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Questions About Gay Marriage Rights

by The Reverend on November 10, 2008

in choice,intolerance,moral values,religion

By a margin of 500,000 votes, the state of California's voters amended their state constitution last week to take away marriage rights for gays and lesbians. The California Supreme Court, by a 4-3 vote, had ruled in May 2008 that any statute that limited marriage to a relationship between a man and a woman violated the equal protection clause of California's Constitution.

Those opposed to gay marriage then set out to amend California's Constitution with Proposition 8 restricting marriage to a union between a man and a woman. By a 52.3%-47.7% margin, gay marriage opponents were successful. In so doing, California voters targeted a specific demographic group in the state to be outside of the parameters of equal protection under law.

That, in itself, is remarkable.

For the sake of discussion, and realizing that this is a very controversial topic….I would like to set forward some ideas and suggestions on how this argument can be settled.

The problem is not with gays seeking equal status with straights, something that should be a given. The problem is the existing blurred lines concerning marriage, itself.

Most marriages are done the way I used to do them in the early 80's. A couple, seeking marriage, would obtain a marriage license from their county. A verification document would be given to the person conducting the marriage ceremony. I would sign that document and submit it to Columbus for the permanent record. Unless that document was signed and sent in, the marriage agreement was not complete.

In other words, ministers, priests, pastors and Reverends, are acting as agents of the State. Acknowledged, licensed religious clergy are indispensable agents of the State when it comes to marriage. Yes, a couple may elect to be "married" by a judge, a constable, or justice of the peace….but primarily, marriages are conducted by clergy.

Why is this the case?

The U.S. Constitution, in the 1st amendment, prohibits government from making a law respecting an establishment of religion. When clergy play such an integral part of marriage, acting as the primary agents of the State in validating marriages…..isn't the State violating that 1st amendment? Hasn't the State structured it's legal system of marriage through a law establishing religion, or, at the very least, religious clergy?

Now I recognize that all manner of clergy are licensed by the State……not one specific group or denomination is given pastoral marriage validation rights. However, why should any religious cleric need to play an indispensable role in conjunction with the State? Isn't that blurring the lines between the power of the church and the power of the State?

I would suggest that the first issue in the debate about gay marriage rights that needs examined and possibly reformed is the role of religious clergy in the marriage contract. All that marriage is….is a legal contract. Naturally, to cover my backside, I admit that marriage is much more than just that….but when it comes to the interest of the State….it is only a legal contract.

So here's my recommendation….for the sake of getting the discussion started….

Couples (for now), wanting to enter into the civil contract of marriage, should be able to accomplish that entirely through governmental channels. It matters not to me what that contract is called. Domestic partnerships, civil unions…whatever. Couples should be able to apply for this contract and complete that contract at a courthouse or similar governmental department. The State's interest in this contract should never rely on religious clergy validation….as if it were a faith-based initiative.

Those couples who desire a clerical or religious "marriage" are free to do so AFTER they have completed the required legalities of the State.

One of the reasons why we find ourselves in contention over such things as marriage is because government has extended privileges to religion that religion should not have. I'm not saying that Americans shouldn't have a free right to practice their religious beliefs….not at all….that is guaranteed by the Constitution. At the same time, religion should never be equal to or depended on by the State to validate legal and binding contracts.

What should happen is that marriage validation rights should be taken AWAY from religious institutions and religious leaders, altogether. A civil union or domestic partnership contract is all that should be necessary for a couple to qualify for any and all benefits previously reserved for only hetero-married couples. Marriage ceremonies will not be affected by this in the slightest….and the State will still have it's interests covered.

What say ye?

  • larry d.

    With the 'progressives' taking us to a more rational, secular society, I'd think the only rational step for the government to take on this issue would be to stop recognizing marriages or civil unions in any form.

    The state can raise children more economically, and of course more effectively as far as building social unity. That would also leave adults free to do as they please–hitch and unhitch without the false feelings of guilt that religion has pressed upon us.

    Why should singles or others without children be taxed differently than those who follow such an obsolete cultural practice as marriage? Currently, we are punishing those who have had abortions and those who practice protected sex. It's sexist, racist and plain old mean.

  • Bubba

    People do not need to get married by a member of the clergy, they choose to do so. I guess it is a good thing the United States Constitution is much more difficult to change. Perhaps you should have spent your time today writing about state officials campaigning for political candidates on state time using state resources. Or perhaps state officals doing background checks for certain political candidates on those who dare to question them. I guess as long as democrats are doing it for Obama they are excused. Maybe somebody should have taken her golfing so she would be in really big trouble.

  • Bubba

    By the way Rev, the numbers you quote are pretty close to the 52% to 46% you claim is a landslide and mandate for President-elect Obama to govern (or rule) as he wishes. Therefore how dare you go against the will of the people. You are certainly not one of those hypocrites who only claim a mandate when you are in favor of the policy, are you? Before any of you knucleheads start calling me a hater or gay-basher I actually support gay marriage rights.

  • Roy

    Great post Rev,
    I agree that the states should get out of the marriage business and get into civil unions. If two people want to be married in the eyes of God they should go to a church. But if they want to get "legally joined" they should go to a government office and sign some documents in the presence of a lawyer. Any adult should be able to legally join another consenting adult regardless of sex.

    I would propose to take it a step further and have those that do wish to sign up for such a civil union must also sign documents agreeing how the assets of the couple are divided if the union needs to be dissolved. Imagine the time and money saved if all people were forced to agree to some sort of pre-nup.

  • The Reverend

    I'm not going to call you anything Bubba.

    Yes, in Calif. it was a clearcut victory for anti-gay marriage forces. I'm certainly not arguing against that. And I don't want to go against the will of the people….IF…the will of the people is fully Constitutional.

    larry: Man, you must break through that crust of cynicism you're covered in right now. I think I know what you're getting at….but now really….do people want the government to raise their children? I know there are exceptions…but most people are responsible folks following their pursuit of happiness. I'm not against personal accountability, in any way….

    I do have some equal justice and fairness beefs with our tax code, however. And I really have a huge complaint about tax-exempt status for religious organizations. I'll get to that topic too.

  • jimmy james

    Bubba,

    A constitutional democracy is meant to protect the rights of people, especially those in the minority, not to take rights away. You conflate any mandate Obama may claim with his victory with the voters who reject gay marriage. If we were putting the "will of the people" on social items up for a vote there was a time when a majority would have voted to deny the rights of women to vote or deny people of different races to marry.

  • The Reverend

    Roy and I have found common ground.

    That's a good thing.

  • Bubba

    Jimmy James,

    As you can see from the my first post. I do actually say it is a good thing that the US Constitution is much harder to change than the California Constitution. I was just pulling the Rev's chain a little bit by bringing up the landslide and mandate terminology. And, as a matter of fact, women were denied the right to vote for a long period of time in this country. It was the "will of the people".

  • larry d.

    The government is almost raising our children now, Reverend. And Obama would like to increase it's role in that regard with universal pre-school and mandatory volunteerism after high school.

    Get on the bus, man.

  • The Reverend

    You should be FOR mandatory volunteerism. That falls in the personal responsibility category. Universal pre-school, I think, is a good thing.

    But even with pre-K, the government is not raising our children anymore than it was when we spent 7 hours a day in elementary school with teachers and friends and an equal amount of time with our family each day.

  • Tom B

    My problem with these types of amendments is that we are placing civil rights up to popular vote. Our Constitution makes it clear that everyone is seen as equal by our government. I believe that I have stated that before in one of my comments. It is not a good thing when minorities’ rights are granted or taken away from the ballot box.

    I happen to be gay and partnered for 19 years this coming week. We pay taxes, participate in our neighborhood and community and are faithful to one another. It saddens me that Ohio has deemed me a second class citizen and not worthy of equal rights in terms of taxation, inheritance and legal protection.

    I also happen to be heavily involved in GLBT activism in a mainstream Christian church. The issue of same sex marriage is directly tied to the Church and its influence on American government. There is a definite division between civil marriage and church marriage. Many Christians assert that to recognize civil marriage of GLBT people is to open the doors to challenge the recognition of same sex marriage in the church. This would not be the case. I believe the separation of church and state should be upheld in these cases.

    The real issue at hand here is financial issues fanned by the flames of fear. Christian church attendance has been on a downward swing over the past 40 years. Finances are tight in most congregations. The fear of recognizing same sex rights by the church are rooted in the fact that some in a denomination may walk away or splinter off. This puts the faith in a further financial crisis. I challenge congregations to consider what harm they do by looking the other way and excluding GLBT from their pews. Perhaps they should live their faith and let faith take them in the correct direction. Excuse my taking a few minutes to express my frustration with the Church and GLBT people. It wandered off topic.

    What do GLBT people want in terms of same sex marriage? They only want equal treatment under the law. They want the right to have their relationship recognized by the sate. They want to share in the benefits and burdens of society just as straight married couples do. They want no special treatment. The majority of GLBT people have turned from the Church that alienates and persecutes them. They do not want a government that makes demands on the Church to link civil marriage to church recognized marriage. That is the bottom line what I would like.

  • averagejoe5

    Mandatory volunteerism? hhhmmmmmm. Is that like cruel kindness or controlled chaos.

  • The Reverend

    It's like "compassionate conservatism."

    Tom B: Thank you for your comment. Civil rights should never be subjected to a popular vote. Ever. I also appreciate you sharing your perspective from inside organized Christianity. It never ceases to amaze me how the followers of Jesus can come up with excuses not to love their neighbor.

  • larry d.

    No one's provided any reason why the state should recognize any marriage whatsoever. A truly secular government would not.

  • averagejoe5

    Rev – conservatism is compassionate. It all depends on your definition of the terms

  • averagejoe5

    And which side of the aisle you're on.

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