Obama, Faith-Basing & Rick Warren

How dare you? At the most Holy time of year. To degrade our most sanctified institutions during the most sacred time of year for the Christians, Hindus, Muslims, Jews, Navajos, and Hindus! Why do you insist on defiling those of us that posses Spirituality?
This is exactly the sort of situation that requires a bailout from the government. Why support the feds financial truss-work of AIG and GM but not JC?
Your type frustrate those of us that know the intentions of The Founding Fathers (guided by Our Lord God's Hand). We are on the verge of an evolution to the way things are destined to be.
You may detest the free choice given to you. But, the rest of America is tumbling to the merger of government and God.
It can't be stopped.
You will be assimilated.

I can't tell if Halifax is being sarcastic.

Rev, the real progressives haven't been giving Obama problems with his choice of the person delivering the invocation, it is that far left wing faction and the media, like your friends at MSNBC wanting to stir up problems.

I admire Obama's use of people with opposing viewpoints. Does having Obama as our president mean that the Christians now have no president or government representation? You are talking about freedom of religion, isn't bowing down to the far left just as anti-constitutional?

Here are some facts. Faith based charities, especially Christain and Catholic, give more cash and "FREE" volunteers to more charities and causes than any other organization in the world. They have been proven to be the most efficient way to get money and services to the poor and needy. Who were the first people in Katrina. Not even their own mayor or governor was organized to help the people. The ones that had the food kitchens open and the ones helping people find shelter and giving blankets and other needs were the Faith based charities. Why? Becuase they care about people. That is why they are against the murder of the unborn.

As far as the gay marriage thing, Christian groups are being blamed but it is more than them. They are the scapegoats, just as Bush has been for the last 8 years. The people of California have spoken. If gays want to marriage, move to Vermont or Mass or even up the coast to Oregon. These places love and accept homosexuality with open arms.

It could also be that Obama realizes he needs all the help he can get. He is probably thinking he can't do all of the stuff he'd been promising and he feels he needs some divine intervention, so he better get on the right side.

The putting away of childish things? This needs to begin with looking in the mirror and placing blame where it belongs and to stop trying to blame all of our woes on Bush and Cheny. Until we place the blame squarely where it belongs our nation will continue to flounder like a falling kite.

Halifax Express.

So how do you know the "intentions of The Founding Fathers?" I guess you just "know" it because the facts are that of course many early Americans did practice Christianity, but so also did many believe in deistic philosophy. Indeed, most of our influential Founding Fathers, although they respected the rights of other religionists, held to deism and Freemasonry tenets rather than to Christianity. The United States Constitution serves as the law of the land for America and indicates the intent of our Founding Fathers. The Constitution forms a secular document, and nowhere does it appeal to God, Christianity, Jesus, or any supreme being. Believe what you want but base your beliefs on facts and not on what you have been told. Many Christians just plain accept others ideas on faith and not fact. Question and investigate what you are presented with because if anyone or anything is assimilated it will be because of lack of facts and truth.

Oh, and another childish thing we can put aside is this global warming thing. We have no control over the earth or it's climates or the solar systems changes and shifts.

Seems like God and mother nature are really shoving this in the faces of the ones wanting to rip off the American people by claiming CO2 is a pollutant and that the planet is warming.

"Most of our influential founding fathers … held to deism and Freemasonry tenants rather than to Christianity."

I know you like to do your research Mary but The DeVinci Code is a work of fiction.

"Here are some facts. Faith based charities, especially Christain and Catholic, give more cash and "FREE" volunteers to more charities and causes than any other organization in the world. "

Averagejoe,

Catholic IS Christian… just sayin'

Ah, Joe. You are correct that global warming is not in our control, it is in His control. The warming is produced through centuries of sin and vice. The chickens have just come home to roost.
If we allow gays to marry, it will bring the end-times. The planet will turn to a fireball. The rapture, of course, will take-up the righteous of us, the rest will have to burn for their sins and those of their fathers.
I'm sorry to scare so many of you with my Truth.

mary, of course, is quite correct about our Founders and deism. They founded America….but today they would be regarded as, you know, anti-American.

I think Halifax might be on to something….or on something….I can't tell which. Americans, especially, are having way too much sex…obviously because they don't love god, who is still virginal. All that sex is heating up the ozone, and leading to, for example, the submersion of Key West. That proves that god hates gays and lesbians.

So keep burning fossil fuels and stop having sex…..and everything will be just fine.

Well….fine….until god sends the fire and brimstone because of the gays. God said he wouldn't drown us again like in Noah's day…but he didn't say anything about a little waterboarding first before the divine fireball accompanying his final return.

The ultimate question for believers is whether we should try to stop global warming before god burns everything up.

No, mary isn't right, Reverend. Of course it was the Age of Reason and deistic thought was a general cultural phenomenon at that time but to claim the majority of the Founding Fathers weren't Christians is quite inaccurate.

There were ultimately five dominant and guiding spirits behind the Constitution – Washington, Franklin, Randolph, Jefferson and John Adams. Of these, Washington, Franklin, and Randolph were Freemasons. Adams held opinions that were virtually identical to those of the three Freemasons although he was not considered an active Freemason.

"a general cultural phenomenon"

Deistic thought, is thought that allows for a god, but not one who is involved with human life. By implication, that means no belief in supernaturalism. No miracles, virgin birth, resurrection from the dead, etc. Hardly Christian.

Now I suppose you could call those who allow for a god but who, at the same time, rejected myths and favored, instead, science….were part of a "general cultural phenomenon".

However, I would call that the culture of a modern world, as opposed to the culture of supernaturalistic-based religion from a time long past. There again, hardly a phenomenon.

I've been reading a little about Lincoln and his belief or non-belief. I actually believe that very few earlier American presidents could win office now. Not fundamentalist enough.

average, did you change numbers on me?

This…

"Does having Obama as our president mean that the Christians now have no president or government representation? You are talking about freedom of religion, isn't bowing down to the far left just as anti-constitutional?"

Obama is the president of all Americans. Americans who are Christian, therefore, also have Obama as their president. That doesn't equate into Christians having their way, just as it wouldn't be right for the worshippers of the Flying Spaghetti Monster God to have their way.

And the reason why neither can have their way is because government has no right to establish religion.

In this particular situation, with Rick Warren, we're not only being asked to accept government chumminess with religion, but we're also being asked to be tolerant of an intolerant representative of evangelical Christianity. As if being tolerant of intolerance is going to make the intolerant less so. Think about that.

Rev, yeah, had to re-register because I couldn't log in.

Warren is saying a prayer not introducing legislation nor is he being placed in a cabinet position. Would it have been in bad taste if Warren would have said: "I wouldn't pray for this baby murdering, racist, muslim, Al Gore believing man if you paid me." Wouldn't there be just as much if not more heat? I believe that the press and the media leaders and the special interest leaders are reading into this too much. They need to back off. Especially the idiot gloom and doom team at MSNBC. (have you noticed Joe in the morning is back to his conservative self now that Obama has won the election and MSNBC probably isn't threatening him with his job)

Wasn't it the Godfather that said to: "keep your friends close and your enemies closer"? I feel this is what Obama is doing. Conservative Christianity is coming to an end. Our Govt and the press have villanized and made faith in God, especially Christianity taboo. Making people with faith out to be freaks, airheads and believers of unicorns. Obama is trying to convert abortion and gay liberal compassionate Christians to his side. He is treating them like poor people on welfare. He is giving them just enough cheese to satisfy them with one hand while really holding them down by the neck with the other. Chicago politics.

Most of you have missed the operative word in my first post and that is — influential. Yes more christians signed the Declaration of Independence and other documents than other religions but the most influential founding fathers had a very high percentage of deists and freemasons. I was amazed to learn this on one of my visits to Colonial Williamsburg but that is where I first learned it and I have since read enough to believe it although anything about American history out of Colonial Williamsburg is usually not suspect.

mary,
You seem to be calling Freemasonry a religion unto itself. I don't think that is accurate. One can be a Freemason and also a Christian, or a Freemason and also a non-Christian.

Rev, I would hope that the founding fathers would be call un-American now, since they accepted slavery and considered a black man to be 3/5 of a white man. Not quite "Modern Thinking" is it?

As a gay male, I am torn on the issue of Rick Warren delivering the inaugural invocation. I strongly believe in tolerance and diversity of opinions. I like Obama’s approach to the inauguration. He is making it an event for all Americans. I would support an evangelical pastor delivering the invocation. I am just unsure of Rick Warren.

He has indeed supported many good ministries through his congregation. He however possesses an antiquated view of same sex marriage comparing it with bestiality and incest. Psychologists have long ago dismissed this. I question Obama’s wisdom in allowing a person with these beliefs to share the stage.

Avergejoe says “the voters have spoken”. He obviously believes that civil rights are to be granted or taken away by the majority at their will. I believe our founding fathers intended civil rights to be protected by the government blind of religious beliefs. Justice is indeed meant to be blind in this country. If the government bestows benefits based on marriage, then partnered gay people should be able to enjoy the same benefits. Our government has indeed declared that that the benefits of marriage are indeed civil rights. It is our duty as citizens to assure that all enjoy these benefits regardless of religion, sexuality, race, disability and so forth.

Tom – I don't believe that civil rights are to be granted or taken away by the majority. My point is, this is how they apparently decided to handle it. Our govt officials do this when it is convenient to them and they do not want to take the heat or ruin their careers for exposing their true opinions. Also, I feel that Christians get the blame and are demonized far to often for many decisions that our reps and judicial system should handle. (It reminds me of how eveyone blames Bush for all of our counrties problems when it isn't true.)(other examples they blamed Christians for preventing gambling and smoking in Ohio). (Here is why I am against the public voting on civil rights. I know rednecks that would have blacks ride in the back of the bus. I also know blacks and whites that would want to hurt gays just because they were gay. I sure as hell wouldn't want people like these to determine my freedom or yours. Is the general public educated enough to make these decisions, absolutley not. I wouldn't want my freedom determined by someones opinion of me). What most don't recognize is that 99% of Christians do not want to condemn or take away your rights as an American. I for one being a hetero Christian male could care less how people get their orgasms nor do I feel it is right to with hold benefits in a same sex relationship if a commited union has been formed. (I do have a problem withs gays adopting children because no matter how loving the parents are there are psycological compnents of a male and female personality that must be combined to raise a balanced child.)
However overall, I say live and let live. We all have our problems and challenges and we are here far to short of a time to be judged by others all of our lives or to live in guilt. Also I believe that you take a chance of some great life experieinces if you judge people by things that bother you about them.

King you are correct but there is a long list of Christian churches that do not allow a member of the church to be a Freemason. Here is a quick list I found on the internet — I am not going to confirm all of them but I know for a fact several of them will not allow a member to also be a Freemason. When I was a kid I had to walk past the Masonic Lodge on the way to catechism and church and choir practice and my parents acted like I might be kidnapped if I did not cross the street so I did not walk in front of the Lodge. When I got older(16 or so) I asked myself "what is so bad about the Masons." I decided they were not so bad but the parish priest said they were bad so therefore they must be bad. He said I had to quit one of my regular babysitting jobs because he knew they were Masons. Of course the same priest called my parents once to tell them he saw me going to the movie theatre across the green and the movie was about a prostitute — I guess he forgot to check the Catholic Universe Bulletin movie rating guide because they said it was ok for any Catholic to see it. It did not make any difference — I still got grounded.

Methodist Church of England
Wesleyan Methodist Church
Russian Orthodox Church
Assemblies of God
Church of the Nazarene
Orthodox Presbyterian Church
Reformed Presbyterian Church
Evangelical Mennonite Church
Church of Scotland
Grace Brethren
Roman Catholic Church

Christian Reformed Church in America
*

Synod Anglican Church of England
*

Free Church of Scotland
*

General Association of Regular Baptist Churches
*

Independent Fundamentalist Churches of America
*

The Evangelical Lutheran Synod
*

Baptist Union of Scotland
*

Lutheran Church Missouri Synod
*

Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod
*

Presbyterian Church in America

I think you're above….. average….on this one…

"Obama is trying to convert abortion and gay liberal compassionate Christians to his side."

Obama said it was time to change the way we do politics. What he means is the politics of demonizing those we disagree with. And I think you're right about the strategy, and he will win more and more moderate and conservative Christians to his side with that strategy.

Bubba: You got me…

"I would hope that the founding fathers would be call un-American now, since they accepted slavery and considered a black man to be 3/5 of a white man. Not quite "Modern Thinking" is it?"

Exactly right. When I wrote that few early presidents could get elected I was basing it on religious beliefs….but you're right aout the slave and civil rights stuff, women voting rights….yep.

average got his 5 back…cool

This….

"(I do have a problem withs gays adopting children because no matter how loving the parents are there are psycological compnents of a male and female personality that must be combined to raise a balanced child.)"

There may be some truth in what you say, although I believe the important factor is that a child has interaction with both male and female mentors, through extended family members, teachers, neighbors, etc.

And if what you're saying is true….what does that say about children of single mothers? Would you extend your critique to say that children of single mothers are only exposed to one gender…and are therefore, missing critical psychological components in their development?

Maybe mary will do the research.

Good stuff in your comment.

tomb:

Thanks for the comment.

Surely, Obama and his people knew what they were doing by inviting Warren.

That being the case….the message to Obama supporters is: be tolerant of those who are intolerant. That, of course, won't work in leading our country in a progressive direction.

Having said that….I think Obama is doing to evangelical Christians what Reagan soldiers have been doing to evangelical Christians for 30 years. Talking the evangelical code language, being civil to some of their leaders, attending functions with them….and then ignoring their theo-con lobbying efforts.

But as I mentioned in the post. This specific incident would not have happened, if religion, no matter how symbolic, was kept separate from government….as intended by the founders.

mary: Good stuff on the Masons.

Growing up, Masons were the secret people. You know, don't know what those people are doing in secret in there.

Your list looks like quite a few Christian denominations don't mix well with those secret people.

Avg Joe, I spprerciate your thoughts on the protection of civil rights in this nation. We agree that they have no business being on the ballot. I do feel that "christians" and not Christians need to be called on their actions. The small "c" ones just go through the motions of being Christian but do not practice what they preach. They enjoyed 8 years in their "promised land". Now they must retreat into the Texas desert. I also feel that Obama knows the importance of reaching out to fiscally conservative but socially liberal Christians. Rick Waren has sold the books that they love. He was a natural choice for an enticement. It is true that we all should have a place at the table. The good news is in our young adults and youth. In surveys they are overwhelmingly strong allies of GLBT people. In another 30 years this debate and these ballot initiatives will appear like 1950s race laws.

Reverend I wonder when your history book on Lincoln was written. These histories tell future scholars much more about the time in which the book was actually written than about the subject era of the book.

Same with the deism. As you point out, these weren't modern evangelicals who necessarily believed in a personal relationship with Christ. I'm not sure they all even believed in personal relationships with their human fathers. So deistic thought probably shouldn't be seen as dichotomous to christianity at that time.

But more than that deism was an extension of a new way to think about the world as they tried to apply reason to everything. I've read some Ben Franklin writings having to do with living a healthy life; it was a quite scientific and modern-sounding regimen. Does that mean he was a health nut? Not really.

Fair enough…and no, it doesn't mean that Franklin was a health nut.

"a new way to think about the world as they tried to apply reason to everything."

I agree with this, modern evangelicals do not. Or if they do, the early "new way" governmental leaders were simply mistaken or didn't have enough faith.

On topic….did you see that the Pope is reviewing the 'used to be an infidel' Galileo account? It takes quite awile for religion to accept any 'new way'. Religion is usually last to accept the obvious.

Long live the new way.

Maybe Warren will pull out now that he's seen The One parading his man teats in an effort to bring our gay citizens back into the fold.

Funny stuff.

You're the one commenter who just might be crazier than I am…..might.

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