Joe The Plumber: A Review

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/10/29/eveningnews/realitycheck/main4557520.shtml

But what's so outrageous about a $40,000 a year working man sharing the stage with a couple politicians? Or a working man voting for what he thinks is right, rather than what will result in an immediate but small payoff? And no one mentions the Bush tax cuts that will surely expire with Obama and a Dem Congress in 2010–for Obama to talk about middle class tax cuts is patently dishonest.

I used to think there's no one the liberals hate worse than a conservative African American, but we can add conservative women and conservative working people to that now.

Mary, does that sound fair to you? You keep 600 and send in 400 to be mismanaged and to be used for things that don't benefit you in the least. Don't forget to add 15% Social Security and then state and local to that also and you are over 50%. So if you make 250k you keep 115K. Meanwhile the people that are benefiting from your hard work many times are people that have decided not to work. Does this sound right to you. I remember once making 170K and giving 88k in taxes and SS and the rest. All this without even a Kiss.

Tell me, does that sound fair? Meanwhile I have a cousin that lived with her husband that was getting $2800 per month in disability for depression. She divorced him so that she could get the same. They live together and make about 50K in total disability payments. She went to 6 schools and got certified in 6 different trades, all on the taxpayers dime, but made no where near the money she is making on disability. She said it wasn't worth her time to work when the govt would give her more not to work.
Go figure huh……

Joe lazy? He wants to live the American Dream and be able to keep a fair amount of it. It is his sweat that will build his business, not clyde in the hood that is playing nintendo all day eating what he wants with free rent and air conditioning. Why should clyde get a job? He has it made on Joe's sweat.

Is it fair when one person is born into a billionaire family and another is born into a homeless family? Is that fair?

Life ain't fair.

Has it been fair for the top 2% to have benefited by so much over the last 8 years….while regular workers saw their wages decrease? Is that what fair looks like?

More questions….was it fair when Reagan increased the percentage and the cap on payroll taxes? Was Reagan being a socialist then?

Was Teddy Roosevelt being fair when he introduced the progressive income tax? Was he being fair, you know, as a conservative Republican? Or was he a socialist too?

The radical extremism witnessed in the "socialism" sceeching is not only misguided and devoid of historical context, but when you throw in the welfare bashing…..it becomes hateful as well.

Those who are criticizing Obama for returning the tax rate for the top 5% to the Clinton era tax rate are either rich already or totally mean spirited towards those less fortunate.

Finally, those who point to welfare recipients to cast blame and bitterness….are bitter themselves. Hey, if you don't want to work…..give up everything you have and become a welfare recipient yourself. Nothing new about any of this…..after all, Father Ronnie set the example by bashing fictitious Cadillac driving welfare queens.

And a special comment for my bud, larry.

Joe the phony plumber wasn't asking a "for instance." He said, specifically, he was thinking about buying the business he worked for.

This…

"a 30-percent tax rate on those who are thinking about it might stop them, or cause them to hire one less employee."

Well then larry, tell me….please tell me…..why it is that with historically deep tax cuts over the last 8 years…..why is it that we're losing jobs? Hmmm?

And this….

"A $500 or $1000 annual check for those who don't make enough money to pay federal income taxes isn't going to change their lives, either."

If that's true than why did all the, you know, conservatives vote twice for those $600 and $1200 checks to Americans? By using your thinking here, the earned income tax credit is a worthless waste of time as well.

Finally, there's absolutely nothing wrong with anybody sharing the stage with politicians. That's not the point, of course. What's messed up is that the guy sharing the stage is shilling for something that won't benefit him in the least, while pretending he's someone he's not. He's basically a fraud….but then that's why FOX staged the gotcha moment in the first place.

Any guesses on the final # will be on the tax threshhold. First it was no one under 250,000 would see higher taxes. then 200,000. Then 150,000. Where will it end?

This of course assumes you believe his premise of tax cuts at all, which I do not.

That's the problem Ben….you think he's lying. You're too used to the liars in the GOP.

Family…$250K

Single…$200K

Please, my good GOP blog bud, move away from the extremists in your party. There will be no future there after Tuesday.

Now tell me honestly….hasn't The Reverend been telling you the truth all along?

Does it feel good to attack a fellow citizen for asking The One a question during an election?

"averagejoe5 Says:

October 31st, 2008 at 12:43 pm
Mary, does that sound fair to you? You keep 600 and send in 400 to be mismanaged and to be used for things that don't benefit you in the least. Don't forget to add 15% Social Security "
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averagejoe5:

You only pay Social Security on income up to something like $105,000 anyway so on over half of that $250,000 income you pay NO social securtity taxes!

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I don't see how a 3% increase on those making over $250K back to the levels seen during the Clinton administration is so bad. Seems like business was pretty good during his administration.

I also don't understand why so many republicans think Obama will take all their money away when in fact they don't make anything near the $250K required to be taxed more then under McCain. Even with Obama's increased federal spending the deficit under Obama is projected to be lower then under McCain.

But then again I hear McCain is magically going to balance the budget during his first term, when in fact his tax cuts, health care plan, and continued presence in Iraq add up to far more spending the Obama has planned.

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Finally under 'S' corportations if you hire more people the pie is split more ways and you end up being below the $250K threshold for each person anyways. And if not convert to a 'C' corporation where you have more right offs, set your own salary below the highest tax rate cutoff and if you still show any profits invest in your company or hire more workers and avoid nearly all corporate taxes.

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I guess Joe the Plumber was just thinking ahead to when he is a country music star making millions and saving big money under McCain!

Attacking? No one's attacking except you, larry. All we're trying to do is understand why someone who hasn't benefited, isn't benefiting nor will EVER benefit from current Republican tax policy would support a ticket that extends, nay, bolsters that tax policy?

Now we are seeing that he has possible book, music and political deals lined up for him, which would lead to…you know, a lot of money. The kind of money that would begrudge some, more selfish individuals, to Obama's tax plan.

Now would a smart guy like you REALLY say that none of that was arranged, or at least CONSIDERED before-hand? Come on, man…it sounds just like the kind of operations we've seen for the last eight years of the CURRENT administration. Joe the Plumber is a sell-out opportunist, just like his hero John McCain. They belong together.

Actually Rev Teddy Rossevelt was a progressive Republican, not a conservative Republican. He was most opposed by the conservatives. Because Teddy ran as a third party candidate in the 1916 (sorry not sure of the date) election Woodrow Wilson won and the US eventually joined the First World War. He also was a trust buster and did more to help the lot of Blacks than any president since Lincoln and up to Eisenhower. He was hardly a conservative by any stretch of the imagination.

Anyone else think Joe was a plant? He did his job and now he is tight with the McCain ticket.

averagejoe5 — when I worked I would have like to keep more for myself — who would not have — but it never stopped me from working harder and going after promotions for more money. My Father told me is was sad to see someone who was complacent when they were young. He said "go for it." For me it paid off. Unfortunately it is not as easy for the average joe to get ahead and do well today as it was for me the last 30+ years. I was really able to live the American dream. Obama may not be able to change things but I am sure McCain will not be able to do so. At his age it is his time to be complacent.

In the interests of the truth, Joe the plumber benefitted from Bush tax policy more than from Clinton tax policy. Middle class taxes were much higher under Clinton. Obama's tax cuts for the middle class are relatively tiny. The real bad part of Obama's plan is raising taxes on investment and business revenue. When you burden business it causes job losses, and will more than offset the benefits of any Obama handouts to the poorer among us. Formulating tax policy isn't simply about handing this guy money or that guy money in order to get votes or for "fairness", it's about setting up the best framework to maximize economic growth for the entire country. We could give everybody $20,000 to sit home on their hands and then call ourselves caring and compassionate, but it would be very destructive to the country, so we shouldn't do it. If we are such a selfish people that we will vote for a candidate simply because he offers us a small check, then we might as well give it up, because such an attitude will collapse the nation.

mary,
How could Joe be a plant ? Joe didn't go looking for Obama, Obama came to Joe's neighborhood.

When I watched the video of the whole Joe/ Obama thing Obama was shaking hands with people — Obama on one side of a rope and the people on the other. Joe pushed his way through the crowd of people and reached over the rope to shake Obama's hand and asked his questions. The cameras were right there already rolling. I will try to find the video and post it.

This is not the video I originally watched. The one I watched was posted on a blog I read regularly that originated in southern Ohio. This one has Olbermann on it as well but it does clearly show Joe coming through the crown to shake hands with Obama. I thought set up as soon as I saw it especially when I read several places that he is related somehow to some big Republican donor

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3yeTnOrUvB0

King — I fed the horses and now I am on my second cup and I have to tell you I am so glad you asked me your question on how Joe could be a plant. I googled some more to see the video I saw so that I could link it as well as the youtube video. I cannot believe how many versions of this encounter are on the internet — Obama was walking down he street and Joe was playing football when Obama walked up to him — Obama knocked on Joes door — Obama walked over to Joe minding his own business in his front yard — this just goes to show for me just how important it is to investigate, investigate, INVESTIGATE. The video I posted here is clearly just 10 seconds more or less of the same video that has been shown over and over again except this video shows the beginning of the encounter and does anyone see a house or a football or a front yard? Palin and McCain say that "Obama just walked up to Joe and started the conversation and wow "let it be said let it be done." Even without the initial 8-10 seconds of the video cut out it is obvious that it is not a front yard nor is there a football nor a house. They are surrounded by people for crying out loud. I am not sure if anyone has proved yet that he is related to Joseph Wurzlebacher (40 months in prison because of the Keating Five Scandel) but they are both live in the Cincinnati area. I do not care enough to investigate that link.

Bubba: Thanks for more details on the Roughrider.

One question,…..if Teddy was a progressive Republican, why does McCain say he is his hero? I find little in McCain's proposals which would fall into the progressive column.

Mary, how is that a set-up? Did Obama have something to hide or that he shouldn't tell the people? Were Gibson and Couric a set-up to ruin Sarah Palins image? They did.( Americans never gave this woman a chance before ruining her character. Never a conspiracy, she's fending for herself and they analize and twist every word she says. Meanwhile Biden is blubbering making huge gaffes and they are hardly covered.) Should regular Americans be able to ask our leaders questions? I say we shoild be able to interview them like we were hiring them for a job.(This is why they didn't want Obama having the 10 town hall meeting like McCain wanted. His handlers knew the parties true colors would show.)

You are missing the point of this whole thing. It's not whether Obama was set up, it's how he answered the question. The question you should be asking yourself is; did you like the way he answered the question. All the rest is "he said, she said". But NO, as usual the Left, not you, has turned this into another conspiracy. They live on conspiracy and creating havoc. Just watch and read their media.
I personally didnt like the way he answered it. However, I very work hard and sacrifice a great deal to make the money I do and I don't want more of it stolen from me. I am sure you do also, as do most of the people here writing these posts. However, here is what they will say-"he is only taxing the rich and big corporations." Think to yourself, who is going to have to ultimaltely pay for the price increases or job losses? Obama? The rich? No. The middle class. Remember if costs go up what happens? Companies will cut labor or increase prices of goods, basic economics. Look at the Auto and steel industries.
If you have a job and the owner drives a Benz and you drive a Hyundai do you want him to pay more tax because he is making alot of money? Some do. I would rather the owner pay his fair share and have the extra cash to keep the company strong, this way I keep a job. Again look at the steel and auto industries
From an economic standpoint our middle class is living the lives of the rich, compared to Europe Africa, Asia, Central and South America etc. Many have decided to live in mansions on a trailer park budget. If they didn't over extend themselves and lived well within their means, they wouldn't be in their predicament. I lived in a trailer park once and made about 60K per year. I lived an extremely worry free life.

In this election, to make a solid decision you will have to find the answers for yourself. Ask yourself the questions important to you and then look at the truths that glare at you in the face. If you do this you can make a good decision that is good for you.
You shouldn't have to defend your candidate for a lifetime of being in cahoots with terrorists and criminals and political activists that hate america. If these things are okay with you then vote that way.
You shouldn't have to defend your candidate for sitting in a pew listening to racial hatred for 20 years.
You shouldn't have to defend your candidates lack of experience. You shouldn't say "well look at Sarah Palin". Obama is going to be the Pres not the VP and he has less leadership experieince than her.
If you believe in weakening our Defense by 25% and that negotiation is the better way to handle our enemies. Vote that way. (Do you remember the Iranians holding our hostages for 444 days while Carter tried this tactic.) We must have a strong defense to be respected. Who cares if they like us, we need them to fear us. This is how you remain a superpower.
If you beleive that not drilling is a good thing because it protects wildlife and pristeen habitats. Then vote that way. If you realize that having our own resources availbale to us and NOT relying on the world to sell us 60% of our oil, which lets other countries determine our gas prices and ultimatley the ability for us to defend ourselves then vote that way.
If you think that our woes are the fault of Bush then vote that way, but look at what the candidate voted for. Bush was right in 90% of his decisions. The left and libs have villanized him and blame him for more than deserves.
If you want to pay higher energy costs because one candidate doesnt want to utilize our own resources then vote that way. if you like the way prices are now, then vote that way. (Remember the Dems told you that gas would go down 4 cents in 10 years if we drilled. George Bush lifted the off shore drilling ban and gas went down $2.24 cents per gallon in 2 months. Did Bush make the right decision? Of course.)

America has taken the role of the Father of the world. Militarily and monetarily. It's why we are safe and our poor are fat. We still live in the greatest country on earth.(Our dollar is the gold standard. So goes the dollar, so goes the world) We take care of disputes. We take care of the poor. We react in times of tragedy. All the while being told how horrible we are by other leaders in other countries and by our own media.` In this election, one candidate wants to make us the uncle living in grandma's basement, the other want to keep us the father of the world. It is safer being with the weak uncle or being with your father? Don't defend them investigate them.

No averagejoe5 you are missing the point. You did not like what Obama's answer was and I did not have a problem with it. That is a legitimate difference of opinion and I agree with many of the statements you made but I do not have a problem with Obams's overall statement. But that was not the point of this post. To hear especially Palin and to a lesser extent McCain tell the story. Here is good old Joe the Plummer in his front yard sitting around or tossing the football or even in his house. In any event Joe is minding his own business. And up walks Obama who starts a conversation with good old Joe and so good old Joe asks Obama a question and all the cameras are there to record his answer. He answer wasn't a secret — I had heard and read it before. Obama answers Joe's questions and a few hours later Obama is a Socialist and not only is he a Socialist he brought it on himself by goin' over to good old Joe and starting a conversation with him bothering him as it is. Poor Obama says Palin he got him self in trouble.; Good old Joe is smarter than Obama bla bla bla bla. Oh Pleeeeze. I am sick of the lies in this campaign. Aren't you staunch Republicans — those of you that love and support your party — disgusted with the way McCain has run this campaign. Do you really think he has done right by you and your party? As the Republican candidate he owed you more. A better VP choice, more facts, less lies and deceit, bla bla bla. Are you proud of him?

Mary – then vote that way. Obama is a socialist, read his platform. The Democratic Party Platform is a socialist platform. We see what that has gotten us. We have known that for months. He hangs with socialists/communist his main backer George Soros is a socialist/communist. The problem is he answered a question in front of the media and was caught stating what he really means. If you are okay voting that way then do it. The Dems make it seem as though he was ambushed. He was asked a question by a citizen and all of a sudden this guy is being investigated by people using government computers and being treated like a terrorist? Please. Read about the rise of socialist governments and the way they take over.
Yes I am very proud of McCain and Sarah Palin. The negative campaign has been in Obama's camp. Did they give Palin a chance. No from the first statment about her they have done nothing but torn this woman down. Even before we got to hear her talk, the media had her stories out about her and her kids, family, position etc and guess what. None have stuck. The problem is that even with his lies and chaning of his mind, terror ties, socialistcommunist sympathizer ties and racist activist ties and other disturbing attributes and you guys are ignoring it and putting him in office. These are not made up things these are things looking at you in the face.

I've put this question to King…so averagejoe…why don't you take a crack at it?

In 1986, when Father Ronald Reagan signed into law a bill substantially increasing the earned income tax credit, basically taking tax dollars and giving them to people who paid no taxes, was he, then, a filthy socialist for doing so?

In 1983, when conservative Father Ronald Reagan signed into law new legislation raising the income cap on payroll taxes, thus strenghtening Social Security….was he, then, acting as a socialist or communist agent?

If he was ….can't you see your own hypocrisy now calling Obama a socialist?

If he wasn't….please spell out the reasons why not.

averagejoe5 — We have a difference of opinion and that is ok. The thing that puzzles me over and over is that most Republicans when asked why they support McCain will first say emphatically why the do not support Obama. I have to then ask them do they support McCain or so they choose him because he is the lesser of two evils. What policies of McCains make them want to vote for him. I hope everyone takes the time to answer that question before they vote no matter who they support. Which issues are important to you and who do you think will give you what you are looking for — you hope. I sincerely hope if McCain is elected he does not dissapoint you.

Mary – I, like most everyone else that participate here in these blogs have been political fanatics since the election began. We agree or disagree but at the least may teach each other. We aren't taking our votes for granted. I have learned a great deal from Rev, Da King, Ben, Larry and the like.

Why do I like McCain? My values match up more with what he wants to do than the things Obama wants to do. Neither of us are wrong. (I wrote the specifics 3 times but for some reason when I write that much it won't go through. So I condensed it to one line.) We must vote with our hearts and our percieved truth.

As far as the better of 2 evils, I hate when people say that.
Neither of these men are evil. Neither are Sarah or Joe stupid.(Neither is "W" or Cheney, nor was Bill Clinton evil or stupid. They did the best they could with what they knew and their hardest fight has been with the media) They just have different directions they would like to see the country go. If those values match your values then that is how you'll vote. I feel we have let the media get too strong in this country and they are now forming the opinions and influencing the decisions the average person with lies and distortions and electing our officials. I include in the list liars and distorters All the major news networks and talk show hosts on radio and TV. (I do find Fox less biased in their reporting of mainstream events.) I just hate the lies and nonsense. Here is an example

(I saw a commercial by a 527 today that said McCain and Palin will kill Roe v Wade. Could that really happen? Never in a million years. You could count on half of one hand the number of decisions like that that have been overturned. It doesn't happen. It was a lie. Could it have been a 2 edged sword and urge those pro-lifers on the fence or that weren't voting to vote. Sure.)
How did I make my decision?
Instead of wading through the murkiness of the gossip columnists and talking heads. I pretty much made up my mind the night of the question and answer period between them at that church. The name of the church slips my mind. Then formed my vote by their associations and their platforms and the platforms of the parties and how they and their parties voted on issues important to me
As far as McCain:
I believe in his economic plan. We must take care of the companies that are left here, unionizing and taxing them more will make them head to a country that will do this for them. They will just import their wares here at a much lower price. Also freedom to succeed is what has made America the richest and most influential country in the world. We have more opportunity and have created more success stories than any other country in the world in my opinion. In America if you work hard and you believe in yourself and you have an idea that can make you successful, you will be successful. In my opinion laziness and too many govt programs hurt and steal the dreams of the average person.
His energy plan. For the most powerful country in the world to import 60% of their primary fuel source is reprehensible in my eyes. This puts us at the mercy of the world and our enemies. We must drill in our country. We must quit importing oil from the middle east and venzeula. We must remain strong supporters of NAFTA and Canada. NAFTA isn't what most people think it is. They have demonized it when actually it isn't really a bad thing. We must have a comprehensive energy plan to create new sources. We can do this without being held hostage, like Nancy and Reid and Gore have attempted.
His defense plan. This is a huge deal maker for McCain in my mind. We can't afford to weaken our defense in this volatile environment no matter how good of a speaker Obama is or how big of a world unifier he thinks he will be, as I said look a Jimmy Carter's record. A 25% reduction in defense is putting our country at risk for an attack and greatly reduces our ability to defend ourselves or other interests in the world. Disarming our Nuke defense when others have it and expect others to follow suit is ridiculous and putting America in harms way.
I like Sarah Palin and what she has done and accomplished and I like her xeal and love of America and it's freedoms.
I also feel that there is a great deal of blame on "W" that isn't warranted. Until our Congress accepts their actions and the people vote them out our country is going to remain separated and lobbiests will continue winning. The he said / she said politics will continue. I like that McCain is liberal enough to reach across party lines. I don't think we can give Pelosi and Reid the power of a veto proof congress. (If you get a chance listen to the endorsements of George Soros, study his philosophies. This man is, and his groups are, the total backing of the Democrat Party.) It's like Obama clings to racists, communists, socialists and crooks. He even mention in "Dreams of My Father" that in college he sought out and hung with people that thought outside the norm of mainstream thinking and leaned toward the far far left side of political views and took up issues presented by activist groups.
I also think that Obama has too little experience.
These are some of my views. I won't go on because I don't know if this will transmit. I would welcome a back and forth communication here if The Rev wouldn't mind.
I hope your candidate doesn't disappoint either of us if he gets elected.

Well Rev, Perhaps Progressive 100 years ago is a little more moderate now.

averagejoe5 I agree with you that we cannot continue to import 60% of the oil we use from countries that do not like us very much. I think we need to focus on renewable energy and nuclear. I would support drilling in sensitive areas if I am convinced the oil companies have indeed explored the 68 million acres of oil leases they already have and if the oil is used to benefit America. Oil is sold on the world market and if we drill here under the existing laws that oil can go anywhere. This year natural gas companies in Alaska are selling 91 million cubic feet of natural gas to Japan which by the way contributes to those checks the Alaskans get for each and every citizen. People who heat their homes with natural gas this year will be paying record prices for that gas. The only reason the gas and oil companies are selling the Alaskan gas to Japan is to keep the prices high.

Speaking of Alaska. I do not support Sarah Palin. The media is not her problem. Her lack of knowledge and curiosity is the problem. I am concerned that she could become President should something happen to McCain. She is pro-life and a creationist. My primary concern is not that Roe v Wade be overturned but the attitude of abstinence only education and policies. The best way to stop abortion is by contraception and abstinence but education is key. I am a scientist I cannot support someone who believes the earth is only 6000 years old. No way it goes against everything I have learned about the natural world. If averagejoe or sue or hank is a creationist I have not problem with that. They are not directing the scientific policy of America. I have a problem with the whole evangelical – fundamentalist Christian influence in out government. People I know with these beliefs take too much on faith and not just in the religious sense. They do not question they just believe what they are told about all sorts of things. America needs educated, informed, questioning, curious citizens. That is the only way to change things in this government

I am going to fold economy into this one. I have a huge problem with the lack of regulation promulgated by the republican party – from pet food to lead in toys, to melamine in milk to the economy. Granted in a free market if someone makes a bad product people will not buy it and it is self-regulating. But and this is a big but when government interferes in the free market economy with things like artificially low interest rates or with get out of jail free cards attached to safety regulation so that consumers cannot sue then the free market economy cannot work so there must be regulation. From the EPA to the FDA, to the SEC, etc etc republicans have scraped regulation and left us at the mercy of big money and big companies importing and selling and polluting and on and on.

Defense. We cannot have a big defense without a thriving economy — we can't afford it. We cannot solve the problems of this world – the ones that affect the whole world – global warming, famine, terrorism, aids, energy and others by war. We have to talk to the rest of the world. We can work all day on one of these world wide problems but if the rest of the world does not join in it will be for naught. And we cannot help solve the problems of the globe unless we can solve out own problems in America.

I just flat out disagree with your comments on socialism or communism or whatever.

I agree with you on NAFTA. I do not agree with al the tax cuts going to big business. I know they will make money and then they will expand and there will be more jobs – in China the way things have been going. There is a huge opportunity out there for jobs and the economy in energy and infractucture repair and development.

I can’t remember what else you wrote. I am writing this in word since the computer I am on is not on the internet. Any way as you can see we do not agree and there is very little chance we will ever agree but that is OK.

Haha ^^ nice, is there a section to follow the RSS feed