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Torturing Detainees Cost American Lives

by The Reverend on April 29, 2009

in Bush White House,executive powers,Iraq,rule of law,torture

Conservatives, arguing that Bush era torture crimes should not be investigated or prosecuted, have chosen to resort to a slogan in defending their position. Torture, "saved American lives". Therefore, the slogan implies, torture should not be prosecuted as a crime.

Not only is the slogan not factual, the truth is just the opposite of the slogan. The introduction, by the Bush White House, of barbaric torture techniques into the fight against Islamic extremists resulted in the deaths of many Americans. Because the Bush administration implemented a torture regime in Guantanomo, in Thailand, in Afghanistan, and finally in Iraq at the Abu Ghraib prison,…… because of that torture, many American soldiers are now dead.

Here's the evidence…..

"The reason why foreign fighters joined al-Qa'ida in Iraq was overwhelmingly because of abuses at Guantanamo and Abu Ghraib and not Islamic ideology," says Major Matthew Alexander, who personally conducted 300 interrogations of prisoners in Iraq.

Here's a man who walked the walk and is now telling the truth. Alexander didn't get his information from Fox and Rush, he didn't find it in The Dick's desk drawer……he got his information from "personally conduct(ing) 300 interrogations of prisoners in Iraq." Newt Gingrich interrogated zero prisoners in Iraq, Sean Hannity interviewed zero prisoners in Iraq, The Dick, himself, conducted zero interviews of prisoners,…..but Major Matthew Alexander conducted 300 interrogations of prisoners in Iraq.

Alexander says the reason foreign fighters came to Iraq was because of American torture. Those foreign fighters he interrogated, and many others not in prison at the time, were motivated to come and risk their lives in an attempt to kill American soldiers because Americans tortured Arab and Muslim prisoners. Those fighters, without doubt, were responsible for many American casualties inside Iraq.

What Major Alexander learned….

Before he started interrogating insurgent prisoners in Iraq, he had been told that they were highly ideological and committed to establishing an Islamic caliphate in Iraq, Major Alexander says.

Remember all the wingnut hype about an "Islamic caliphate"? Major Alexander had heard that propaganda too. He soon found out that is was only wingnut propaganda…..

In the case of foreign fighters – recruited mostly from Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Syria, Yemen and North Africa – the reason cited by the great majority for coming to Iraq was what they had heard of the torture in Guantanamo and Abu Ghraib. These abuses, not fundamentalist Islam, had provoked so many of the foreign fighters volunteering to become suicide bombers.

Major Alexander is not just any run-of-the-mill military interrogator. Without resorting to Bush's torture techniques, this is what he accomplished….

The objective of Major Alexander's team was to find Zarqawi, the Jordanian born leader of al-Qa'ida who built it into a fearsome organisation. Attempts by US military intelligence to locate him had failed despite three years of trying. Major Alexander was finally able to persuade one of Zarqawi's associates to give away his location because the associate had come to reject his methods, such as the mass slaughter of civilians.

From Major Alexander's account, we can draw two conclusions.

1) American soldiers were killed inside Iraq BECAUSE foreign fighters specifically came to Iraq to kill Americans after learning about the torture, by Americans, of Arab and Muslim captives at Guantanomo and Abu Ghraib.

2) Interrogating prisoners using non-Bush-torture techniques yielded the highest level target in Iraq, Zarqawi….considered the leader of al-Qaeda in Iraq.

Summary: Torturing detainees not only produced phony intelligence, worthless intelligence….but it also inspired many Arabs and Muslims to journey to Iraq for the express purpose of killing American soldiers.

The Bush program of torturing detainees, far from saving American lives, cost American lives. Truly useful information, you know, actionable intelligence, was gathered by non-torture, conventional interrogation methods.

Read Alexander Cockburn's larger take of Major Alexander's new book here.
___________

Brief comment on Arlen Specter. To me, Specter (R turned D-PA) is the GOP's version of Joe Lieberman. Specter, like Lieberman, has a one member constituency…himself. Fearing a GOP primary loss, Senator Specter jumped to the Democratic Party yesterday where his prospects for re-election are rosier.

Specter, as a Democrat, will be just like Specter, the Republican. His votes will be cast as they were before….primarily for Republican policies. His alleged filibuster-proof vote (after Franken is seated) will not be dependable. Specter will work, as a Democrat, to weaken Democratic policy initiatives.

The only value from yesterday's news about Specter was what he said about today's extremist and exclusive Republican Party. But that wasn't really news.

  • Da King

    Reverend, you are a trip. The USA invades Iraq, foreign fighters from other Middle Eastern countries stream in to fight us, as one would expect, and you attribute the whole thing to Abu Ghraib and waterboarding. Yes, I'm certain AL QAEDA IN IRAQ'S motivating factor was only that we mistreated prisoners at Abu Ghraib. It wasn't their already existing hate for the Great Satan, it wasn't because we supported the "pig state" of Israel, it wasn't Al Qaeda's STATED desire for an Islamic caliphate, it wasn't because of our presence in Saudi Arabia… it was only because of Abu Ghraib. You also ignore the divide between the Shiites and Sunnis that sparked so much violence, and which is based upon differing Islamic beliefs.

    Man, when you insult a person's intelligence, you go the whole nine yards.

    I wonder how you reconcile the fact that those foreign fighters were there BEFORE Abu Ghraib ever became publicly known in 2004.

    But at least now, maybe I can get you to finally acknowledge that publicly releasing the Abu Ghraib photos, the details of Gitmo interrogations, and photos like the one you featured on your blog yesterday, isn't such a good idea when our country is at war and our young men and women are still on the battlefield. Because liberals released ALL that information to the public, I guess you are saying that liberals caused the deaths of American soldiers too.

  • Bubba

    Following your line of thinking if the media had not reported on the abuses there would not have been any foreign fighters in Iraq. By the way, was this information obtained before or after waterboarding?

  • The Reverend

    King resorts to the very propaganda that Major Alexander was told BEFORE he began interrogating Iraqi prisoners. The same propaganda, or lies, that Alexander quickly found out were not, you know, altogether true.

    King's response to facts explaining how American soldiers lives were lost BECAUSE of American torture…..is to continue to argue that all we needed to do was keep the truth about our torturing, secret.

    Sorry, this is smug….and for no reason…

    ", I'm certain AL QAEDA IN IRAQ'S motivating factor was only that we mistreated prisoners at Abu Ghraib. "

    I didn't say that torture was the only motivating factor. The major didn't either. The Major said, based on hundreds of interrogations, that the reason given for coming to Iraq, was "overwhelmingly" the torture at Guantanomo and Abu Ghraib.

    King's argument is with the Major. King's argument is with inconvenient facts. King prefers the expertise of Cheney, Hannity and Rush…apparently.

    I suppose Major Alexander was simply insulting our intelligence when he explained what happened and why. The Major was probably a closeted Bush hater, huh?

    Bubba….the essence of the media's job description is to tell the truth to the American people. The abuses happened as a result of Bush administration orders, those abuses were crimes. Media reported on the crimes. Crimes do not fall under the umbrella of national security protection.

    Alexander's findings were after KSM and Zubaida were tortured. Bush's torture regime had moved to Iraq, witnessed in Abu Ghraib. And if you recall, the escalation of American soldier deaths in Iraq happened after torture was revealed.

    Bush committed the crimes….but I realize that defenders of torture will blame, not the crimes themselves, but those who reported on the crimes.

    Kind of like 'don't ask, don't tell.'

  • Bubba

    I guess that having time to organize had nothing to do with the increase in resistance in Iraq. By the way Rev, yes, if Bush is a criminal so was FDR. You get worked into a lather about 400 or so put into Guantanamo without charges yet it was perfectly acceptable for FDR to put 120,000 American citizens into concentration camps because of their race. Defend that!

  • averagejoe5

    Rev, Major Alexander is an interesting man. I read some passages from his book on some of the different sites. While I still believe that enhanced interogation techniques shouldn't be banned and have their place,(I do not believe that they give us 100% bad intel, they have proven to work in the past) I find his type of interogation very intriguing. I am a big fan of hypnosis and NLP, which he uses a lot. We use these types of relationship building and questioning techniques when selling our products. We are very successful. I can see how these techniques could be used with great success. However it all depends on the type of personality on which they are being used. Good stuff.

  • Andrea

    You torture apologists can argue and dispute findings and say its 's justified and you can argue on an on but I wonder why ? Why is it okay that we do what the evil do ?
    If we are the good guys, and I think we are , how can we go around the world expecting other countries to respect the rule of law when we don't practice what we preach?
    Wont it mean the terrorists have won if we have become just like them ?
    By the way the terrorists of 9/11 really couldn't care whether we would torture them or not, they committed suicide. And the terrorists today don't care either , it is the world who looks at us and is judging us and is frowning on us and hating us.

  • Da King

    Rev,
    Think about what you're saying here. You (or Alexander, take your pick) are saying that Al Qaeda In Iraq, a group that will randomly torture, kill, and maim innocent people, a group that will behead people, execute people for being homosexual, flog people for infidelity, beat women for going to school, beat women even for being raped, a group that perfectly fine with so-called honor killings, etc., etc., etc,… are the very same people who are going to be so offended by Abu Ghraib that they fly across the border in righteous indignation to kill us.

    Come on, now. That's like the Marquis De Sade objecting to a little S&M.

    And just for the record, I thought our actions in Abu Ghraib were a disgrace, much different than what we did with KSM and Zubaydah, which was done for legitimate national security reasons.

  • Da King

    And since Bubba brought up FDR's concentration camps, let me remind everyone of the guy who STARTED the CIA rendition program, where terrorist suspects were sent to countries that didn't mind using torture to extract information. That guy was Bill Clinton. When are we going to charge him with a crime ?

  • I believe what I read

    the title of your latest rant is comical…

    I think you have it 1/2 right…it should read:

    Torturing Detainees Cost American Lives; Not "Torturing" Cost More

  • Quidpro

    The Reverand has repeatedly taken the position that the use of enhanced interrogation techniques did not lead to the disclosure of truthful or useful information. Yet, he apparently accepts the statements elicited by Major Alexander, using "less-enhanced" techniques, at face value. If Al-Qaeda terrorists have been trained to resist giving useful information even if "tortured", then why would the Reverand believe that the information obtained by Major Alexander was truthful? Is it not more probable that the information the terrorrists disclosed to Major Alexander was consistent with their propaganda and disinformation aims?

  • Andrea

    "enhanced interrogation " is a English translation of the Gestapo euphemism "verschaerfte Vernehmung" which was the code word for torture in the Third Reich.
    "The use of "third degree interrogation" techniques in order to compel confession, ranging from "psychological duress such as prolonged confinement to extreme violence and torture", was widespread in early American policing. Lassiter classified the water cure as "orchestrated physical abuse",[85] and described the police technique as a "modern day variation of the method of water torture that was popular during the Middle Ages". The technique employed by the police involved either holding the head in water until almost drowning, or laying on the back and forcing water into the mouth or nostrils.[85] Such techniques were classified as "'covert' third degree torture" since they left no signs of physical abuse, and became popular after 1910 when the direct application of physical violence in order to force a confession became a media issue and some courts began to deny obviously compelled confessions.[86] The publication of this information in 1931 as part of the Wickersham Commission's "Report on Lawlessness in Law Enforcement" led to a decline in the use of third degree police interrogation techniques in the 1930s and 1940s.[86]

    In 1983 Texas sheriff James Parker and three of his deputies were convicted for conspiring to force confessions. The complaint said they "subject prisoners to a suffocating water torture ordeal in order to coerce confessions. This generally included the placement of a towel over the nose and mouth of the prisoner and the pouring of water in the towel until the prisoner began to move, jerk, or otherwise indicate that he was suffocating and/or drowning".[71] The sheriff was sentenced to ten years in prison, and the deputies to four years.[71][78]"

  • averagejoe5

    Andrea, do you think techniques like that are ever called for? After 9-11 when the towers were hit and we were getting threats by the 1000's each day and we had the top guys in AL Kaida and they promised that they were going to attack us again and kill maybe thousands or even millions more Americans. Do we do what we gotta do or do we let them go through with their plans? Remember, these aren't grunts, these are the leaders and the architectst of the attacks. Talking to them and trying to convince them to give up secrets given to them by Allah is going to give them the time they need to pull off their next attack? What if you knew they were going to attack your town or the town your parents, your siblings or your kids live in or are visiting?

  • mary

    Yap yap yao What if what if what if. There are laws against torture. Find out the facts and change the damn laws and treaties if they need to be changed but PLEASE get off this topic with this group. All the torture apologists just keep yapping and yapping and yapping. It will do no good to talk to them. They are stuck in their own little rut for whatever reason and there they will stay no matter what AND I am not going to change my opinion — let the legal system work.

  • The Reverend

    Quidpro….

    Zarqawi is now dead. He was killed because Major Alexander used conventionall non-torture methods to obtain information about him from a prisoner. That, to me, is pretty convincing evidence that Alexander didn't just get propaganda and misinformation from his torture-less interrogations.

    King's argument…..the terrorists are bad people, and because of that, they don't deserve to be treated as humans. Because others are wicked, we are entitled to act wickedly also.

    Our laws and Constitution do not allow for any of that kind of behavior…AND…an eye for an eye makes the whole world blind.

    Thanks Andrea.

    mary…I want to change the topic but details keep emerging….witness Condi's self-implicating comment yesterday about "if the president does something, by definition, that means it's legal."

  • averagejoe5

    mary are you trying to censor us?

  • frank

    Andrea's post of yesterday brings up a point that seldom gets enough attention. Our country constantly touts itself as "the good guys". We claim that capitalism and democracy are the routes to justice and security for nations and personal fulfillment for individuals. But during the Cold War, we routinely adopted the methods of our adversary and have even continued them despite the dissolution of the Soviet Union. I doubt the Iranians have forgotten how we overthrew their democratically elected government and supported the Shah, a tyrant. I doubt that the Guatamalans have forgotten that we overthrew Arbenz. I doubt that the Chileans have forgotten US involvement in Pinochet's coup. I could go on and on, of course. But my point is that state sanctioned torture is another abomination that gives lie to the myth of American exceptionalism. Much of the rest of the world hates us and most in this country don't know why. The reason is that they hate us for our hypocrisy.

  • The Reverend

    So true.

  • averagejoe5

    Yeah we are the bad guys. Let us bow are heads in shame. Please spit on us.

    Are you kidding me? We give more, we produced more, we fed more, clothed more foreign countries than any other in history. We have fought more wars and sacrificed soldiers with one hand tied behind our backs protecting and saving people from militant governments that were murdering or keeping thier people in starvation mode than any other country in the world. We have brought more prosperity to other countries than any other country in the history. We have invented and discovered more viable medical techniques and medicines that we donated to countries on our dime than any other country in history.We have come to the rescue during natural disasters than any other country in history, going as far as offering Iran help when they needed it even though they were sworn enemies of the US. We have created more millionaires from people who started with nothing than any other country in history. This is a beginning list.
    If you want to villanize America, take a look at the good stuff we've done.
    Come on be real. You are living in the greatest country in history, the libs just haven't learned to appreciate it and it's easier to bitch about the few bad things than praise the greatness.

  • The Reverend

    I think that you are more than correct about the good things America has done. More things could be added to the list. No question about it.

    And frank is also correct.

    Both sides of the issue are correct. America does good, America does bad. The incorrect position, I think, is denying one or the other. The left accepts both. When "America does bad" is rejected….an unhealthy American exceptionalism develops. That's kind of where we are right now.

  • frank

    averagejoe5,
    My bad. I failed to say that I was talking about our government, not the people. I wholeheartedly agree about the contributions our people have made. Even the government sometimes does the right thing.

    But our government has also killed more people in our name than any other in the last 50 years. We have sold or given away more weaponry and more destructive weaponry than anyone else. We have staged or supported more coups than anyone else. In short, our government has given an enormous number of people many reasons to wish ill of us. All in our name.

    We have so many enemies out there that we spend more than the rest of the world combined trying to stay safe, yet cannot secure our own borders. Our Department of Defense manages over 200 golf courses on our 700+ foreign bases, while cheating wounded vets.

    And I don't believe I'm living in the greatest country in history. I have lived in the greatest country in history and it was the USA circa the early 60's. The American Dream was still alive then. It died along with JFK in 1963.

  • The Reverend

    True again, frank…and thanks.

  • larry d.

    "But our government has also killed more people in our name than any other in the last 50 years. We have sold or given away more weaponry and more destructive weaponry than anyone else. We have staged or supported more coups than anyone else. In short, our government has given an enormous number of people many reasons to wish ill of us. All in our name."

    Do you have any numbers, frank, or are you just repeating it because it sounded good in some Hollywood actor's latest HuffPost diatribe?

  • frank

    larry d.,
    I've never gone to Huffington Post. No, I don't have numbers, but do you dispute anything in that paragraph? If you do, please tell us which countries exceed us in those areas.

  • averagejoe5

    How about Iraq. Somalia, China, Afghanistan who all have killed millions of their own residents who back opposing parties.

    Now if you ad in the number of citzens we killed in the name of AMerican Womens right, Abortion. You are right.

  • frank

    averagejoe5,
    None of those countries outdoes the US. Iraq is actually a "fake" country, cobbled together by the British after WWI who chose to join three disparate groups in hopes that they would be so busy fighting each other they wouldn't notice the British taking their oil. As to Sadaam Hussein, he was our bastard. He wouldn't have gained control without the help of the CIA. We not only helped him acquire the technology for chemical and biological weapons, we provided him with the tactical information to use them during the Iran-Iraq war.

    Don't know much about Somalia, but we are underwriting China's rise through our trade policies and lack of fiscal integrity. In Afghanistan, we cynically used the Afghanis in a proxy war with the Soviet Union and then left when the Soviets did. So I guess we've pissed off all of them too.

    But, my point is, that we keep intervening in other countries, for reasons whether justified or not. For some reason though, we are surprised when people want revenge. If there were another country that took measures on us as we do with other countries, we would find that situation intolerable. It only makes sense that other people find the actions intolerable too.

  • The Reverend

    Complete understanding requires more than just one's own point of view.

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