 2009.
Second….Obama wasn't even in the Senate in 2003, let alone the White House.
Third…..Obama's 2003 statement doesn't negate what he said during the campaign nor what he has said this year about, "if we were starting from scratch…"
Fourth…..even in the 2003 statement, Obama uses two phrases….single payer health care plan and universal health care plan. Those are not the same in any way. While Obama has made it clear he wants a universal health care plan….he's also made it clear that he's not advocating for single payer.
And fifth….Obama's "we may not get there immediately" was couched in a sentence referencing taking back the Congress and presidency. You make it sound like those words were some secret conspiracy plot.
Finally….which brings me back to my original observation. You simply don't believe what Obama is saying and instead, prefer to believe he's covering for some dark conspiracy to eliminate private insurers and enslave all Americans.
And what mary said.
Sarah Palin was for that there "Death Panel" before she was against it As Gov., she declared April 16th 2008 to be "Health Care Decisions Day".
mary says, " you are only interested is driving people to post on your and Rev's blog so the ABJ remains happy with all the traffic coming to their site. That is why I quit posting on your blog quite a while back"
If that were true, why do you post on THIS blog, since it's the same thing ?
In reality, the ABJ has never given me a single word of direction about what I should or shouldn't write. All the credit or blame for my blog should be directed at me and only me. I haven't even checked to see what my blog traffic is since about February (but now that you mention it, maybe I'll drop ohio.com an e-mail and find out. I was doing pretty well last time I checked). I mostly just write about whatever hacks me off. Today it was the new FCC diversity czar who wants to kill conservative talk radio. What a Nazi.
Steve,
Beck and Olbermann on the same show together. You should be a programming director. It would be like ultimate slap fighting, only with politics. I imagine one of them would have an aneurism within a week.
Rev says, "What Republicans are doing to Obama's health reform is 100% political"
Nah, it's only about 50% political. The rest they actually believe.
Rev says, "Obama's "we may not get there immediately" was couched in a sentence referencing taking back the Congress and presidency. You make it sound like those words were some secret conspiracy plot.
I didn't say anything about a secret conspiracy plot. Obama was openly stating his desire for single-payer. There's nothing wrong with that. I just wish he'd be honest about it now.
Like I said….you think Obama is dishonest. I gave you a perfectly understandable explanation of the words you quoted from Obama….and you simply say Obama is dishonest…..because….well….just because.
I don't think he's dishonest, I don't think he knows what he's talking about.
I think that he's dishonest, that he doesn't know what he's talking about, and that in general he's a weenie. It's quite obvious when he bowls, bicycles or throws a baseball.
Sound basis for evaluation, that.